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Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread


Calibandar

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Just to elaborate on why Kelhus had to kill Moenghus. As I read it the reasoning went like this.

1) Moenghus is a sinner.

2) His soul is damned.

3) When he comes to believe in the Outside as Kelhus does he will come to the same conclusion as the Consult, that he needs to kill everyone off to avoid damnation.

4) Hence the apocalyptic conspiracies.

On re Drusas surviving. The part that confused me is that Drusas does not seem surprised that he survived. Which made me think that the skin-ward he grasped was really powerful, but I was still confused. Another explanation is that if Iky gets knocked unconscious then the Ciphrang goes away. I like that Iky didn't actually want to kill Drusas, but Drusas would have to realize that in order for him not to be surprised. I just thought it odd that Drusas never thought "Wow, wonder how I survived."

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My other lingering questions:

1) Is Kelhus mad or is the no-god really speaking to him? Maybe both...

2) What is the no-god? this is unanswerable but my spec is that its the obscene incarnation of Shauriatis.

To Calibandor: I think both Aurax and Aurang are bound to a Synthese. We saw the other one at the end of TWP.

I thought it was cool how Moenghus went down the wrong path by choosing to learn Psukhe. If he would have learned the Gnosis he could have accomplished the TTT and not had to call for Kelhus.

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1) Is Kelhus mad or is the no-god really speaking to him? Maybe both

I certainly don't think Kellhus is the one who's mad. The No-God would sooner qualify ;)

I don't doubt that the No-God really spoke to him in his dreams. It puzzled me that Moenghus would find this so hard to believe. This connection between the two will be further explored in Aspect Emperor I'm sure. There is also the idea that Kellhus really is the antithesis of Mog Pharau in that he may really be the Son of God.

2) Mog Pharau isn't Shauriatis. Mog Pharau existed as an entity before Shauriatis becmae who he is now supposed to be. The No-God is clearly a far more alien and powerful entity. Which is not to sat that the Grandvizier may not prove to be very interesting on his own of course.

To Calibandor: I think both Aurax and Aurang are bound to a Synthese. We saw the other one at the end of TWP.

Aurax didn't seem to be bound to a Synthese in TWP as far as I can recall. It had a truly grotesque form, very alien. Was there anything specific you recall about a Synthese?

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As for Aurax, I'm not so certain anymore. Reason to think he's not a Synthese: he talks in italics and not within quotation marks. On the other hand that's how the Synthese sometimes talks to Kelhus in the Esmi takeover scene of TTT.

Reason to think he is Synthese:

Save where it was mottled by black cancerous spots, its skin was translucent, and sheathed about a great flared skull shaped like an oyster set on edge. And within the gaping jaws of that skull was fused another, more manlike, so that an almost human face grinned from its watery features.

The bit about a face fused onto some non-manlike creature sounds like a Synthese, but its possible that its really what it looks like. I suppose that this is a question that Bakker might answer on the other forum.

On the no-god bit, can you point to something that confirms that he was around before he was born into the world? I admit my spec is far-fetched but I didn't see anything to truly rule it out. Shauriatis disappeared a thousand years before the no-god was born.

Edit: Asked question on Bakker forum here. He might answer in a few days.

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As for Aurax, I'm not so certain anymore. Reason to think he's not a Synthese: he talks in italics and not within quotation marks. On the other hand that's how the Synthese sometimes talks to Kelhus in the Esmi takeover scene of TTT.

Reason to think he is Synthese:

The bit about a face fused onto some non-manlike creature sounds like a Synthese, but its possible that its really what it looks like. I suppose that this is a question that Bakker might answer on the other forum.

On the no-god bit, can you point to something that confirms that he was around before he was born into the world? I admit my spec is far-fetched but I didn't see anything to truly rule it out. Shauriatis disappeared a thousand years before the no-god was born.

Edit: Asked question on Bakker forum here. He might answer in a few days.

Can someone provide more details on Shauriatis?

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Shaeonanra (c. 1086 - ) - "Gift of Light" The Grandvizier of the Mangaecca who, according to legend, went mad studying the Incu-Holoinas, and whose subsequent acts would eventually see him convicted of impiety and his School outlawed in 1123. The greatest prodigy of his age, Shaeonanra claimed to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery. He reputedly spent his life investigating various soul-trapping sorceries in the hope of avoiding passage to the Outside--and to great effect, given that he allegedly continues to live some three thousand years afterward, though in an obscene and unnatural manner. By the fourteenth century the Trysean annals began referring to him as Shauriatas, the "Cheater of Gods."
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Why does Moenghus have to die, according to Kellhus? Why does he do it? I've read the section a couple of times but I do not get a proper explanation. I guess the closest I come to is that Kellhus fears that Moenghus wishes to take his place and become Aspect Emperor instead, but Kellhus then speaks of "apocalyptic conspiracies" and " a counterfeit war against Golgotterath". Is he saying that Moenghus was or would have been in league with the No-God? Because given everything else we hear, that would be absurd. Moenghus strongly opposed them as much as he could, that much is clear. So why kill him?

Kellhus killed Moenghus because Moenghus, being Dunyain, would use the Logros to come to the same conclusion that the Consult did many thousands of years ago - that he was damned for his sins, and the only way to avoid damnation in the afterlife was to reap such destruction in the world that it would be sealed from the Outside.

2) I simply cannot see how Moenghus dies. Kellhus has stabbed him. Cnaiur comes to him, and the following happens:

Moenghus was Cishaurim. Cishaurim are just as prone to the Chorae as other sorcerors. However, I *think* that Cnauir didn't realise that Moenghus was Cishaurim. He reached out to touch him, with the hand he was grasping his Chorae with brushed Moenghus' skin.

Or maybe he did it deliberately, I wasn't too sure either. But I got the impression that it was just an accident on Cnaiur's part, an irony that Meonghus, who divined so many possible outcomes, was slain by happenstance.

3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one?

I didn't quite get this either. I thought maybe Iyukus died in the battle, freeing the Ciphrang qwho promptly dumped Akka on the beach. But then Iyokus shows up in that final scene.

4) Why did the Ciphrang go to the tent in which Little Moenghus lay, the one guarded by the single Hundred Pillars guardsmen? Presumably to ask after Achamian's whereabouts, as he later does, but the whole scene seemed rather odd to me.

It was to find Akka.

5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy?

I think it might be something to do with Chorae turning sorceror's into salt. Also, I think Aurang was just luring the boy close so he could do something perverted to him, the Inchoroi being the sadistic bastards that they are.

6) On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there?

Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...?

His favourite concubine had been kidnapped by the Consult. It's revealed in the appendix.

7) Any idea what's up with that final Seswatha dream Achamian has, in which he sees Anaxophus becoming some sort of puppet of the No-God, repeating all his words just like the Sranc? What does this indicate?

I think this ties into Akka's declaration when facing Kellhus. Kellhus proclaimed the old word 'dead', and Akka asked if that meant an Apocalypse had happened. I think it is foreshadowing that Kellhus' actions will bring on the Second Apocalypse, rather than avert it.

My own question;

In the glossary it says Kellhus performed 3 Miracles. The first was finding water in the desert, the second was the Circumfixion. What was the third?

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And big Congrats to Dylanfanatic!!! Who got a mention in the TTT acknowledgments section.

Calibander, who started this thread, got mentioned under his Mithfanion alias in both WP and TTT, as well. (hope I didn't blow your secret identity ;) )

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UnJon, from the description it sounds like Shauriatas started out human? I guess all the sorcerors of the Mangaecca school were originally human until they discovered the Ark and started playing with their genes, mixing with the inchoroi etc... unless I've totally got the wrong idea here.

I don't think he's the No-God though, it sounds like the No-God is a being they discovered among the darkest of the inchoroi weapons, something like an anti-god from another universe who they were able (briefly) to bring into being in this one.

Everyone talks about how shocking the ending to TTT was and how you'll either love it or hate it.... I'm a little lost by that. What was shocking about the ending? Aside from Achamian throwing a tantrum at the very end and stalking out (predictably stupid that; he was a sympathetic character for a while but after that I'm starting to think it would be no big loss if he didn't appear much in the Aspect Emperor and beyond).

Hope Cnaiur is really really dead. What a whiner/weeper faggott :)

I was surprised though that Conphas died, and in the fashion he died.

Anyone else wonder whether maybe Khellus is now in an unstoppably superior position? He's basically got the whole civilized world under his control now, and with his Dunyain skills he's not like to lose that position. In addition he's the most-badass sorceror... I'm most curious how the Consult is going to avoid getting wiped off the map... seems like with Khellus in charge it'd take all of a year or so for him to find and destroy Golgotterath and all the Consult in very short order.

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My own question;

In the glossary it says Kellhus performed 3 Miracles. The first was finding water in the desert, the second was the Circumfixion. What was the third?

I assumed that the third was his appearance and sorcery at the battle of Shimeh and that Bakker let the spoiler through. Though that was just my guess because I was confused about that entry also.

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I thought it was maybe that as well. But while spectacular, it doesn't quite seem miraculous. At least, not on the same level as the previous two.

DanielDaresU;

Achamian throwing a tantrum at the very end and stalking out (predictably stupid that; he was a sympathetic character for a while but after that I'm starting to think it would be no big loss if he didn't appear much in the Aspect Emperor and beyond).

I thought the way Akka ended the book was great, standing there dishing out crap left right and center. Before that his personality was becoming a bit annoying, but I was glad to see him finally stand up for himself.

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Interesting questions (that have been answered via the angles that are applicable), my own question is the bigger picture in regards to the book itsef. What level of enjoyment did TTT give you, and thus the entire Prince of Nothing sequence? I ask, because my own praise has been rather, overwhelmingly strong (and the more i ponder it the better I think of it) , regarding the entire sequence. Cal, I know you're a Hobb fan, where do you think this sequence sits in comparison to your favorite Hobb arc?

5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy?

This is the question that I would most like an answer to and I only hope I'm not over emphasising the relevance of this scene, but going back and reading it, and considering placement it just has to be significant.

I have a TTT question of my own:

8) What becomes of Cnaiur? I reread that scene more than once and am just not sure. Did the Serwe skin-spy kill him, were they transported away by Aurang, did he just faint?

I love the character but I think I would be slighlty disappointed if he wasn't dead. Alive, I feel it diminishes that scene. If we never seem him again - that would be classic.

I assumed that the third was his appearance and sorcery at the battle of Shimeh and that Bakker let the spoiler through. Though that was just my guess because I was confused about that entry also.

Perhaps accomplishing this (which relates to unJon's reply)?:

“The ‘Third Phrase’ was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cunuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,†he lied. ‘It’s impossible.â€-

Just a guess, I never considered it.

What did everyone think of Ikurei Conphas' fate?

And big Congrats to Dylanfanatic!!! Who got a mention in the TTT acknowledgments section.

Calibande, who started this thread, got mentioned under his Mithfanion alias in both WP and TTT, as well. (hope I didn't blow your secret identity wink.gif )

I want to say this was very cool. As readers, I'm sure nobody expects an author to do more than write books we enjoy and admire, and you only hope you may have said or offered something that the author appreciated, and even then you never think of or require any response from an author in return. I get to communicate with many authors, but I was blown away by the mention in TTT (I'm Ainulindale), Very much appreciated. It won't buy a positive review :D for his next book, but definitely has earned my respect and most humble thanks!

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Interesting questions (that have been answered via the angles that are applicable), my own question is the bigger picture in regards to the book itsef. What level of enjoyment did TTT give you, and thus the entire Prince of Nothing sequence? I ask, because my own praise has been rather, overwhelmingly strong (and the more i ponder it the better I think of it) , regarding the entire sequence.

I loved the whole series and thought that TTT ended strongly. Drusas was my favorite character throughout and the ending with him parelleling the schism between Seswatha and Celemomas was well foreshadowed and well executed.

What did everyone think of Ikurei Conphas' fate?

I loved Conphas but was glad he died. Though I had forgoten all of the history between Conphas and Saubon so when I read it I was like, "WTF?"

I was blown away by the mention in TTT (I'm Ainulindale), Very much appreciated. It won't buy a positive review :D for his next book, but definitely has earned my respect and most humble thanks!

Big Congrats all around!!

I love the character (Cnauir) but I think I would be slighlty disappointed if he wasn't dead. Alive, I feel it diminishes that scene. If we never seem him again - that would be classic.

I disagree. I think this is similar to those who think that the Hound in ASOIAF should never reappear. I think that the reappearence is of the Hound has been well foreshadowed and would be cool. Same with Cnauir. A twisted Cnauir that is kind of unrecognizable because the Inchoroi have worked the Tekne on him....how cool would that be. Someone has to lead the Scylvendi for the no-god.

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I disagree. I think this is similar to those who think that the Hound in ASOIAF should never reappear. I think that the reappearence is of the Hound has been well foreshadowed and would be cool. Same with Cnauir. A twisted Cnauir that is kind of unrecognizable because the Inchoroi have worked the Tekne on him....how cool would that be. Someone has to lead the Scylvendi for the no-god.

I think with Martin you're talking about a much larger relevant cast. The Hound is a terrific character - no doubt - but his reentry just wouldn't be as significant, as a character like Cnair who is one of the 3-5 major characters in this sequence. I see where you're coming from but I liken it a but more with Uncat, which I think is one of the worst elements in the series for me presently. Whether the Hound returns or not (and I think he is) doesn't matter to me in any way, although he is a wonderful character. Of course the Hound's significance could evolve into something greater, at this point in the seriesm bringing back that character wouldn't have the same direct implications to the plot as would Cnaiur.

For me, I just feel the road to Moengus is a very apt ending for him, and what was bulding up through the entire series. I hope the Consult don't turn into a little bit of an out in regards to keeping characters around.

Scott seemed to be in crusie control until a very compelling last portion of the novel, and I think the ramifications of the last portion of novel lose some punch if Cnaiur returns. Now obviously, Cnaiur could reapper in some briliant manner that will make me rethink my stance, but as of right now, I like the idea of never seeing him again.

I loved Conphas but was glad he died. Though I had forgoten all of the history between Conphas and Saubon so when I read it I was like, "WTF?"

I was the same! I had to go plowing througt text again!

Someone has to lead the Scylvendi for the no-god.

I got the feeling he's the type who will have a lot of options, and has a persuasive way about him :D

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Time to do this in a mostly bassackwards fashion:

First off, Cnaiür's story is over. The conclusions can be interpreted as they will, but here are some of Bakker's comments, the first in an email exchange we had (and no, I won't share everything else):

Closing Cnaiur with such ambiguity wasn't something I'd originally intended, but I realized that it was likely the only note I could end on which was true to his character. Even still, I expect to take quite a bit of heat over it.

And then over at his forum a few days ago:

I was afraid of this question, simply because I knew that anyone who asked would likely hate my answer. All I can say is that I thought long and hard about that ending, and had dozens of discussions about it with those who read the first draft. As it stands, I think it's perfect, it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end. Beyond that...

I personally interpret that as him getting a twisted version of the Frodo ending...whether he died or not isn't as important as he ain't comin' back, to use the Southern colloquial there ;)

As for being mentioned in the Acknowledgements section, that was, as Jay says, very cool. Scott's a great guy and I've had the honor of meeting him in Nashville almost two years ago and then going to dinner with him and some of his college buddies from Vanderbilt. Very nice and humble person.

As for the scene at the end, I think it added quite a bit to what is transpiring. Akka was indeed true to himself there, doubting. I think there's more to his skepticism that will be revealed in the future story arcs. And I've never asked Scott this directly, but I suspect there's quite a bit of his personality in the character of Akka...at least the skeptical part.

But here's a question in turn for people here to consider:

This series was about much more than just a bunch of people travelling to fight in a Holy War and meeting with a presumed Prophet. There is a LOT of undercurrents here, things that deal with matters such as Faith, Intent, Politics (or rather the social/personal relationships and the resulting power structures that develop from these relationships), Purpose, Design, Salvation/Damnation, and a whole host of other concepts. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the author is saying a lot more here than what is found within the words of the three volumes.

Anyone want to discuss the meanings of the PoN story?

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Jay, point taken about GRRM having a larger cast of characters. Dylan, thanks for sharing the Bakker comments. Though the parts you share are (intentionally?) ambiguous. He says its the way that Cnaiur's arc had to end. So I would certainly agree that Cnaiur's story re: Moenghus is over. On the other hand, I think that he is certainly not dead. IIRC, he did not take any wounds at the end that we saw. Whether or not he commits suicide after or if the Serwe skin-spy talks him out of it is an open question. I think it would be fine either way to never have him in AE (frodo ending) or to have some Tekne version of him. I think that the Consult would want to keep his intellect as far as War goes, around. He would make an excellent general in his lucid moments.

As far as the "meaning" of PON, I think that probably deserves its own thread, that I'd be happy to start/contribute to, but I need to rush out right now. Off the top of my head the themes that resonated with me were: 1) The inversion of importance of Religion vs. Science compared to the real world. 2) The futility of the ultimate aim of the Logos. 3) The rejection (epitomized by Akka) of the idea that the ends will justify the means. 4) The importance of love as a motivating force, even when the person is unaware of that particular darkness that comes before.

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I get that Kellhus kills Moenghus because he thinks the Dunyain, when they come to believe in the Outside, will join the Consult in attempting to shut the world off to avoid damnation.

Some questions that follow from that:

1. Why will the Dunyain believe themselves damned? Why are they sinners? Or will they just want to close the world off on general principles?

2. If the Dunyain will believe themselves damned, why doesn't Kellhus believe himself damned? That is, once Kellhus came to believe in the Outside, why doesn't he want to close the world?

3. So Moenghus doesn't believe in the Outside, but he believes in the Consult. That is why he paved the way for Kellhus to unite the world - to fight the Consult. But if he doesn't really believe in the Outside and the No-God's ability to close the world from the Outside, why does he believe the Consult is a big enough threat that the world had to be united? What was his end goal, given his belief set?

Unrelated, but I'm still curious:

1. Do we ever learn why Moenghus left Ishual in the first place?

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1. Why will the Dunyain believe themselves damned? Why are they sinners? Or will they just want to close the world off on general principles?

Both explanations are given by Kelhus. That the Dunyain always separate what can be controlled from what cannot. Moenghus is specifically called damned because he is a sinner. Whether Kelhus meant him as a Dunyain or ony his sins after he left Ishual...

2. If the Dunyain will believe themselves damned, why doesn't Kellhus believe himself damned? That is, once Kellhus came to believe in the Outside, why doesn't he want to close the world?

He is the prophet and redemption is possible through him. This he seems to truly believe and Moenghus takes it as a symptom of his madness.

3. So Moenghus doesn't believe in the Outside, but he believes in the Consult. That is why he paved the way for Kellhus to unite the world - to fight the Consult. But if he doesn't really believe in the Outside and the No-God's ability to close the world from the Outside, why does he believe the Consult is a big enough threat that the world had to be united? What was his end goal, given his belief set?

Whether or not Moenghus believes the Consult is correct, he does believe that they will attempt to kill almost everyone and so must be stopped.

1. Do we ever learn why Moenghus left Ishual in the first place?

Some Sranc stumbled onto Ishual and Moenghus was dispatched to make sure they were all killed. Once he was contiminated by the world he was not allowed back into Ishual.

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