Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

[Calibandar]

Couple of thoughts........

Cal, I know you're a Hobb fan, where do you think this sequence sits in comparison to your favorite Hobb arc?

I would still rate Martin, Hobb, Tolkien and some of Kay's books a bit higher than Scott's PoN trilogy, but that is it as far as anyone topping him. Given how much I've read that shows how strong a work PoN is, in my opinion.

Individual comparisons with other authors are very interesting, but difficult. For instance I think the whole Farseer/Tawny Man arc tremendously powerful in an emotional way, more so than PoN. PoN doesn't inspire that much emotion in me, it is of a different kind. With Bakker I become really immersed in his world and the overall story that he's telling, the way he handles certain concepts in precisely the right manner. It's intriguing, but doesn't really hit me emotionally like Kay, Martin or Hobb love to do.

Though I do really like what he does with Kellhus and I can't wait to see him (and maybe his progeny) in Aspect Emperor. And I'd love to see the Nonmen live, which I believe will happen since Scott has said we will be treading on some Nonmen paths. It's a big place and he's really developing it well. I don't support the complaint some have that Kellhus and the Three Seas will now run all over the Consult because we know the Consult will have some ferocious weapons, and there are some wildcards in the world left as well, which could go to either side (Dunyain, Zeum).

I suddenly recall a scene from TWP in which Achamian reminisces about how it would be if Kellhus had the gnosis, standing on the field of battle, greater even than Seswatha, taking down dragons and razing armies to the ground. Could he become that strong?

What did everyone think of Ikurei Conphas' fate?

I was happy to see him gone, the same as with Xerius. Ironic that it should be Saubon of all people who does it, since Saubon had twice before been defeated by Conphas in The Galeoth wars.

What I found curious though was how Saubon knew he had to return. How was he made aware of Conphas's betrayal?

Re;Cnaiur

I'd be happy for him not to return. I guess Dylan's comments here do settle it in a way, and we shouldn't expect to see Cnaiur return in AE.

I suspect there are quite a few other Scylvendi willing (and able) to take up Cnaiur's mantle and lead the People of War. I certainly don't see them allying with Kellhus and the much-hated Inrithi over Lokung.

BTW has anyone checked how many names there are for the No-God? No? Here we go:

* The No-God

* Mog Pharau

* Tsurumah

* Lokung

* The Great Ruiner

* Mutsiris

* Cara-Sincurimoi (Nonmen name, meaning "Angel of Endless Hunger")

* World-breaker

Re;The end

I did not think the end was controversial at all. I did think it quite exciting and some things were glossed over. I would not have minded seeing Kellhus meet Maithanet for instance. It all went a little too fast for me at the end.

Dolorous Edd:

I also struggle with the question of why the Dunyain are all sinners. Closest I can come to is that they use (and indeed torture) humans for their own training.

But if he doesn't really believe in the Outside and the No-God's ability to close the world from the Outside, why does he believe the Consult is a big enough threat that the world had to be united?

I think Moenghus may not have the same beliefs about damnation as some, but he is certainly convinced of the vast destruction the No-God and the Consult would wreak, and rightly so. I see no sign that Moenghus doesn't believe Mog Pharau fully capable of killing everyone on Earwa.

[Darlan Laerdon]

I was under the impression that the whole scene where Saubon makes such a huge deal about staying behind and abandoning the Holy war was a ruse, and Kellhus had Saubon shadowing the army since day one.

[unJon]

Additional questions:

1) Is Inrau not having the Mark yet being able to cast cants in TDTCB, consistent with what Akka says about learning the Gnosis to Kelhus in TTT? Akka says that you spend a lot of time learning some weak pre-cant stuff that marks you before you become strong enough in the gnosis to cast real cants.

2) Are the Inchoroi mad like the Non-men erratics? The erratics are mad because their minds cannot hold all of their memories and in the end all they are left with are the memories of suffering. So are the Inchoroi the same way, and is that why they are such a race of lovers? Or can their minds hold all of the thousands of years of memories?

[DanielDaresU]

I think this is the best completed epic fantasy trilogy ever. I'm not sure I'd rate anyone other than Martin as a better author, and considering this is just Bakker's debut and he'll likely only improve I think we're in for a hell of a lot of good fantasy to come. I'll be first in line to buy his sci-fi book when it comes out (Neuromancer? Can't remember the title offhand)

"I thought the way Akka ended the book was great, standing there dishing out crap left right and center. Before that his personality was becoming a bit annoying, but I was glad to see him finally stand up for himself."

I'm not saying the ending detracted from the story in any way, but for me it read like the tantrum of a 13 year old. It was a self-sabotaging petulant rage against Khellus. Now maybe you could argue that since Achamian had some idea at this point that Khellus could read him like a book, the best thing he could do if he wanted to oppose Khellus was to simply walk away from Khellus' court and plot on his own. But learning what he has, and what's possible, why throw down the gauntlet before leaving? Did he do it simply to shame Esmenet? He has to know that it's not going to have any affect on Khellus.

Also it doesn't quite square to me. Khellus may be manipulating people (so what? how's that different from anyone else except in the degree to which he's successful?) but he's also accomplishing all the aims of the Mandate. I realize that Achamian renounces his school too, he's just had enough, but really, all of this because Esmenet didn't love him as much as she loved Khellus?

As for Conphas, I very much liked his character, more so in TTT than in the preceding books. He was more sympathetic than ever, especially since he was basically going up against Khellus. He might have been a genius, but he was just a man, whereas Khellus was dunyain. It's hard not to feel some sympathy for the guy.

I can just see a scene where Saubon is tearfully begging Khellus 'Don't make me do this! I wish only to serve you!" and Khellus sadly smiles and says "To serve me you must publically renounce me..." Sort of a twist on the Judas theme... Although it could have gone down a different way, where Khellus knew Saubon so well that he knew that though he would refuse to march at first his shame would build and burn until at *just the right moment* he would ride forth, straight into Conphas' rear.

Maithanet is the character I'm most interested in now. From the very first moment he appeared in 'Darkness' I wondered if maybe he was Moenghus... but that didn't square because he seemed too young and Khellus was so certain Moenghus was in Shimeh. It never even occurred to me he could be Moenghus' other son, but made perfect sense when revealed. Moenghus said something along the lines of the fact that Maithanet being half world-born meant he could never attain the full understanding and powers of the Dunyain, which is why he had to summon Khellus. I've been wondering:

- Was Moenghus right? If so, than are any children Khellus has going to be 'inferior' as well, no matter how they're raised (unless he isolates them completely and raises them in a dunyain-like complex) Also, if Maithanet isn't capable of the full-objectivism of the dunyain, is it possible he'll hold some grudge/envy against Khellus for killing Moenghus?

- Was Moenghus wrong? If so, will not Maithanet be able to rise in power to be equal to Khellus? Will Khellus trust that their ends and aims will always be so similar that he won't care, and will teach Maithanet the gnosis? It would be extremely handy in battle to have someone else who can do three-cants-at-a-time with some gnosis butt-kicking. Or, if Khellus doesn't know that he can trust Maithanet throughout, he'll probably have to kill him. The scene at the end tells us that at the moment Maithanet is very happy sustaining Khellus... I'm curious as to where it goes from there, and what it will mean.

[Darlan Laerdon]

There are two parts that make the Dunyain so much more than other men.

First are their genes, a sort of cream of the crop resulting for 2000 years of only keeping the best, the smartest, the fastest alive. To be born of a dunyain is to gain their intellegence and their physical prowess.

However, the other thing that makes the Dunyain the Dunyain is their training. It is the years of conditioning that allows them to read faces and to master what comes before.

Any children born from the dunyain bloodline have a strong natural intellegence and prowess, but mastering what comes before comes from the training, not the genes.

[unJon]

Though I think that its the genes that makes a half-dunyain like Maithenet inadequate. He can be trained the same but he won't reach the same level because his blood is watered down so to speak.

[delete this account pls]

Some random thoughts;

I really enjoyed TTT. The first half was a little top heavy with philosophising and emotional entanglements that threatened to slip into the realms of a soap opera (almost) but the second half more than made up for it.

Cnauir cemeneted his slot as one of my favourite characters in fiction. "Cnaiur had not the arms for the swazond he earned that night". His madness and his ferocity was really portrayed well. I truly felt like he was the 'most violent of men'. I wished we'd seen more of his relationship with Proyas though. Despite his madness and brutality, he was still concerned for Proyas, even going as far as telling Akka to warn him of Conphas' treachery. Like others, I think that if he's not dead, his story is at least over.

Conphas. He got screwed a bit (literally even) and I'd hoped for more from him, but I was satisfied. He was kind of the villain of the piece - in that I mean he was opposed to the main protagonist (the Fanim were always kept at arms length, faceless foemen almost), so I guess I expected him to die. I did like it when his Columns chose their Lion of Kiyuth over the Warrior Prophet - it really showed his charisma and control. I liked it even more when he was laying, stunned from Achamain's attack, and he overheard what his men really thought of him.

Achamian. Such a great contrast between the cynical, almost broken old man, and the terrifyingly powerful sorceror. He finally found some strength at the end. I think losing Xin, his oldest and only true friend, caused this change in him more than Cnauir's revelations.

Proyas. I'm slightly confused about him. He seems an important character, but he really didn't have much of a part to play in the entire trilogy. His biggest impact came through his relationship to others - Akka, Xin, Cnauir. Also he was one of the geuinine 'nice' guys in the series, a species pretty thin on the ground in Earwa

Kellhus. Interesting that Moenghus' observations are somewhat true. his ordeals have broken him. Now he has been remade into something new. More than a Dunyain, perhaps more than a Warrior Prophet even. If Cnauir isn't going to be around anymore (which is debatable) I think Akka might be the next to fill that role - the only man not deceived bu his machinations and manipulations. I think it's important to have that, because Kellhus is so smooth he sometimes even fooled me.

The Consult. They continue to be excellent villains. Sexual sadists mixed with mad scientists.

Some general comments;

Isn't it said in TDTCB that Maithanet is Nilnameshi? Moenghus also talked about Nilnamesh, so I guess he visited it once at least, and sired Maithanet there. The place intrigues me, as does Zeum. Bakker does such a good job with his world building that I want to learn more about the unknown nations. Add Athritau to that list, actually.

If Moenghus sired Maithanet, he could have easily had other children. Maybe not though, as training one would take a considerable ammount of work. Still, it'd be interesting if there were a few other half brothers of Kellhus running around.

Does it seem to anyone else that Iyokus is prime Consult recruiting material? He's summoned numerous hideous demons from the Outside. He sealed his fate, and knew as much in WP - eternal damnation and torment at the hands of the very creatures he uses. If he wants to avoid this, it seems like a no-brainer to join the Consult.

I admire the way Bakker can make a character appealing and intriguing without having them speak a line of dialogue. Athjeari is a good example, as is Yalgrota Sranchammer, Skauras and Fanayal (though I believe the latter two do actually get a few lines, I think they still qualify)

[DanielDaresU]

"Does it seem to anyone else that Iyokus is prime Consult recruiting material? He's summoned numerous hideous demons from the Outside. He sealed his fate, and knew as much in WP - eternal damnation and torment at the hands of the very creatures he uses. If he wants to avoid this, it seems like a no-brainer to join the Consult."

I hadn't thought of this before you mentioned it, but I think you're dead-on right, and I wouldn't be surprised a bit. Iyokus is overlooked, but one of the more interesting characters, and moreso since he is one of the survivors. He may also be a prime candidate now for learning the psukhe now, if that art isn't dead after the decimation of the cishaurim.

I don't know if Iyokus is sadistic enough to fit in with the Consult, but even if he's not he's cold enough to fake it and not lose any sleep over it.

[Slurktan]

I read TTT a few weeks ago, I was very disappointed. I won't go in to many details because quite frankly I put them out of mind because I thought the book was so bad. I do have a few musings though:

1. The constant annoying whining, in specific of Akka and Esmenet but also from various others at points. Their whining is so all encompassing that sometimes you forget that their whining is circular in that they wine, seemingly come to at least a stop gap resolution, whine some more about something else, come to at least a stop gap resolution, then whine about the first thing again.

2. Xerius. I was never a big fan of the character but I held out and gave Bakker the benefit of the doubt because surely he had a purpose in the end. He doesn't. A stupid, random end, to a stupid random character, in a stupid, random plot arc.

3. The End. Like Calibandar I thought it was *very* rushed. Unlike him it seems, I also found it completely anti-climactic. The focus for Kellhus through the first two books is "I have to get to Moenghus, who knows what he's done with these primitives and why" but then when Kellhus actually gets there, he chit chats for maybe 5 minutes then leaves. Seriously, why even bother?

I must say I truly enjoyed the glossary though. I like all the details on the first apocalypse.

[Calibandar]

Slurk

I must say I truly enjoyed the glossary though. I like all the details on the first apocalypse.

What surprised me about the entry was that it was relatively brief. There are a couple of accounts from the TWP which expand upon the Apocalypse but which were not mentioned in the glossary. The Cunu-Inchoroi wars entry was bigger and also very cool.

I wonder what has remained of the Nonmen, not so much in numbers (we know they are small) but in terms of power. How many Quya ( the sorceres) are left? How many Ishroi (the warriors). What kind of leader is their current King, Nin-Ciljiras? How would they react to the new Aspect Emperor?

Brady

Conphas. He got screwed a bit (literally even) and I'd hoped for more from him, but I was satisfied.

So I didn't misread that after all? I thought it was implied Cnaiur had done more than hit him when he was alone with Conphas but it wasn't really referred to afterwards so I thought I imagined it.

The thing that I liked about Achamian was why he broke free of Kellhus. Xin died and Kellhus had done nothing to save him. Given what we had seen before, the logical question for someone not under Kellhus's spell would be to ask why he had done nothing to save Xin. When Akka found out that Kellhus basicaly didn't care, that's when the spell broke.

Isn't it said in TDTCB that Maithanet is Nilnameshi?

Yes, it was.

I suspect we will not see more of Moenghus' children, but given earlier intentions mentioned by Kellhus I would be surprised if we learn in AE that he hasn't fathered a couple of children.

[unJon]

So I didn't misread that after all? I thought it was implied Cnaiur had done more than hit him when he was alone with Conphas but it wasn't really referred to afterwards so I thought I imagined it.

When I came to the sentence I had to re-read it. It was such a shocking, yet predictable revelation.

Quote of Conphas thinking...

Why? Why hadn't he killed the fiend? What vice or vanity had stayed his hand? Was it the iron hand clamped about his neck? The burn of the man's seed upon his back?

[Dutchman]

I read it as rape as well but quite frankly the reaction to it after the fact was a tad ridiculous. Now granted, back in the day being taken by violence was a part of many people's lives, and the acceptance to it was certainly higher than now, but this is the heir to an empire. I doubt he'd ever had hands raised to him in violence outside of battle, then he gets beaten up, buggered, but then sneaks out and seems okay. The quote is something along the lines of "What is it about this man that has me so focused on him?"

Well lets see, he kicked your ass, then raped your ass, that is probably a good start. I just can't see as proud and arrogant a man as Conphas handling it all so well. A doted on heir to a powerful empire. Pseudo enjoyable rape steers Cnauirs entire life, shapes his character and actions, and he is a far more savage and brutal culture, yet for Conphas, who it ought to be safe to assume took no jot in the experience, he seems to just say "well that sucked, ah well, on with the show". None of this worked for me at all.

Re: Acha, and the last bit with him. First time through, despite the hectic pace of the near end of the book, I actually went back after reading about him waking up on the beach to see if I might have missed a page or something. There is a definite disconnect in that situation. I figure either:

a) Baker just totally missed the boat, which I find highly doubtful given the scope of the story.

It was meant to be a mystery which shapes the future relationship of Acha and Iyokus.

c) Iyokus's's's's's's's comment "An eye for an eye" actually meant that he considered things square between them and the thing was meant to save Acha from the eventual organization of the Chorae wielders in the empire's army.

Could be c, given that the initial fight between Acha and the thing would have happened regardless, Iyokus would never assume that Acha would believe him and just let the thing snag him, but I'm leaning toward b.

My 2 cents

Dutch

[Analu]

I read it as rape as well but quite frankly the reaction to it after the fact was a tad ridiculous. Now granted, back in the day being taken by violence was a part of many people's lives, and the acceptance to it was certainly higher than now, but this is the heir to an empire. I doubt he'd ever had hands raised to him in violence outside of battle, then he gets beaten up, buggered, but then sneaks out and seems okay. The quote is something along the lines of "What is it about this man that has me so focused on him?"

Well lets see, he kicked your ass, then raped your ass, that is probably a good start. I just can't see as proud and arrogant a man as Conphas handling it all so well. A doted on heir to a powerful empire. Pseudo enjoyable rape steers Cnauirs entire life, shapes his character and actions, and he is a far more savage and brutal culture, yet for Conphas, who it ought to be safe to assume took no jot in the experience, he seems to just say "well that sucked, ah well, on with the show". None of this worked for me at all.

I agree. Surely a little more venom would in order.

I liked TTT the best out of the trilogy. It's always fun reading the bookend to a series and seeing significant characters get iced right and left.

A few critical notes, though:

- I was disappointed in getting a 500 page book, yet having it end on page 400. The encyclopedia is nice and everything, but to make up 20% of the whole book? Unnecessary, IMO. Than to top it off, to make the map all blurry and unintelligible (at least in the US hardcover).

- I was hoping for at least some interaction/dialogue between Maithanet and Kellhus, other than Maithanet basically slobbering over Kellhus like everyone else.

- The Sranc and the Inchoroi could have been given more airtime.

- Esmenet was getting tiresome in the end.

I'm nitpicking, though. It was a great capper to a great series.

[duchess of malfi]

I also thought that Conphas's reaction to being raped was a little off...perhaps the one bad note of the novel for me. I know women who have been raped, and it was a life altering crime (and not for the better) to them. Wouldn't it be similar for a man?

I loved the encyclopedia in the back, and kept getting lost back there, rather than reading the book.

I thought the ending was very well done. It circled back to the beginning...in the beginning Acha saw Esme as an empress, and realized that he dimmed her light, and that she shone for Kelhus, whom he also loves...at the end it circles around again and now Esme is in reality an empress...but how have his feelings ever changed towards Kelhus.

I loved this trilogy. Bakker is a wonderful writer, and his stuff is deep and meaty. Yum!

[unJon]

Re: Acha, and the last bit with him. First time through, despite the hectic pace of the near end of the book, I actually went back after reading about him waking up on the beach to see if I might have missed a page or something. There is a definite disconnect in that situation. I figure either:

a) Baker just totally missed the boat, which I find highly doubtful given the scope of the story.

It was meant to be a mystery which shapes the future relationship of Acha and Iyokus.

c) Iyokus's's's's's's's comment "An eye for an eye" actually meant that he considered things square between them and the thing was meant to save Acha from the eventual organization of the Chorae wielders in the empire's army.

Could be c, given that the initial fight between Acha and the thing would have happened regardless, Iyokus would never assume that Acha would believe him and just let the thing snag him, but I'm leaning toward b.

My 2 cents

Dutch

I asked this of Bakker and he answered it here. Turns out he is unsatisfied by how he handled it also. Bakker = Cu'jara Cinmoi

[delete this account pls]

Conphas is insane. not in the batshit crazy way of Cnaiur, or even in the blubbering idiot way of his uncle Xerius, but insane none-the-less. He's an egomaniac amplified by a hundred. The guy believes he's a living god - truly believes it, and is surprised that others don't immediately fall to their knees to bask in his holy radiance. He doesn't even really have emotions, at least not where other people are concerned.

So I didn't have a problem with his reaction to being raped. He's puzzled, but not traumatised, because he doesn't have any emotions to traumatise. Even Kellhus admits, Conphas is almost a Dunyain in the way he divorces intellect from feeling.

[Analu]

So I didn't have a problem with his reaction to being raped. He's puzzled, but not traumatised, because he doesn't have any emotions to traumatise. Even Kellhus admits, Conphas is almost a Dunyain in the way he divorces intellect from feeling.

I dunno about Conphas not having any emotions. He acknowledged feeling fear when Cnaiur hit him the first time in front of his men.

Then, when he was getting beaten/raped, there's this line:

The Exalt-General went down. Cnaiur unfastened his belt, snapped it free. He yanked it about the sobbing man's neck...

A "sobbing" man's got to feel emotions, yes?

[Dutchman]

He's an egomaniac amplified by a hundred. The guy believes he's a living god - truly believes it, and is surprised that others don't immediately fall to their knees to bask in his holy radiance.

Sounds a lot like the most likely personality to be reduced to nothing after a rape. Bit of a reality check you would think. I get what you are saying about the insanity, something is clearly off with him in the ending chapters after the rape, it just didn't strike me as overt enough.

I know two women very well who were raped, and the one who like to be the toughest chick on the block took it 10 times harder than the more princessy one. Recovery time was years longer as well, and still not absolute a decade later. Conphas's's's's's's (is it clear I hate names that end in s? Bungs up my apostrophes's's's's's's) personality screams total meltdown as a reaction to it being made clear that he is, in fact, completely and wholeheartedly at the mercy of another, and also to having made such a grave mistake in sending his people away. If not utter collapse I would at least expect iron denial rather than detached musing.

"yup, that Cnauir guy is pretty scary, and that dick in the arse wasn't my favorite thing, but perhaps it was the big load he tossed on my spine that has me feeling all icky about things"

I mean come on, how does that fit?

Dutch

p.s. Unjon, thanks for that link.

[Slurktan]

I thought the ending was very well done. It circled back to the beginning...in the beginning Acha saw Esme as an empress, and realized that he dimmed her light, and that she shone for Kelhus, whom he also loves...at the end it circles around again and now Esme is in reality an empress...but how have his feelings ever changed towards Kelhus.

That's one way of seeing it. I thought it was a more of a bad soap opera ending. Akka knows Esmi loves him more than Kellhus. Kellhus knows the same. Esmi knows the same. The reason she stays is that she loves having power and "being somebody" more than she loves Akka. Akka gets understandably bitter at this and as such comes the melodrama.

[delete this account pls]

I dunno about Conphas not having any emotions. He acknowledged feeling fear when Cnaiur hit him the first time in front of his men.

Then, when he was getting beaten/raped, there's this line:

The Exalt-General went down. Cnaiur unfastened his belt, snapped it free. He yanked it about the sobbing man's neck...

A "sobbing" man's got to feel emotions, yes?

I thought he was sobbing in pain. Cnaiur is physically assaulting him as well as sexually abusing him. But yeah, I get your point - it would have been more acurate to say Conphas has hardly any emotions, rather than none.

Sounds a lot like the most likely personality to be reduced to nothing after a rape. Bit of a reality check you would think. I get what you are saying about the insanity, something is clearly off with him in the ending chapters after the rape, it just didn't strike me as overt enough.

I know two women very well who were raped, and the one who like to be the toughest chick on the block took it 10 times harder than the more princessy one. Recovery time was years longer as well, and still not absolute a decade later. Conphas's's's's's's (is it clear I hate names that end in s? Bungs up my apostrophes's's's's's's) personality screams total meltdown as a reaction to it being made clear that he is, in fact, completely and wholeheartedly at the mercy of another, and also to having made such a grave mistake in sending his people away. If not utter collapse I would at least expect iron denial rather than detached musing.

"yup, that Cnauir guy is pretty scary, and that dick in the arse wasn't my favorite thing, but perhaps it was the big load he tossed on my spine that has me feeling all icky about things"

I mean come on, how does that fit?

But Conphas approaches most things with detachment. He wouldn't slip into denial because he has nothing to deny, as he sees it. I don't think he feels any sense of violation or shame at what happened to him. Those are for "lesser" men, not living gods. The rape was all part of the greater events that saw him triumphant, in his mind.