Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

[Slick Mongoose]

It was very short. In the first half the pace was quite slow, and then the ending felt rushed. Still a very good book, but it could have been a bit better I felt.

I felt than Conphas' reactions were fairly consistent. He may not have no emotions, but he is able to divorce emotion from intellect.

[DanielDaresU]

"I know women who have been raped, and it was a life altering crime (and not for the better) to them. Wouldn't it be similar for a man?"

I'm a man, I was raped when I was just a kid but by a woman, not by a man (which may be a crucial difference). While it definitely left scars and probably some weird associations, I have to wonder whether the crime itself is a permanent 'life-altering' thing which attaches to the victim. That description almost makes it sound like the raped person has caught some incurable disease, which is not the case at all. People survive and recover from all kinds of horrendous things, not just physically but emotionally too. There are quadruplegics who survive horrible physical accidents, for example, who are able to recover emotionally from what other people might think was an unbearable condition. There are still survivors of death camps who inarguably saw and experienced things that can only be described as unbearable, and yet are able to live normal lives.

But I get the point everyone is making about how Conphas seemed so unaffected by his rape, I think the main complaint would be how he was able immediately afterward to act relatively 'normal' (for him).

Conphas reaction wasn't a problem so much for me though, and I think the reasons are twofold:

1 - Conphas *was* disassociating from himself mildly, at least it read that way to me. He wasn't freaking out, but he was also indecisive about how to proceed with Cnaiur, which just isn't like him.

2 - Conphas has absolutely no sense of shame (in fact when he considers it he doesn't even understand embarrassment, though he knows it's an emotion other people suffer from and is happy to use it to manipulate others). I think Brady brilliantly pointed this out, and I think it's the main reason that being raped would not affect him all that much. If he's incapable of feeling shame, than rape is divorced of most of it's emotional power over him.

If any other character in the series was raped and made this super fast recovery to normality, that'd be odd. Well, any other character than Khellus. If Khellus was raped and then immediately normal afterward, I doubt any of us readers would experience the slightest twinge of disbelief.

[AverageGuy]

Finally got the book this weekend, and now I've had a few days to digest it. I liked it overall. A couple questions: Anyone else think Kellhus is really more than Dunyain? What keeps him from being damned like all of them? Or was it only Moenghus who was damned for his manipulation of people? In which case: again, why isn't Kellhus damned? And I thought the haloes of light were tricks, so if he doesn't know what they are, what are they? And why does he (or Moenghus) care about the No-God or the Consult wiping out the rest of humanity if the Dunyain are spared? Where's the detached logic?

[unJon]

There is some decent discussion of some of those questions over at www.three-seas.com. But that board has about 1/20 of the posters as this one. Let me take a stab at my opinion of some of them.

I'm on the fence about whether Kellhus is more than Dunyain (latter-latter-latter prophet) or just crazy. But he clearly believes that he is more, which may be all that matters for humanity vs. Inchoroi. Kellhus thinks that he is not damned (nor sorcerors) because he reinterpreted the Tusk, and he can do that because he thinks/is the new prophet.

Moenghus and the other Dunyain are damned because they are sinners. I'm a little confused on that point. But I think that the main argument is that right now the Dunyain do not believe in the Outside. Once they do, they will join the Consult in trying to close off the world. This follows from the Dunyain principle that what can be controlled (men, the world) must be separated from what cannot be controlled (the Outside).

The analogy is to the Dunyain sealing themselves into the closed environment of Ishual for 2K years. And when Moenghus becomes even slightly tainted by going outside to kill a few Sranc, he has to be banished and separted from the rest. And even the Dunyain that received Moenghus's sorcerous request for Kellhus go into voluntary suicide once they send Kellhus away. Even the slightest bit of taint is intolerable. This last bit confuses me in that I'm not sure why Moenghus was allowed exile instead of suicide.

The haloes, no idea. I thought that there was a Kellhus POV near the end that implied that he thought that they were real as opposed to tricks (like the ripping out of the heart at the end of TWP).

I don't remember that the Dunyain would be spared by the Consult, just that the Dunyain would join the Consult once the believe in the Outside. Moenghus does not believe in the Outside. I think he wants to stop the Consult because the world for him is still all stuff that he can control and he does not want that destroyed. Kellhus muses that Moenghus wants to kill him and take his place as the prophet/AE in Shimeh.

That's one way of seeing it. I thought it was a more of a bad soap opera ending.

I thought that the ending was pretty uplifting. I was like "Go, Akka, it's your birthday."

[john]

What I thought -

The trilogy was excellent in general, but I thought this book was easily the weakest. The first three hundred pages were just going over stuff that had already been established. The last hundred pages were a lot more exciting but I found myself frustrated by the ends of all the character arcs save Kellhus and Achamian. In the course of a few pages we get Conphas dead, Cnaiur finished, Elezearas dead, all of them with their ambitions frustrated. And that's it. Proyas doesn't develop at all in this book. I thought he was going to rape the kid in the assault on Shimeh, but he doesn't. Xerius, what was the point? He didn't need a PoV. Maithanet, OK, it explains everything but it's not very satisfying. There was no complexity in any of these endings and very little emotional resonance.

my answers to some of the questions here,

The dunyain as sinners - Kellhus doesn't believe they are sinners at this point in time. But they're potential sinners. And if the Dunyain do recognise this in themselves (which they would after enough exposure to the outside world) then the logros would compel them to act accordingly, as the Consult have. Kellhus himself is beyond the logros.

Cnaiur and Moenghus - I read it that Cnaiur killed Moenghus deliberately. Part of him still wanted his vengeance, part of him didn't. He's insane, he can't control his actions. And I think that Cnaiur will almost certainly return as some twisted Consult construct, although he probably won't have a PoV.

oh yeah, does anybody know what happened to Fanayal? I'm not sure if I missed his death or capitulation, or just assumed it happened off screen.

[Dutchman]

is Fanayal the head of the Shimeh guys? The Sultan or whatever Bakker called him who led the breakout from Shimeh and assault? (Sorry, I suck at titles, I read em as the equivalent that's in my head)

If so, I assumed the entire army had been immolated by the imperial Saik when Saubon showed up.

Dutch

[Darlan Laerdon]

I'm personally of the opinion that Khelhus has lost it. His manipulation of people is no worse than his father's, but he really does think he's god incarnate.

[Xray the Enforcer]

In the middle of TTT right now. One question that's been nagging me since the beginning: The skin-spies -- are they remotely human? ie -- if they are of the Consult, then why isn't their semen black? (you think Esmi would notice something like that when she was with the Sarcellus skin-spy). Or was the creature that visited Emsi in Sumna a wholly different construct of the Consult?

[Darlan Laerdon]

The thing that visited Esmi in Sumna was an Inchoroi, one of the heads of the consult. I believe the skin spies have either normal colored seaman or they dont ejaculate while having sex, only under very certian circumstances IE killing Serwe.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification.

[AverageGuy]

I'm personally of the opinion that Khelhus has lost it. His manipulation of people is no worse than his father's, but he really does think he's god incarnate.

See, I might think that, too. But what Kellhus heard from the No-God was repeated in Akka's dreams, and the halos have been seen by more people than Kellhus. Is the No-God related to the Outside? And was he made out of chorae?

[delete this account pls]

See, I might think that, too. But what Kellhus heard from the No-God was repeated in Akka's dreams, and the halos have been seen by more people than Kellhus. Is the No-God related to the Outside? And was he made out of chorae?

If the No-God had a soul than he/she/it currently dwells in the Outside according to the 'rules' of Earwa. I noticed something about Kellhus' haloes - and they are indeed seen by many, including Serwe, Esmenet and Proyas - people first glimpse them when they 'realise' that Kellhus is a true prophet. Serwe began seeing them nearly straight away. Esmi started seeing them in TWP after she thought Akka was dead. Martemus began to see them before the battle of Anwurat. Most of the Holy War begin seeing them after Caraskand. It could just be a common delusion, but that seems improbable.

[Dolorous Edd]

Could someone refresh my memoray as to where in the books Kellhus hears from the No-God?

[Ser Paladin]

I know he is hearing "a" voice in the last 30-40 pages of TTT, and that the voice is saying the same things that the voice of the No-God was saying in Akka's dreams. WHO AM I, etc, etc.

The No-God being made of chorae makes a lot of sense to me, though I had never thought oif it before. Akka describes the existence of nearby chorae as "void" when seen through his magic sense. Moenghus (or Akka) describes his vision of how the Outside interacts with Earwa as people's eyes being little holes from the outside. And when the No-God walks the earth, no souls come in from outside to the newborn babies.

Perhaps, instead of closing Earwa, the No-God was a "black hole" sucking in any new material from outside. If this is the case, it explains why the Inchoroi exposed the No-God in battle, rather than hiding him away and saying "mission accomplished."

[Khal Blotto]

Just finished TTT, and I have to say the entire Battle for Shimeh friggin' rocked.

Proyas's ride on the advancing seige tower, Achamian going nuts on the Imperial Columns, the Scarlet Spire/Cishaurim battles in/below/above the city (and the intricacies/strategies involved), just a few of the highlights from a heart-pounding sequence.

Yes, there are plenty of themes/ideas/philosophies left to ponder, but for now I'm happy to settle for some serious ass-kicking!

[john]

The No-God isn't made of chorae. I can't remember where this is but it's said somewhere that there are three chorae imbedded in the No-God's carapace, and that's where his protection from sorcery comes from.

[Xray the Enforcer]

The No-God isn't made of chorae. I can't remember where this is but it's said somewhere that there are three chorae imbedded in the No-God's carapace, and that's where his protection from sorcery comes from.

IIRC, it's mentioned once in TWP, and again somewhere in TTT?

Another question: the Consult -- they were another school of Gnostic sorcerers that "went to the Dark Side," correct?

[Rooster]

>> Another question: the Consult -- they were another school of Gnostic sorcerers that "went to the Dark Side," correct?

That would be the Mangaecca. They are a part of the Consult.

[Nathanael]

Just finished a night ago. It was awesome. Can't wait for The Aspect-Emperor.

Kind of annoyed by the pixelated second map in my copy, but it's not that big of a deal.

And the glossary said that there were seven chorae in the No-God's carapace.

Regarding the Dunyain, I didn't get the sense that they were damned or that they would feel that they were damned. Rather, they would see the Outside and the existence of sorcery as something that taints the entire world - ultimately, they want the entire world Conditioned. The Outside makes that impossible. Thus, they don't come to same conclusion as the Consult, but rather the same means to a different end. Allow the Consult to win, and the Outside no longer is a problem for their Conditioning.

Moenghus was still in line with Dunyain thinking, so Kellhus had to kill him to prevent that.

[EHK for Darwin]

Just finished it last night...or if you like, this morning...as I read the last 300 pages (of an only 400+ page novel) straight through. I'll offer more when I've collected my thoughts, but AWESOME fucking ending. Left me begging for more.