Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

[EHK for Darwin]

Dunyan Sinners:

They're all blond haired, blue eyed Aryan, 'Master Race' types who exterminate the weaker amongst themselves. They are all conscienceless sociopaths who torture and murder their own and all those around them if it serves their purposes. For them, the ends justify ANY means, they feel no emotions or empathy, but readily manipulate those who do feel them to serve their purposes. They're all potential race exterminating NAZI's who use reason as their justification rather than blind conviction...which makes their acts even worse in my mind. A men who use emotion or superstition to dictate their actions can arguably be said not to be in total control of who they is or what they does...the Dunyan have no such excuse. Their crimes are theirs and theirs alone. Full, unmitigated accountability. Therefore, I think they're damned, according to the rules of this world, all of them.

Conphas:

Got to say, I was disappointed. With Cnair insane and Akka intermittently gaining and losing his balls, he was the only true rival to Kellhaus. And fucking A...I was cheering for him. While I find Kellhus to be an interesting character, I also completely and utterly loath him. I was cheering for Akka to smack him down a dozen times. One of my favorite parts of the books is when most of his column decides to stay with him...that was as big a FUCK YOU to Kellhus as anything else in the series.

The Nansur Empire were also amongst the most civilized invading hordes in the series. I remember multiple times when they were the disciplined, civil types while the rest of the Inrithi went raping and pillaging at will. One city even bargained to open their gates only if the Empire became their occupiers. Disappointed that his end came rather anti-climactically. Though it may have killed some potential sequels, I would have been completely satisfied to have him run down and destroy the prophets army...and the prophet....with his men.

Akka:

Definately the true protagonist of the series and the one we can all relate too. All around a great character. His lapses between strength and weakness were frustrating though, since I yearned to see him a baddass, gnostic flinging mother-fucker throughout. I like his gradual shift into a modern day Seswatha and VERY interested in what happens between him and Kellhus in the future.

I disagree on the 'tantrum' remarks about his ending. He was simply beyond caring. The only thing he gave a damn about at that point was Esemet. And when she forsook him; what was an out of touch (to him anyway) order, manipulated slaves, and a betraying, lying puppet-master to him anyway? He had nothing there. He was on the outside. To pretend otherwise would be just that. And Kellhus would no doubt see through it and at some point, would have to take him out. I believe Akka knew that and perhaps figured he'd take his moment of satisfaction and leave.

I also thought it was incredibly satisfying. Someone has to stand up to that shit Kellhus. And I honestly thought at that point, he was beyond rage, beyond love, beyond hate...and could have leveled that place had anyone attempted to stop him. Sitting beside Kellhus offered him only a lifetime of pleasing deception. And had he given in, it'd only be too tempting to succumb to it and forget the truth.

The Whining:

I thought this too got a bit excessive. Throughout the second half of tWP and first half of TTT. Another described it well, they'd whine incessently, come to a revelation and grow some balls/backbone...lose it, whine again incessantly and so on and so forth. At certain points it did detract from the novel. When it came to Akka and Esmi, I was just waiting for him to snap (as he nearly did a few times) and call her a worthless whore, Kellhus a betraying bastard, and just lay into them instead of always being brought back by Kellhus's manipulations. Much like my feelings on the elves in LotR, I wanted a main character to grab their scrawny necks, smack them a round, and let them know just how big a bastards they are. LotR didn't have that payoff. In the absolute end...this book did.

I like that.

The Narrative:

Perhaps essential to maintain the pace....and it was nice not having 1,000,000 characters to follow, but too often I think 3rd person narratives substituted for first person impressions. While they were still powerful and as a result of this choice, very fast pace...I don't think 3rd person can ever be quite as compelling as first hand accounts. It started about the middle of tWP with the desert scene and continued throughout. Innumerable names tossed left and right, deaths and struggles of unprounouncable figures that we never really came to know. We were able to get a connection with a few of them, but not many. Alot of them I'd be curious to know more about.

That said, giving them PoV's and full fledged characters no doubt would have slowed the pace...and likely made it impossible to do this in 3 books. And it did make the pacing and action incredibly intense with shit happening left and right. So somewhat ambivilant on the choice, don't think it necessarily wrong, but curious what the other way could have brought.

The End:

Pulse pounding and intense. Seriously...I forced myself to stay up til 7am finishing this damned thing. The battle for Shimeh, the somewhat anti-climactic meeting with Daddy, Achamians battle, the sorcerer duels, all KICK ASS. I'll agree that it felt rushed, hell the pacing was furious and left me tired. But he definately trimmed all the excess fat from his last few hundred pages...and it was lean, mean, and brutal. And given my recent complaints about aFFC, I'd be a tad bit hypocritical to bash this too much.

And let me restate again...I fucking loved the absolute end. Tantrum or not, nothing was more satisfying than watching the intermittently weak willed, but highly sympathetic Akka lay the verbal smackdown on the all-powerful, and may he be tortured and killed, Kellhus. Besides, with every other character a sycophantic slave throughout so much of the book, it was nice for one character to have the audacity to tell him to go to hell.

Conclusion:

He's set up an amazing and compelling world that gets me incredibly interested in what he'll do with it. Nilmashi (sp), zuem, Attritau, the barren north, the rest of the Dunyan, Non-men, No-god, Inchorai...I EAGERLY want to know what he's gonna do with these guys.

Which is why this series pisses me off. Cause yet again...I have to fucking wait to find out!!

[Xray the Enforcer]

Damn, EHK. I feel like I just read the book again -- complete with ending overwhelmed exhaustion.

Conphas drove me up the wall, but I was totally rooting for him over Kellhus. Actually, I was rooting for just about everyone over Kellhus by the end -- after you really find out about the Dunyain and their "practices."

One thing I'm curious to know: do people really think Cnaiur is insane. Well, aside from the whole Serwe Returns bit. He may have been insane to own kind -- but I found his motivations quite...sane. Not sure what that says about me.

[Ixodes]

One thing I'm curious to know: do people really think Cnaiur is insane. Well, aside from the whole Serwe Returns bit. He may have been insane to own kind -- but I found his motivations quite...sane. Not sure what that says about me.

Yeah, I thought he lost it in Thousandfold Thought. Especially after he raped Conphas then promptly forgot about what he did. Cnaiur was smart enough and disciplined enough to resist Kellhus through the first 2 books. I keep wondering how the story would have been different had he stayed sane.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Yeah, I thought he lost it in Thousandfold Thought. Especially after he raped Conphas then promptly forgot about what he did. Cnaiur was smart enough and disciplined enough to resist Kellhus through the first 2 books. I keep wondering how the story would have been different had he stayed sane.

Oh, I definitely agree that he had checked out by the end of TTT. But even back in TDTCB, Kellhus and Cnaiur were both internally talking about how Cnaiur was insane -- and I just never saw it. Now, by the time he was hanging out with skin-spy Serwe -- definitely off the deep end.

[Rooster]

>> One thing I'm curious to know: do people really think Cnaiur is insane [early on].

Totally batshit crazy, no. A little less than sane, definitely. I had no problem with his motivations, it's just that his thought processes came off, well, a bit off.

Reading EHK's venomous post against Kellhus made me almost feel bad for rooting for him. Good think I like myself enough as it is. Anyway, one of the things I think Kellhus is great is precisely because he is an unsympathetic, utter bastard. I think that's a fascinating break from the archetype of heroism we get when fighting against a "Big Bad Guy" (not to say I'd mind Kellhus' development toward the positive side, I'm quite sure he'll still be badass, considering his ego). I'm just a bit apprehensive Kellhus will be killed off in Aspect-Emperor and some "lesser" chap takes over in the third series.

[unJon]

I think if anyone takes over, it will be Kellhus's kid with Esmi, and I don't know that he'll be much 'lesser' or sympathetic.

[EHK for Darwin]

The perfect ending to the Aspect Emperor trilogy (assuming it'll be such): A titanic battle between Achamian and Kellhus (don't care how or why, just make it happen), mountains uprooted, cities destroyed, landscapes leveled. Magic, fire, brimstone cascading across the horizon. Horrified onlookers catching the tiny figures dueling upon a mountaintop from leagues away. Finally the last of Kellhus's wards are shattered. Achamian lifts him up by his scrawny neck and declares in an amplified voice heard for miles around:

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyrannies of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness. For he is truly his brothers' keeper and finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

than rips his head off from his dangling body and skull-fucks him.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I think if anyone takes over, it will be Kellhus's kid with Esmi, and I don't know that he'll be much 'lesser' or sympathetic.

It would make internal sense -- a three trilogy series following 3 generations of self-serving bastards. Although that feels a little...precious...to me. Ah well, we'll see how this pans out.

[Calibandar]

I actually find myself much more drawn to and rooting for Anasurimbor Kellhus than I do Achamian. He just has a lot of facets that I like in a character, and characters like him are rare in fantasy or mainstream lit.

Achamian is not my favorite: I don't identify with him because his incessant interior monologues regarding Esmenet simply get on my nerves. I agree with the comment that his growing strong and then weak again throughout the series feels off somehow, haphazard. If it was a different problem each time then maybe I could swallow it, but it's bloody Esmenet all the time. Esmenet, whose POV I also find rather uninteresting.

As I said before, the greatness of the Cnaiur POV is somewhat lost in TTT compared to the previous two books. He is too out of it to relate to, and IMO his journey ends somewhat unsatisfactory, even though some might consider it fitting, which I'd understand. It's just not what I was hoping for.

But it really leaves you hanging for Aspect Emperor. As Scott said on the board, the only unambiguous victory we have seen sofar is the one created by Kellhus. His face-off in Aspect Emperor is going to kick ass in the grandest traditions.

[Ixodes]

Oh, I definitely agree that he had checked out by the end of TTT. But even back in TDTCB, Kellhus and Cnaiur were both internally talking about how Cnaiur was insane -- and I just never saw it. Now, by the time he was hanging out with skin-spy Serwe -- definitely off the deep end.

I am with you. I personally didn't consider Cnaiur insane in the first two books (well, maybe towards the end of TWP he started going batty). He was a crazy mo-fo, but not insane. Given the context of his culture, his repressed sexuality, and the fact that he spent the entire books with a person who could manipulate others with a god-like ability, I found him rational. Maybe I completely misread his character (wouldn't be the first time ).

I agree with Calibandar that his narrative lost it's potency in TTT. I found his character interesting, but I had a hard time relating to him (maybe cause I am not a barbarian!). When he started dealing with the skin-spies, I thought there was going to be some big twists for Kellhus but that whole interaction went nowhere. That said, I still like books where I cannot predict what will happen next. Keeps it interesting!

[unJon]

It would make internal sense -- a three trilogy series following 3 generations of self-serving bastards. Although that feels a little...precious...to me. Ah well, we'll see how this pans out.

It feels a bit Dune-ish to me, but Bakker admits to that book having a big impact on him.

[Bittersteel]

Just finished, and this definitely vaults TPoN into the #2 spot on my all-time fantasy list. Fantastic writing and amazing climax. A few thoughts:

- The whole Saubon thing...I interpreted this as another one of Kellhus' grandiose plots. Given Saubon's utter devotion to Kellhus after Mengedda Plain, I wasn't buying the whole "I'm an independent King and we're going to part ways" thing; it's obvious they planned it out in Caraskand. Meanwhile, as Cnaiur realizes, Kellhus knew Conphas would revolt in Juktha. Tying the two together, the plain conclusion is that Kellhus anticipated Conphas' return and directed Saubon to counter this. Which has a number of flaws.

1. Conphas would have routed Saubon and smashed the Holy War were it not for Achamian. Any argument that Kellhus knew - all along - that Achamian would be there (ie went out and sat there so Achamian would go there the following day) is a bit far fetched, IMO.

2. This plot seems overly complex. Why didn't Kellhus simply equip the garrison at Juktha better? Conphas would have been killed in the act of revolt (the only way he could justify his death) and Cnaiur, at that point, would have been easily disposable. Unless he anticipated the whole "meet up with Skin-spies and finish off Moenghus" thing, which, like 1, is waayy too far-fetched.

- Why is Kellhus innocent and the Dunyain sinners? Does his alleged connection to God negate his willingness to use people indiscrimminately?

- I need a refresher on the Seswatha/Celmomas rift. Why did this occur (I was under the impression that the two reunited during the scene in which Celmomas prophecies the return of the Anasurimbor), an does it necessarily parallel the Achamian/Kellhus fallout?

[john]

The Dunyain being sinners is only to do with sorcery, not with their manipulation of normal folk. When the Dunyain realise that they are potential sorcery users this will be enough to trigger the logos, the thousandfold thought, which will lead them to the same end as the Consult. This might take a while, Moenghus hadn't mastered the ttt after thirty years, but it's inevitable. It's the only logical Dunyain conclusion to the problem of sorcery and the outside.

Kellhus has mastered the ttt and disgarded it and he believes the reason he could do so is because the god has been speaking to him. So he can't be sinful if he's the god incarnate. His willingless to use people doesn't matter.

[Analu]

A few thoughts:

1. Conphas would have routed Saubon and smashed the Holy War were it not for Achamian. Any argument that Kellhus knew - all along - that Achamian would be there (ie went out and sat there so Achamian would go there the following day) is a bit far fetched, IMO.

2. This plot seems overly complex. Unless he anticipated the whole "meet up with Skin-spies and finish off Moenghus" thing, which, like 1, is waayy too far-fetched.

Yeah, both of your points are nagging at me, too, but I thought I must have misread or skipped over some explanation, and was in the process of rereading TTT. How does Kellhuss anticipate these events so precisely, if he's not yet God-incarnate at that point in time? There's literally no margin for error.

There's a lot of that in this series, though. Case in point: in the Warrior Prophet, if Saubon had been destroyed after heeding Kellhuss' advice and splitting off the Holy War army, then Kellhuss would have been discredited.

And I'm still annoyed at the interaction (or lack of) between Kellhuss and Maithanet. M was built up to be such a powerful force in TDTCB, influencing Proyas and Achamian and just about everyone else thru sheer force of will. Yet all we get at the end of TTT is Maithanet ceding everything to Kellhus and fawning over him just like everyone else. Ugh. Surely another son of Moenghus would have a stronger personality.I would have been fascinated to read some scenes with Kellhuss and his half-brother.

[Calibandar]

John

When the Dunyain realise that they are potential sorcery users this will be enough to trigger the logos, the thousandfold thought, which will lead them to the same end as the Consult.

Note that the Dunyain may not be magic users at all. Being Dunyain certainly does not equate to that, as far as they know it is non-existent and if they came into contact with it, only those Dunyain belonging to The Few could wield it.

Kellhus has mastered the ttt and disgarded it and he believes the reason he could do so is because the god has been speaking to him.

I don't think Kellhus has discarded the Thousandfold Thought at all. If TTT can be described as a transition rule that transforms the faits of the Fanim and Inrithi into one powerful whole, wielded by a great ruler in the struggle against the No0God, than TTT has been achieved. That is what Moenghus seems to have intended with the Thousandfold Thought.

[RevCasy]

1. Conphas would have routed Saubon and smashed the Holy War were it not for Achamian. Any argument that Kellhus knew - all along - that Achamian would be there (ie went out and sat there so Achamian would go there the following day) is a bit far fetched, IMO. 1. Conphas would have routed Saubon and smashed the Holy War were it not for Achamian. Any argument that Kellhus knew - all along - that Achamian would be there (ie went out and sat there so Achamian would go there the following day) is a bit far fetched, IMO.

2. This plot seems overly complex. Why didn't Kellhus simply equip the garrison at Juktha better? Conphas would have been killed in the act of revolt (the only way he could justify his death) and Cnaiur, at that point, would have been easily disposable. Unless he anticipated the whole "meet up with Skin-spies and finish off Moenghus" thing, which, like 1, is waayy too far-fetched.

Maybe I misread something, but I was under the impression that Maithanet arrived with Saubon, after having convinced him to continue on to Shimeh. I think the main reasons I got this impression is that when Saubon's force arrives it is accompanied by "there are no nations any more" or words to that affect. This idea, this concept of no more nations could have been initiated by Maithanet as part of his mission from his father (Moenghus) to help unite the Three Seas under Kellhus. Secondly, we next see Maithanet at the coronation of Kellhus, without any other hint of his arrival in Shimeh.

Now, if I am correct, Maithanet and Saubon arriving at just the right time is either a pretty big deus ex machina, ooor... Moenghus called for Maithanet because he anticipated that Kellhus would be crowned emperor and/or he anticipated that the Holy War might need a little help and knew of Saubon's staying behind.

All of this brings up an interesting point. Kellhus must have lied to Maithanet about Moenghus' fate.

[Happy Ent]

Finished the book, read that thread. Wow, wow, wow.

No sentient trees (I was hoping for some kind of Kellhus-vs-Ent duel when the old man said there is but one tree......) but otherwise wonderful, though-provoking, intelligent, alert, consistent, breathtaking and infinitely satisfying.

Weaknesses with the writing remain. As somebody observed, there are too many 3rd person summaries. These feel rushed, I don't connect to anybody, and I hence don't care.

But Bakker is getting there, we had much fewer of these in TTT than in the first three books. Note how he writes the scene where Maithanet leaves, through the eyes of two prostitute boys. That's as good any Martin prologue; perfectly realised characters that give us plot information, makes the world come alive, and tell us how Maithanet is perceived by the smallfolk. We even get a good information dump on how a Shrial knight is dressed, so we can picture them and have a feeling for the level of technology of this fictional world. (Note to Bakker: maybe put such things at the start of your next trilogy.) I assume such storytelling tricks are craft, and Bakker is getting better and better at them.

Some themes from this thread:

Conphas raped: one detail: remember how he boasts about having the Scylvendi prisoners at Kiyuth raped in the beginning of this scene. How their shame is sooo Scylvendi. That's why Cnaiür rapes him. And why he doesn't care later. (Because caring would just make him a weak barbarian.)

Dunyain sinners: It's pretty clear that our favourite eugenic monks are sinners in any system of morals ever devised by man (fictional or, say, Christian). Remember the scene where young Kellhus learns to read faces? A whole room full of people with their faces and brains laid open, merely so that some Ishuäl teenagers can do their homework. Unbearable pain. And Moënghus still does this—he has a woman and a child in his torture chamber for his skin spies. He doesn't care at all, of course.

Not so Kellhus. Note that in the Face Reading 101 scene, young Kellhus actually is very disturbed (by Dunyain standards) about this, even though he quickly masters his natural qualms. Later, we see him feel what he thinks is pity or compassion (is that when Serwë is raped by Cnaiür first time?). And at the circumfix he weeps. Kellhus actually cares.

Well, of course it's ok to kill 20000 people in a city that closes your gates to you. The end justifies the means for Kellhus. But still. The end is actually worthy. (He thinks so. I might disagree.) The end is actually to do the work of God. That's not sinful.

On the other hand, Dunyain have no higher end to justify his means. No moral purpose. Only domination. So they are sinners, while Kellhus isn't.

(Of course, if you are on the torture table it doesn't much matter if Moënghus or Kellhus plies you. It still hurts. But Kellhus tortures you for the God. Moëngus tortures you for—what? Nothing. In the morality defined by the God, Moënghus is a sinner and Kellhus isn't.)

Another argument, closer to Christian theology (than to end-vs-means economics): Kellhus already died for his sins.

Plot holes. The one thing I was expecting in TTT was an explanation for the two biggest "railroading" instances: Kellhus by accident runs into Merekretig (sp?). And Cnaiür finds him by accident is found almost dead on the grave of Skiötha.

Yes, the Shortest Path from Ishüal to Shimeh might go through Dothraki Scylvendi lands. But still. The Sranc attack right there? And just the right size to have Kellhus' group just exactly kill them but leave Kellhus half-dead?

I don't buy it. I fully accept that Moënghus could be able to control people, including Kellhus, via his mad Psûkhe skillz to make Kellhus walk the right path through the land. Some kind of combined Compulsion and Calling cants. I expected this to be explained.

Instead we learn that talking to people he knows in their sleep taxes his capabilities. Would he be able to remote-control Mereketrig and Kellhus and Cnaiür to force all these encounters?

Other: Having Akka take on the Nansur colums was infinitely satisfying. I had a biiig grin on my face. In general, Bakker gets amazing mileage out of his magic system, visually. The geometries of the Gnosis! The Water! The analogies! Sorcerers climbing stairs. It simply looks great in my mind's eye.

Things I had guessed. 1. We already had guessed that gramma was a skin spy. A big yes! moment when Xerius fondles her erection and recoils in disgust. Do we still agree that we see the original model in Darkness? Why did she let him approach her? Seems the Consult had an important agent in her. Are skin spies so weak that they simply cannot resist temptation? 2. As soon as Kellhus got Serwë pregnant (showing us that it was important to keep the blood line alive) I had Maithanet = Möengus' son. Moënghus had to breed as well, and the Shria just fit. 3. Mallahet = Moëngus was expected by many of us, too. 4. We already had glimpses of Inchoroi philosophy in an early scene in Darkness, when the Synthese scolds a skin spy. (Is that on the balcony? I can't remember.). Nice to see it all fit so well, giving us a wonderfully motivated completely alien race, evil in a good way. (I.e., not Sauron who's just evil because he's evil. And neither "evil because we are misunderstood". The Inchoroi are really, really bad news.)

[Werthead]

Just reposting this from Wotmania Other Fantasy, where a poster named Cheeseburger recently met up with R. Scott Bakker and Steven Erikson:

Hi all,

Yesterday I spent 45 minutes on a bus, 1.5 hours on a ferry, another hour on a bus followed by a 30 minute walk and a 1.5 hour wait in front of Bolen Books in order to meet Steve Erikson and R. Scott Bakker. It was worth it.


As mentioned, I arrived early and had a chance to peruse the large mazelike bookstore and chanced upon the Sci-fi fantasy section. Lo and behold, several copies of The Bonehunters rested on the shelf. I snatched one up (thus forcing me to return the one I ordered from Amazon.uk once it arrives) so I could get it signed. Not wanting to feel like a loiterer, I parked myself down on a bench within the mall in front of the store.


Staff set up a small stage and seating for about 50 people (only about 25ish or so showed up) and I plopped down in the first row. Several minutes later an extremely tall man showed up and began talking with the event coordinator (who also did the recent review of TTT and got the timeline wrong for Aspect emperor 40 instead of the actual 20 years post TTT). As Dylanfanatic warned me, this must be Bakker, even though it was hard to tell with his new hippy-haircut.


Following another early bird, I brought up my 3 trade versions of the series to get signed. Scott is a very personable guy and was a pleasure to chat with. He holds Dylanfanatic in high regard as I found out when I told him I thought it was cool of him to include our beloved Admin in his acknowledgements. In adition to signing the books, Scott also opens the book to a random chapter heading and jots down some of the quote found there on the title page. An extra touch that shows he's very appreciative of his fans. In the middle of his signing my books, Erikson shows up and I think I witnessed the first real life meeting between the two authors. Erikson gave Bakker the new hardcover releases of The Healthy Dead and Blood Follows and brought another set to be given out in a draw.


Then came the reading. Erikson was first and instead of reading from the Bonehunters, he brought along a few pages from book 7: Reaper's Gale. The passage he read concerned Nimander Golit (male) and his sister Phaed (female) who are the offspring of Anomander Rake and Lady Envy according to the Draconean Family tree that's been up online for a while. It was a descriptive passage of Phaed from Nimander's PoV. They are on a ship after the events of HoC and are now under the protection of another Tiste Andii whose first name I can't recall, but last name is DuKorlat, so it might be the Korlat we've seen before. Anyways, the gist of it is the siblings don't really know what to do and Nimander is quiet and introspective while his sister seems to be very spiteful and angry about theire present situation and wants to murder the Korlat person.


Erikson then fielded a few questions. I asked several and here are some of the responses. There will be no Hounds of Light. He has many maps made up for the source book. He mentioned Adam's map and gave him some kudos. He writes 4 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. He didn't want to comment much on how the magic works and would prefer to keep it a bit of a mystery, though he said a lot more is explained in BH.


Before Bakker's reading he took the opportunity to publically thank Erikson for his help in the writing process and promotion and got everyone to give SE a hand.


Bakker then read a passage from TTT involving Achamian's return to the holy war and his first site of Esmenet. As a speaker he gave the characters different voices which was pretty cool. He has a psycho triller called Neuropath coming out soon but he didn't really feel satisfied or as involved with it as with PoN and he said he can't wait to get back to Earwa. The comment was made that their seemed to be many parallels with present day politics, which actually influenced some early publishers to turn the series down.


After that came the signing where I got all 6 main Malazan books signed as well as Blood Follows and the introduction to Night of Knives. Erikson said that ICE was working hard on his next novel. Also I passed Adam's thanks on to him for the kind words he made about Adam's world map, to which he replied "that's cool"


And it was cool. Definately worth the trip.

[john]

Cali,

Note that the Dunyain may not be magic users at all. Being Dunyain certainly does not equate to that, as far as they know it is non-existent and if they came into contact with it, only those Dunyain belonging to The Few could wield it.

That's true. But it seems that the fact that even one of them could potentially do sorcery is enough to set them on the same path as the consult. Essentially, all it takes is for the Dunyain to discover the existence of sorcery and knowledge of its blasphemy. The only way to master circumstances where sorcery is at play is to shut off the world to the outside. The Dunyain may well be sinners in the ordinary sense, what with torturing and face peeling, but that doesn't seem to figure in Kellhus' deductions.

I don't think Kellhus has discarded the Thousandfold Thought at all. If TTT can be described as a transition rule that transforms the faits of the Fanim and Inrithi into one powerful whole, wielded by a great ruler in the struggle against the No0God, than TTT has been achieved. That is what Moenghus seems to have intended with the Thousandfold Thought.

Yes, I agree. That's what I meant basically. Kellhus has exhausted the TTT, while Moenghus is still struggling with its permutations. Moenghus sees up to the point that the lands and faiths can be united to fight the Consult. But Kellhus sees farther to what that means, including the fact that Moenghus or any other Dunyain will eventually fight for the Consult. The difference is that Kellhus concedes that the god is working through him, which Moenghus doesn't consider. The TTT is only mastered when you admit the role of the god in acting through the ruler created by the Holy War.

[Nathanael]

Cali,

That's true. But it seems that the fact that even one of them could potentially do sorcery is enough to set them on the same path as the consult. Essentially, all it takes is for the Dunyain to discover the existence of sorcery and knowledge of its blasphemy. The only way to master circumstances where sorcery is at play is to shut off the world to the outside. The Dunyain may well be sinners in the ordinary sense, what with torturing and face peeling, but that doesn't seem to figure in Kellhus' deductions.

I still don't think the Dunyain are supposed to join the Consult to avoid damnation, but to remove the taint of the Outside, which screws with their Conditioning, Probability Trance, Shortest Path, etc. Kind of like (if you've read the Hyperion Cantos) how the Technocore could predict everything if only it weren't for the time fluctuations around the Time Tombs on Hyperion.

Ent,

Maybe those coincidences could be explained not by Moenghus, but by the influence of the Outside, setting things up for it's prophesied savior?