Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

[delete this account pls]

Things I had guessed. 1. We already had guessed that gramma was a skin spy. A big yes! moment when Xerius fondles her erection and recoils in disgust. Do we still agree that we see the original model in Darkness?

I just re-read Darkness, and I'm pretty sure Istriya was a skin spy from the first moment she appears 'on-stage'. In her first appearance, Xerius notes that she is acting strangely, and one of the ways to pick a skin spy is a sudden change in behaviour/habits. When Conphas returns to Momemn he also notes that Istriya is acting differently. Lastly, when talking to Skeaos, Conphas realises that Skeaos and Istriya are plotting together to disrupt the Ikurei plans for the Holy War - and we can assume Skeaos was a skin spy from the start. All thee facts are meant to be hints, IMO, that Istriya was replaced with a spy sometime before Darkness begins, or some point before her first appearance in the book.

[Nas!]

I can't read your thread because I haven't finished reading TTT, but I would like to say that I'm going to see R. Scott Bakker read and sign books in 3 hours.

*gloats*

*leaves*

[unJon]

Ent,

You missed the big one coincidence in the beginning. Where Kellhus is basically dead in the snow and happens to be found by Leweth's (SP?) dog.

The Meketrig coincidence didn't really bother me as Bakker wanted to show us some Sranc and non-men in the beginning, and there is no indication that it is meketrig in the book. When I read that Bakker said that later, I was just like, cool, whatever.

The Saubon/Conphas death is what really bothered me. I didn't think it was set-up well enough, even though in hindsight we can say, sure Kellhus must have planned it.

Brady, yeah, I think that the nasty Grandma was definitely always a skin-spy. There is also the part in TWP where she is way too interested in how Skeaos was discovered.

Btw, there is some good speculation going on over at the the www.three-seas.com forum if anyone wants to join in.

[Happy Ent]

You missed the big one coincidence in the beginning. Where Kellhus is basically dead in the snow and happens to be found by Leweth's (SP?) dog.

I'm ok with that. Leweth's dog is not the same dog who nailed twenty-thousand cats at the Wall of Mewing and Whining during the Canîne–Fëline wars and who actually bit another Anasûrimbor thousand of years ago. He also isn't the Most Violent of Dogs who happened to be sodomised by Moënghus thirty years ago, and Kellhus hasn't collapsed on the grave of the dog's father. He's just some dog, and Leweth is just some man.

[john]

Moenghus can't guide events. But the god can guide them (or whatever passes for the god).

[Xray the Enforcer]

I'm ok with that. Leweth's dog is not the same dog who nailed twenty-thousand cats at the Wall of Mewing and Whining during the Canîne–Fëline wars and who actually bit another Anasûrimbor thousand of years ago. He also isn't the Most Violent of Dogs who happened to be sodomised by Moënghus thirty years ago, and Kellhus hasn't collapsed on the grave of the dog's father. He's just some dog, and Leweth is just some man.

Let's not even get into the Shrïmp-Õctopûs wars, and what I did there...

[Xray the Enforcer]

Btw, there is some good speculation going on over at the the www.three-seas.com forum if anyone wants to join in.

I keep trying to get into those forums -- I need to lurk for another few weeks before I get the hang of it...

[the Flying Dornishman]

Hmm,I probably should have waited a bit before I joined too,now it`s to late to pretend I understand what`s going on in those books...

But anyway,I`m still waiting for tTT to arrive and I was wondering about those coincidences myself.

Perhaps Kellhus really is a prophet and that`s why but it seems a bit

"ta`veren"to me.I never really liked that concept so I was hoping for Moenghus`s mad Psukhe skillz or something like that.

Maybe it will work anyway

About the Saubon/Conphas thing,while I really like Scott`s writing and think the PoN is a wonderful first work (or second work or third)

I sometimes feel that the "narrative function" of a character shines through too much.

I`m not sure what it`s called in English but to use the above example when I read about them it`s like I can hear a thought like-

"Well,the Fanim are going to remain quite shadowy and mysterious throughout the books and so will the Consult so there should probably be an an antagonist closer to home.There should also be something to slow down Kellhus conquest of the holy war and provide some resistance,let`s make this the same person.He/she must be quite competent and stay alive until the end,but at that point Kellhus is going to be too busy to kill him/her so there would have to be someone else,preferably with some prior history so it doesn`t come out of the blue..."

And so on.

I realise other authors does this too but I feel like ,say;GRRM is better at hidig it.

That came out a bit more critical than I wanted.

Please blame it on my inferior English skills,I do like the PoN.

[Xray the Enforcer]

That came out a bit more critical than I wanted.

Please blame it on my inferior English skills,I do like the PoN.

no worries. hell, english is my mother tongue, and sometimes my words don't come out correctly either.

[Galactus]

Finished it a few days ago.

For some reason it felt.... Short. It wasn't bad or anything, but when I finished I had a definite feeling of "Is this it?" (Might help that the last books I read were GRRM & Eriksson....)

The sorcerous battles were *great* (love the descriptions of "The Water-Bearers of Indara") I have always had a weakness for wizards who can level mountains and Bakker delivers 'em in spades. Excellent stuff.

Loved how Moënghius couldn't master the Psûkhe because "It is sorcery of the heart" and the Dûnyian don't have hearts

Also loved when Achaiman basically said "Fuck you" to Kellhus, and that Conphas legions followed him against Kellhus.

The farther the book progressed, the more I started sympathising with the Fanim in fact.... And I absolutely *hated* how Kellhus mastered the Gnosis and was suddenly able to do something no-one but a legendary nonmen warlock-king had been able to.... Grrr....

[Xray the Enforcer]

Loved how Moënghius couldn't master the Psûkhe because "It is sorcery of the heart" and the Dûnyian don't have hearts

Yeah -- this was one of my favorite little "Fuck You, Dunyain" details. Made my grin my shit-eatin' grin when I read that part.

[drawkcabi]

I just finished the book a few hours ago.

First of all, props to EHK for calling Kellhus out. The guy is a prick and the hatred I felt for him seethed throughout my reading of TTT. It was a good hatred though. I found Kellhus' character very interesting to read, it was good he was created just so I can read about his demise, hopefully at the hands of Akka. But I'm also not dismissing the idea that Bakker could be sadistic enough to let Kellhus triumph over all in AE. If that happens...well I'll just have to see if I recover from my aneurism to decide how I feel about that.

The pacing at the end...I just couldn't bring myself to care about the 3rd person naratives during the battle at Shimeh. This Earl or that Palatine or whatever was getting killed facing so and so's faction of the Fanim. I did't really know any of these characters so I couldn't get into the fights. I kept rushing though those parts to get to the next Kellhus or Akka pov.

All in all though I really enjoyed the series and would put Bakker right up there with Martin in terms of writers I love to read. PoN took an emotional toll on me even though Akka was the only character I felt sympathy towards, well Esmi too in the beginning and even after all she's done I still feel for her a little but now it's countered with a feeling of loathing towards her.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Yeah. I feel a profound sadness towards Esmi. She was as blinkered as anyone by Kellhus, completely used. And her vulnerability (especially after Akka's troubles with the Red Spires) made her a perfect target. Plus, Kellhus needed Esmi to act as a lever against Akka. In all -- I was disappointed that she wasn't stronger, but she really stood no chance against the Dunyain. Only the sociopaths (Conphas, Cnaiur) can do that.

[unJon]

Are you implying, X-ray, that the lovable Akka might be a sociaopath?

[Xray the Enforcer]

Are you implying, X-ray, that the lovable Akka might be a sociaopath?

no. but remember, he was drawn in at first, too.

I was speaking of inherent immunity to Kellhus, not earned immunity (which Akka suffered a hell of a lot to gain -- kinda like he got it beaten into him.)

[delete this account pls]

Esmenet must just be confused as hell. Akka has died twice now, and she's attempted to move on, only to have him come back both times.

I found it interesting that Akka first begins to overcome the spell Kellhus has cast over them all, and gets a glimpse of Kellhus' true self before Cnauir actually told him the ruth concerning the Dunyain. When Xinemus dies, Akka is grief stricken so much that he just doesn't buy any of Kellhus' bullshit. Xinemus was like a part of Akka, perhaps even more than Esmi. They apparently look so alike they could be brothers (and I'm sure it's deliberate that Xinemus is marshall of Atrempus, the so-called 'sister' fortress of Atyersus) and Xin is Akka's only friend. He's had plenty of lovers before, but Xin is his only actual friend in the world. It's like when Xin died, a part of Akka died too, and his emotions were blasted enough to make him temporarily immune to Dunyain manipulation. When Cnauir's revelation comes, Akka isn't even surprised. He's almost figured it out himself.

I wonder if anyone else will 'wake up' from Kellhus spell in a similar fashion.

[Calibandar]

I got the idea that it was Kellhus' total inaction with regards to any attempt of healing Xinemus which did it for Akka. He confronted Kellhus with this and finally broke free from the Whelming; it just occurred to him that Kellhus, this great God-given Prophet who can perform miracles and who possesses this vast intelligence, had nothing for Xinemus.

In a way this is strange because there had been a couple of other very painful and humiliating moments for Akka, moments when I as a reader thought "Hey, he's still not snapping out of it". The whole Esmi as Kellhus' consort thing for one.

[Happy Ent]

What I also liked is that the only person who sees clearly is Xin. Namely, that Kellhus doesn't actually heal, which seems to be a basic skill for a prophet. (Sorcery, which is mockery of God, destroys. The God's work is supposed to do the opposite.) Kellhus cannot do that, so he is not a prophet. That is Xin's observation, and that is what makes Akka "snap out of it". The blind man sees clearly, for he is not baffled by Akka's bravado. Xin is eternally bitter, and Kellhus has nothing to offer those who do not hope.

I would very much like to re-read the Kellhus–Xin interactions in Warrior Prophet now.

[Benjen Stark]

That was one of the best reads I've had in a long time that wasn't a re-read.

A little late to the party, but here's some thoughts:

- Cnaiur/Conphas:

Cnaiur was a little off his rocker from the beginning, but Kellhus drove him completely over the edge using Serwe and his own delusions. I loved what he did to Conphas, because the three of them were all soulless sociopaths by the last book. As Kellhus began to gain the feeble beginnings of emotions and morality, Cnaiur lost most of whatever he ever had and Conphas gained human frailties as a result. I thought it was very evident in multiple places what Cnaiur did. Conphas even decided that it must be Cnaiur's strange form of love for him like it was with Serwe.

- Saubon's sudden appearance:

The very, very first thing Kelhus asked to learn was the Cants of Calling. I think that explains why Saubon showed up at just the right time. Kellhus knew how to talk to him and Conphas didn't hide himself from Saubon, planning to reach the Holy War first.

- Akka:

Is Seswatha reborn, with all of Seswatha's frailties and indestructability. That's why he lived. He cast a "skin ward" and clearly it must have preserved him long enough for the Ciphrang to die. The fisher folk probably saw him fall from the sky or similar but have only one limb harmed and thought it was a miracle, especially as his clothes were probably obliterated by the Ciphrang (not being protected by the ward).

I understood where Bakker was taking him and I think he has to be outside the renewed Empire to be the ongoing protagonist of the entire story, a bit like the Fool in Hobb's books. Esminet was the last anchor that bound him to them, so he had to cut it free and give up any remaining reason for staying. I suspect that by the end of the Aspect Emperor, he will learn to do two inutterables as well or will become the surrogate father for one of Kellhus's children, just to keep the parrallels with Seswatha as strong as possible.

Also, I think Kellhus is the reason for the dream that is different. Kellhus hypnotized Akka and brought out Seswatha to convince him to teach Kellhus the Gnosis. That had far greater implications than the short term and is part of why Akka is suddenly different from the other Mandate. His version of Seswatha is altered and aware of Kelhus's nature. It probably also disrupted the degree to which the two are separate identities.

- Cnaiur's end:

Is not complete because of Proyas, IMO. Cnaiur will come back as a Tekne-monstrosity with only one Chorae implanted in him. I think this because I think the interaction with Proyas is something that Bakker would want to do. Proyas didn't change at all in the end because he was primed by Maithanet and therefore already altered almost as much as he was going to be, but running back in to Cnaiur will have a massive impact on them both.

- Maithanet:

Will figure heavily in the Aspect Emperor, IMO, and Bakker didn't want to write something that he couldn't later change with the story not yet fully planned. Just my guess.

I still wonder quite a bit if Kellhus isn't meant to parallel the Anti-christ of Revelations.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I was kinda disappointed that Achamian did not die. I could not care less about the Kellhus and the other characters.

However it seems like I will have the get the "The Aspect Emperor" when it comes out because I want to know what happens with Achamian.