Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

[Happy Ent]

nanoprobe restart... thread resurrected...

I know there is a current Bakker-thread, but most of us are spoilering it heavily. Thus I continue on this old thread, officially spoilerish...

Inspired by this forum, I re-read the Kellhus, Cnaiür, and Serwë POVs in Darkness. Very satisfying. Serwë is indeed the first to notice Kellhus' halos, and she does so very early on.

Also, I must admit that I never realised the Pragma actually trying to kill 11-year old Kellhus after his days-long meditation. But it's true. One shouldn't read Bakker too fast, it seems.

But the question I really have is: when did the Inches realise they were damned, or rather, is this damnation particular to Eärwe? Would they be not damned on Maximegalon? Is it the prospect of their death (and ensuing damnation) that makes them suddenly genocidal (instead of just murderously hedonistic), or is it their death in Eärwe? Had their spaceship not crashed, presumably killing all the Inchonerds that were capable of replacing the hardware, patching the microkernel, recompiling, and boldly going to their next fuckfest, — had it not crashed, could the just leave for another planet with a different metaphysics?

That would be weird, wouldn't it? Our normal concepts of The Outside (whatever we usually call it) is literally universal. But if the metaphysical rules of Eärwe also hold on other worlds, then (1) why didn't the Inches find out before? It seems they had better scientists before their catastrophe, and (2) how does purging Eärwe help when Maximegalon is still so full of souls?

[Errant Bard]

As far as those halos go, and given what we know of magic, specifically the psûkhe, it would seem to me that they are a projection from the watcher.

What I mean is that Khellus is not a prophet at the start, but when someone believes he is one strongly enough, it gives him this aura, in the eye of the believer. Belief and passion bring forth god's power and impart it to Khellus. Therefore it is not a surprise if Serwë is the first to see them. Khellus himself seeing them in TTT would be another hint that he has lost it and has become an egomaniac, that he truly believes that he is what people think he is.

Also, Re: differing metaphysics, I think Inches just found out about it because they suddenly ran out of pangalactic gargle blaster when they crashed.

[john]

But the question I really have is: when did the Inches realise they were damned, or rather, is this damnation particular to Eärwe? Would they be not damned on Maximegalon? Is it the prospect of their death (and ensuing damnation) that makes them suddenly genocidal (instead of just murderously hedonistic), or is it their death in Eärwe? Had their spaceship not crashed, presumably killing all the Inchonerds that were capable of replacing the hardware, patching the microkernel, recompiling, and boldly going to their next fuckfest, — had it not crashed, could the just leave for another planet with a different metaphysics?

That's how i read it. To continue my argument from the other thread, I gathered that this was the Inchoroi's first encounter with a world like our own, containing men and menlike creatures. They may or may not be descended from similar creatures but they are so far advanced that they have long since rejected or forgotten the notion of damnation.

The question is whether that makes them similarly naive to the other inhabitants of Earwa, or clever enough to know that the metephysics are unsympathetic here, for whatever reason.

[wolverine]

Sorry to bring this thread back up, but I have not read The Judging Eye yet and had a question pertaining to this thread.

I was out bowhunting, did not have my current read but a friend had returned TTT to me and it was in my pickup so I read/skimmed the last 100 pages or so and had some questions. This is one of very few passages I have reread in the last ten years and I think it is awesome.

Does anyone know for sure what "the thousandfold thought" is? Is it still open to interpretation? There seems to be a fair amount of variability on here and on the Three Seas board.

[Cantabile]

I don't have my copy right now to thumb through, but from what I remember "The Thousandfold Thought" wasn't explicitly detailed, so much as fleshed out a bit and then left for the reader to interpret. Bakker adores the unique synthesis of book and reader, and leaves most things just obscure enough so that each individual forms can form their own unique interpretation.

[jurble]

Yeah, the TTT is never outright explained. But it's supposed to be, I guess, the ultimate probability trance, to effectively take over the Three Seas, and humanity and to lead them against Golgotterath.

[candysyum]

Has there ever been a discussion or general consensus on cnauir's sexuality? Even though meonghus seduces him at the end of TTT, considering his reaction to his uncle accusing him of being a "faggot", I kind of got the vibe that he was for the most part heterosexual.

Than I found this somewhat ambiguous passage during re-read..

TTT pg.98

I'm forgetting...

He drowsed. His copper wine bowl slipped from his fingers and rolled across cracked stone. Events from the previous evening slurred through his soul. Conphas baiting him at the gates. Conphas arguing the terms of his internment. Conphas restrained by his generals. His cuirass glaring white in the sunlight. His long-lashed eyes. I'm... The scylvendi sitrred in sudden remembrance, rolled his head about his massive shoulders.

I'm cnaiur ...Breaker-of-horses-and-men.

He laughed, drowsed some more, dreamed...

The passage in and of itself seems pretty straightforward in that cnauir was attracted to Conphas. But taken in the context of the last few scenes it could mean anything. Maybe Conphas just has really shiny armor and long lashes? There's a few other scenes like this to.

The more I think about it the more it seems it was just open to interpretation.

[Lies And Perfidy]

The more I think about it the more it seems it was just open to interpretation.

Much like normal human sexuality, yep.

[jurble]

Nah Cnaiur is pretty gay. His favorite wife, is his favorite wife because she reminds him of Moenghus. Serwe is Cnaiur's "proof" as he calls her - proof that he's not gay. But Cnaiur is pretty straight-gay, not bisexual.

[Lann_Boys'Girl]

Alright, I hope y'all forgive me. I read this series in random bursts over a long period of time and didn't consult (ha! pun) any forums for help parsing. I loved a lot of it but the ending kind of underwhelmed me. Reading over these posts it's starting to sound like, what, the Inchoroi were some space-traveling civilization whose ship crashed into Earwa? Or is that just board humor? Sorry if I'm sounding mentally incapacitated, haha.

Also, what exactly happened to Iyokus?

[kuenjato]

Alright, I hope y'all forgive me. I read this series in random bursts over a long period of time and didn't consult (ha! pun) any forums for help parsing. I loved a lot of it but the ending kind of underwhelmed me. Reading over these posts it's starting to sound like, what, the Inchoroi were some space-traveling civilization whose ship crashed into Earwa? Or is that just board humor? Sorry if I'm sounding mentally incapacitated, haha.

Also, what exactly happened to Iyokus?

There are hints of the sci-fi background in-text, but most of the information comes from the monstrous appendix at the back of TTT. See Apocalypse and Cunoi-Inchorai Wars, I think.

Iyokus.... hmmm, read The Judging Eye.

[gladius]

Alright, I hope y'all forgive me. I read this series in random bursts over a long period of time and didn't consult (ha! pun) any forums for help parsing. I loved a lot of it but the ending kind of underwhelmed me. Reading over these posts it's starting to sound like, what, the Inchoroi were some space-traveling civilization whose ship crashed into Earwa? Or is that just board humor? Sorry if I'm sounding mentally incapacitated, haha.

Also, what exactly happened to Iyokus?

Yes they crashed on the planet, discovered they were damned and started slaughtering everyone else to save themselves.

Iyokus is still alive

[Tears of Lys]

Nah Cnaiur is pretty gay. His favorite wife, is his favorite wife because she reminds him of Moenghus. Serwe is Cnaiur's "proof" as he calls her - proof that he's not gay. But Cnaiur is pretty straight-gay, not bisexual.

Wasn't he hot for Proyas too? On a reread I thought it was pretty clear (without actually coming out and saying it.)

But where did you get the reference to the previous wife and how she reminds him of Moenghus? I must have missed that. Because she was blonde? (at least I assume so, because Serwe reminds him of the wife, and she's blonde.)

[kuenjato]

Wasn't he hot for Proyas too? On a reread I thought it was pretty clear (without actually coming out and saying it.)

But where did you get the reference to the previous wife and how she reminds him of Moenghus? I must have missed that. Because she was blonde? (at least I assume so, because Serwe reminds him of the wife, and she's blonde.)

ToL - on my last re-read I really picked up on that as well.

[arya_underfoot]

what exactly is damnation?? (in the context of PoN)

in our world, afaik, it means something like being condemned to eternal punishment for committing "sins"...i dont really understand what damnation refers to in PoN. in fact, in tje, it becomes even more confusing with plenty of references to damnation but no explanations.

[Happy Ent]

what exactly is damnation?? (in the context of PoN)

in our world, afaik, it means something like being condemned to eternal punishment for committing "sins"...i dont really understand what damnation refers to in PoN.

The same. Eternal torment for your soul. One of the conceits of Bakkerworld is “what if damnation were real”? Bakker takes the metaphysical reality that we (in RealWorld) thought we lived in in the Olden Days and makes it “really real” in his world. When you sin you really, really go to hell.

(Yet still, the definition of what constitutes sin is ultimately a social convention. That’s another of Bakker’s conceits, and orthogonal to the first.)

[Adept Havelock]

Nah Cnaiur is pretty gay. His favorite wife, is his favorite wife because she reminds him of Moenghus. Serwe is Cnaiur's "proof" as he calls her - proof that he's not gay. But Cnaiur is pretty straight-gay, not bisexual.

I agree that he's homosexual in the novels, the more interesting question is was he always gay, or did Moegenus'(sorry about the spelling) seduction of him turn him gay? I just think that Moegenus breaking him so completely, including his sexual identity, could explain why he was so batshit crazy when he managed to piece himself together.

[Nerdanel]

I agree that he's homosexual in the novels, the more interesting question is was he always gay, or did Moegenus'(sorry about the spelling) seduction of him turn him gay? I just think that Moegenus breaking him so completely, including his sexual identity, could explain why he was so batshit crazy when he managed to piece himself together.

I doesn't work that way. I think Moënghus picked Cnaiür because he realized the boy was a closeted gay and therefore easier to manipulate. Later on Cnaiür became so messed up because he tried to overcompensate for his perceived sissiness by acting the most macho and homophobic in a culture that was already overtly macho and homophobic. The idea was that if he acted that way no one else would realize that what Cnaiür really wanted was to feel safe on the strong male arms of his beautiful lover. It's the same thing in our world that the most outspoken homophobes tend to be gay themselves.

[Adept Havelock]

I doesn't work that way. I think Moënghus picked Cnaiür because he realized the boy was a closeted gay and therefore easier to manipulate. Later on Cnaiür became so messed up because he tried to overcompensate for his perceived sissiness by acting the most macho and homophobic in a culture that was already overtly macho and homophobic. The idea was that if he acted that way no one else would realize that what Cnaiür really wanted was to feel safe on the strong male arms of his beautiful lover. It's the same thing in our world that the most outspoken homophobes tend to be gay themselves.

That interpretation also works with the text but I find it a bit coincidental that the youngster he is able to seduce is the son of the chief who holds him captive. I think its just as likely that Moënghus finds the shortest path to escaping is to make Cnaiür fall in love with him and does this by managing to completely change his sexual identity. This screws him up to the massive degree we see in Darkness that comes Before. Cnaiür is messed up to a degree none of the other Dunyain victims are; he was forced to murder his father, disregard his entire culture and basically raped and turned into a pervert (from his point of view before any angry replies).

[Antonius Pius]

That interpretation also works with the text but I find it a bit coincidental that the youngster he is able to seduce is the son of the chief who holds him captive. I think its just as likely that Moënghus finds the shortest path to escaping is to make Cnaiür fall in love with him and does this by managing to completely change his sexual identity. This screws him up to the massive degree we see in Darkness that comes Before. Cnaiür is messed up to a degree none of the other Dunyain victims are; he was forced to murder his father, disregard his entire culture and basically raped and turned into a pervert (from his point of view before any angry replies).

Don't forget, normal men are like children to Dûnyain. Moënghus simply saw all Cnaiür's secret desires written on his face. That's why he chose Cnaiür: because he was the shortest path. His hidden desire made him easy to manipulate. Kellhus himself tries to use the exact same ruse as Moënghus did. Cnaiür is different from other men in that he has used all this time to reflect on what happened, and why. He has driven himself insane with it. At root, it's his shame about falling for Moënghus' wiles and at the same time being actually in love with him. This, and the perceived "unmanliness" (if that is a word) about it, coupled with the stares and whispers of his tribe.