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Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread


Calibandar

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Wasn't he hot for Proyas too? On a reread I thought it was pretty clear (without actually coming out and saying it.)

Cnaiur is gay but he's not gay for Proyas at all, in my opinion. I think he thought of Proyas as the son he never had. It explains why he tries to mentor Proyas and why he saved him in the desert. I really saw an adopted son vibe in many of their interations.

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That interpretation also works with the text but I find it a bit coincidental that the youngster he is able to seduce is the son of the chief who holds him captive. I think its just as likely that Moënghus finds the shortest path to escaping is to make Cnaiür fall in love with him and does this by managing to completely change his sexual identity. This screws him up to the massive degree we see in Darkness that comes Before. Cnaiür is messed up to a degree none of the other Dunyain victims are; he was forced to murder his father, disregard his entire culture and basically raped and turned into a pervert (from his point of view before any angry replies).

Sorry. You can't MAKE someone gay. I'm pretty sure that Bakker doesn't want to insult gays and lesbians by implying that it is something that can be manipulated or changed. Little different than "making" a white guy black. If this was Bakker's choice, and despite my love for the series, i'm pretty much done with it. The notion is pretty insulting.

I've realized what my biggest problem with the series is. Now, i love the four books, i really do despite my initial resistance. But i find the notion of damnation deeply offensive. As an atheist, i think the idea of damnation is pretty stupid. Taking what was basically a means of social control for the catholic church and any other powerful entity for the last thousand or so years, and making it a stark reality, is disturbing. Not because of the implications, but simply that by positing such a notion one can almost justify all the shitty stuff that has been done in the name of beings that do no exist.

But thats just my own opinion. One that i have little time to expound upon thanks to work. Chow.

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I'm also in the camp that thinks permanently changing someone's sexual orientation should be way beyond even a Dûnyain.

I think the concept is damnation and what it really means will be a key plot point in the series and I'm expecting revelations about it in the future books, revelations that will shock the more religious among the audience (if any).

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Bakker's way too much an essentialist to believe that's possible, and way too dogmatic to put it into his fiction anyway. Cnaiur is just attracted to men; whether he's gay or bisexual doesn't matter so much.

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men deceive themselves.

I think it would be exactly like bakker (and based on some of his sources, it's probably likely he's playing with the idea to fuck with people's beliefs) to have Cnaiur's sexual orientation to have been affected and molded--to a degree--by Moenghus. I'm not at all of the beliefs that gays are "made" or can be changed but plasticity in human sexual response is well documented in females. It would be a typical Dunyain ability to offer sexual responses from Moenghus to Cnaiur as well as using sexual cues from Moenghus intended to turn Cnaiur on. Moenghus does not seem to have a problem with plasticizing his sexuality in order to bend Cnaiur to his will, and Kellhus initially attempts the same thing.

and even if Cnaiur weren't gay (I think he was) it wouldn't be beyond Moe's skills to make the gay sex he gives Cnaiur so awesome that even if Cnaiur were straight he'd probably never get the same degree of pleasure he got from Moe attempting to manipulate him during and with sex, so he's probably be beating himself up and craving some Moe-like attention for most of his life even if he weren't attracted to males (as he clearly is).

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Between Moe and the scylvendi culture, there is no point wondering how screwed up Cnaiur is. To assert he is gay, bi or straight (or naturally inclined to pork holes in the group) is moot. Cnaiur doesn't seek, can't fathom and cannot form a nurturing relationship with anyone, regardless of gender. So he is not sexually oriented by attraction but rather by the emotional damage he has sustained and can perpetuate. To claim he is gay by virtue of his actions is just as offensive as saying he is straight. He is just plain abusive and his targets are chosen accordingly.

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Between Moe and the scylvendi culture, there is no point wondering how screwed up Cnaiur is. To assert he is gay, bi or straight (or naturally inclined to pork holes in the group) is moot. Cnaiur doesn't seek, can't fathom and cannot form a nurturing relationship with anyone, regardless of gender. So he is not sexually oriented by attraction but rather by the emotional damage he has sustained and can perpetuate. To claim he is gay by virtue of his actions is just as offensive as saying he is straight. He is just plain abusive and his targets are chosen accordingly.

A pretty good asseemment. I'd also add that it's more a case of the Dunyain making people love them regardless of sexual orientation. Clearly this would confuse someone, especially a Scylvendi. Probably part of Cnaiur's problem is that sex to him is an ownership/power thing and the fact that he loved Moenghus was/is an alien concept to him.

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I've realized what my biggest problem with the series is. Now, i love the four books, i really do despite my initial resistance. But i find the notion of damnation deeply offensive. As an atheist, i think the idea of damnation is pretty stupid. Taking what was basically a means of social control for the catholic church and any other powerful entity for the last thousand or so years, and making it a stark reality, is disturbing. Not because of the implications, but simply that by positing such a notion one can almost justify all the shitty stuff that has been done in the name of beings that do no exist.

This was somewhat diturbing for me at first too. Then I figured it's just a way of Bakker's to challenge the reader to think how morbid and, for lack of a better word, unfair religions could be if they were actually true. It's meant to be offensive. I think we can safely exclude the possibility of Bakker being a devout catholic in secret.

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This was somewhat diturbing for me at first too. Then I figured it's just a way of Bakker's to challenge the reader to think how morbid and, for lack of a better word, unfair religions could be if they were actually true. It's meant to be offensive. I think we can safely exclude the possibility of Bakker being a devout catholic in secret.

No. If religions were actually true, then they would make sense. But there has been enough done in the name of shitty religions without looking further into the intangible qualities that they espouse to their partially deluded followers.

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No. If religions were actually true, then they would make sense. But there has been enough done in the name of shitty religions without looking further into the intangible qualities that they espouse to their partially deluded followers.

Religion in Bakker's world makes perfect sense. God is real. Do what he says, or you go to hell.

Bakker is just actually taking this long-held idea at face value, instead of pussying out like pretty much every other fantasy author who includes Gods that are real does.

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This was somewhat diturbing for me at first too. Then I figured it's just a way of Bakker's to challenge the reader to think how morbid and, for lack of a better word, unfair religions could be if they were actually true. It's meant to be offensive. I think we can safely exclude the possibility of Bakker being a devout catholic in secret.

I find your lack of faith disturbing. :D

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Between Moe and the scylvendi culture, there is no point wondering how screwed up Cnaiur is. To assert he is gay, bi or straight (or naturally inclined to pork holes in the group) is moot. Cnaiur doesn't seek, can't fathom and cannot form a nurturing relationship with anyone, regardless of gender. So he is not sexually oriented by attraction but rather by the emotional damage he has sustained and can perpetuate. To claim he is gay by virtue of his actions is just as offensive as saying he is straight. He is just plain abusive and his targets are chosen accordingly.

Meh. He was daydreaming about how pretty Conphas was. Just because he doesn't act on those feelings doesn't mean he's sexually oriented by the emotional damage he has sustained and can perpetuate.On the other hand, he's violent mostly because that's what's expected of him; it never mentions him getting off by beating his wives. You say to make claims on his sexuality by virtue of his actions is offensive but that's what you just did.

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No. If religions were actually true, then they would make sense. But there has been enough done in the name of shitty religions without looking further into the intangible qualities that they espouse to their partially deluded followers.

No they wouldn't. At least not the ones existing in the real world anyway. Way too many inconsistensies. You should realize that what's done in the name of religions is just things people normally do. People are people, religion is just a pretext.

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Meh. He was daydreaming about how pretty Conphas was. Just because he doesn't act on those feelings doesn't mean he's sexually oriented by the emotional damage he has sustained and can perpetuate.On the other hand, he's violent mostly because that's what's expected of him; it never mentions him getting off by beating his wives. You say to make claims on his sexuality by virtue of his actions is offensive but that's what you just did.

No (I was refering to inclusive generalizations) and no (I did not assert one).

I noted on my neice's beautiful long lashes the other day. Doesn't make me a pedarist.

Here's my point (again - just for you), gay men seek other men for relationships, sexual and emotional, straighties seek opposite gender individuals for the same. Cnaiur seeks individuals based on proximity for sexual and emotional abuse, dominance and torture. But because he thinks Conphas' eyelashes are pretty we should assume he's gay. :stunned: Which is more somehow more compelling than the fact that he has (more traditionaly) wives and children at home that he doesn't think of (like most straight men on business trips), but ultimately, equally unimportant.

Whether Cnaiur is fantasizing about Conphas' lashes or not, there is no follow through to what he wants to do about it until he actually rapes him. There's the thing. Despite what homophobes fear, gay men don't actually rape people as part of seduction and conversion to the gay 'dark side'.

Bakker puts shit like the eyelashes thing in so as to be suggestive and subversive, to disturb the reader. It ain't proof of anything, it's an opportunity for you to question the associations you draw.

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Despite what homophobes fear, gay men don't actually rape people as part of seduction and conversion to the gay 'dark side'.

Good point, male on male prison rape is extremely common, but the rapists are rarely gay themselves. the gender of rape victims doesn't necessarily convey sexual orientation of the rapist.

And perhaps we should view Moe's use of Cnaiur as statutory rape. it certainly contains classic signs of emotionally abusive and manipulative strategies on the part of Moe.

Or maybe we just don't want to think of the Dunyain shortest path as inclusive of pedophile strategies?

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Y'all are stating gay or straight like it's a binary thing. Cnaiur can want to fuck men and women and have a preference for one or the other; moe could have simply encouraged that feeling that is (statistically) in most mens views.

It's really unlikely that Cnaiur is even partially bisexual - his desire for Serwe is more about asserting his power/dominance and to prove to himself that he is a 'normal Scylvendi' (which he is not, both sexually and intellectually). Cnauir never misses his Scylvendi wives, except for the one that looked like Moenghus.

Certainly, sexuality can be expressed as a spectum. But for Cnauir, he is so obviously, completely 100% homosexual - his 'attraction' to women is an ongoing charade mostly for his own benefit.

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And perhaps we should view Moe's use of Cnaiur as statutory rape. it certainly contains classic signs of emotionally abusive and manipulative strategies on the part of Moe.

Or maybe we just don't want to think of the Dunyain shortest path as inclusive of pedophile strategies?

Definitely true, when profiling pedophiles they term Moenghus' behaviour as 'grooming' and it is a big part of twisting and destabilizing the victim's subsequent worldview without therapy.

Re Cnaiur, its like trying to work out if a bestial necrophiliac is 'gay' by reveiwing the gender of the corpses they have didled.

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plasticity in human sexual response is well documented in females.

(Emphasis added by me.) Since when did Cnaiur become female?

I don't disagree with your stated fact, but we're talking about a male character, and the well-documented plasticity in females does not carry over to a plasticity in males. If anything, male sexuality is as emphatically non-plastic as female sexuality is plastic.

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