Notable Fantasy Magic Systems?

[AverageGuy]

Bakker's magic system is NOT language based. The language used is, ultimately, irrelevant. It's about MEANING.

I'm not really seeing how that's not language-based. Or you're defining language-based differently from me. LANGUAGE is about meaning. Bakker's sorcerers require language in order to express their meaning; sorcerers are constantly mentioned reciting or singing, and learning a new language is even given as a necessary first step in learning sorcery. The language itself may not matter, but the magic's still ultimately reliant on spoken spells.

BTW, it's not the gemstones themselves that are used to power the magic, it's the stormlight within them (which is finite, but can be refilled by simply leaving the gems outside during a storm).

One of the things I most like about Brandon Sanderson is not the magic systems themselves but the idea of a definite power source. I know you've got other systems which use power from Outside Forces or Inner Mana -- and I've liked several of those systems -- but Allomancy and Stormlight (and this Breath stuff, apparently, but I haven't read Warbreaker yet) are great because the source is tangible and because you have to keep on refueling.

Robin Hobb does very well in Elderling world with the magics of Wit and Skill and the interplay between them. Her Hedge magic, though, comes out of the blue and is a bit fuzzy.

I always thought Hedge Magic was related to the Wit the way Scrying was related to the Skill. The one Hedge Witch we see directly instead of through hearsay makes charms, one of which has an effect on predators much like repelling, and another which prevents conception, which seems like it comes out of nowhere until you consider the way Burrich heals people and the way Fitz heals the Fool. She also makes a charm which makes people more inclined to trust Fitz, resembling the Come-Hither Call Swift uses on Thick and the raccoon. Added to that how the Hedge Witch mentioned that she could learn it but her sister couldn't and it seems to be one of the bloodline magic systems. The fact that you can do everything a Hedge Wizard could do directly if you've got the full Wit or that a Scryer can do and more if you're powerfully Skilled makes me think they're for those who are relatively weak, like Kettricken.

[Gormenghast]

Bakker's magic system is NOT language based. The language used is, ultimately, irrelevant. It's about MEANING.

Yeah, he copied it from Wittgenstein ;)

[Jacen]

Just a few random tidbits:

-I like Bakker's the best. It makes sense within the world, it's cool/badass, and it's not too over-powered. In fact, I've often wondered if ol' Kellhus would have been better off not even touching the magic and just walked around with a couple dozen chorae. I suppose the advantages of it far outway the negatives in the end, but still.

-As flawed as WoT is, the magic system is pretty cool and can do some interesting things. Balefire and traveling were interesting ideas.

-I really hate the magic systems that are like: grind one ounce of bat guano with a fire mandrake scale and mix with virgin's tears, and whamo! Fireball! It just seems really lame and makes no logical sense whatsoever. Of course, we are talking about a fantastical, fictional thing, but it still should have some logic to it. I'm far more likely to believe magic could possibly come from within someone's body/soul than from grinding together some random stuff and muttering words.

-We've talked about this over the years, but one thing that I think remains relatively untapped, is magic as a tool. In so many series magic is basically used solely to blow shit up. I think it would be cool to explore further the other potentials for it. In a primitive or medieval world magic could really do wonders besides killing, yet few authors focus on that.

[kungtotte]

Yeah, I'm always pleasantly surprised on those few occasions when they use magic to make everyday life easier, because that's exactly how people work. If you look at the advancements of agricultural tools and subsequently the industrialisation it's all about producing more for the same amount of work put in.

Even just simple stuff, like magical lamps. No need to make candles or buy lamp oil any more. Axes that never need sharpening. Magically enforced sailcloth and/or magically braced masts would mean ships could sail in much harder winds than before. Barrels of freshness that keeps whatever is in them from spoiling would mean ships could carry much more in the way of fresh fruit and raw meat, making for healthier crews and longer voyages.

And coming up on more advanced things, how about a desalination/purification mechanism that would allow ships to restock their fresh water straight from the sea?

[Stubby]

And coming up on more advanced things, how about a desalination/purification mechanism that would allow ships to restock their fresh water straight from the sea?

Juliet McKenna kind of did that in the Einarin series. Her magic system was basically elemental, so the water mage on the ship could extract the salt.

[AverageGuy]

-I really hate the magic systems that are like: grind one ounce of bat guano with a fire mandrake scale and mix with virgin's tears, and whamo! Fireball! It just seems really lame and makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Burn one husband, one priestess, and three petrified eggs, and whamo! Dragons? :P

[Horselover Fat]

Yeah, he copied it from Wittgenstein ;)

Wittgenstein had a magic system? Tractatus Logico-Magicus?

Edited to add evidence of sarcasm

[elur]

A small contribution from less often read, but still great books:

C.Y.Cherryh: Rusalka, Chernevog, Yvgenie

Magic is done by wishing.

Great storytelling and language, not best dialogue. You can imagine things can go wrong wishing, a good example is an excellent The Lathe of Heaven by U. Le Guin.

M. Rawn, J. Roberson, K. Elliot: The Golden Key

Magic is done by painting.

One of best co-operations makes a great read from otherwise average authors. After more than a decade, another book is on the way (yes, our dear George has not the reached top of this ladder...yet). Somehow doubt it will have the quality of The Golden Key.

[MinDonner]

Actually surprised no-one's mentioned Master of Five Magics yet, which has (yes) five separate magic systems (lovingly but inaccurately

by Mr Mustaine and his friends) - can't remember all of em, but there was one that involved spending years or decades imbuing an object with magical powers, one that was like the doctrine of signatures, one that you needed potions and ingredients for... then, the sequel went a step further and showed that particular set of five systems to be just one variation of many, and the bad guy had a device which switched the world to a new system so none of the old types would work, or something (this might be a spoiler if it were less vague)... it's been a while since I read it, as you can probably tell. :unsure:

[aimlessgun]

Actually surprised no-one's mentioned Master of Five Magics yet, which has (yes) five separate magic systems (lovingly but inaccurately

by Mr Mustaine and his friends) - can't remember all of em, but there was one that involved spending years or decades imbuing an object with magical powers, one that was like the doctrine of signatures, one that you needed potions and ingredients for... then, the sequel went a step further and showed that particular set of five systems to be just one variation of many, and the bad guy had a device which switched the world to a new system so none of the old types would work, or something (this might be a spoiler if it were less vague)... it's been a while since I read it, as you can probably tell. :unsure:

Well now I know where sympathy in the Name of the Wind came from!

[Jacen]

Burn one husband, one priestess, and three petrified eggs, and whamo! Dragons? :P

lol

Well! It makes more sense than the example I gave. You're killing to give other things life, and you got three dragon eggs...so thats a bit more "believable".

[aimlessgun]

Yeah, I'm always pleasantly surprised on those few occasions when they use magic to make everyday life easier, because that's exactly how people work. If you look at the advancements of agricultural tools and subsequently the industrialisation it's all about producing more for the same amount of work put in.

Have there been any books that had a magic-industrial revolution?

[Tsavong Lah]

Have there been any books that had a magic-industrial revolution?

Well, one could argue that this happened during the Age of Legends in Wheel of Time. Ter'Angreal are basically devices that use a system of magic (the "Source" or the "One Power") to accomplish tasks. Many of the tasks they do are still fantastical, but there are a ton of practical Ter'Angreal as well. It seems that during the age of legends they had things such as planes, some type of electricity, and other such modern conveniences all powered by the One Power.

[Touchstone]

Have there been any books that had a magic-industrial revolution?

The only one that comes to mind is Stephen Hunt's The Court of the Air, and the following books. For the life of me I cannot remember exactly how magic is explained in those books, but it comes across as sort of a form of super-pseudoscience. I guess? I remember stuff about ley lines and gods taking possession of robots (called steammen) to enhance them magically. The books themselves aren't spectacular examples of writing, but they're all in good fun and have a bizarrely intriguing mix of steampunk and magic.

If I can find some place explaining how the magic works I'll get back to you, but it's the only real example I can think of that combines practical magic and an industrialized society.

[strings]

L.E. Modesitt jr. had a fairly interesting magic system in his Saga of Recluce series. It is basically based on the balance of order and chaos in the world. Order mages can use their magic to support and enhance the natural order of objects such as making wood or metal unnaturally strong. Chaos mages on the other hand manipulate the natural chaos in the world and can do things like focus the surrounding chaos into an area to make a bolt of fire. Both sides have a cost to using their magic as well. Things around Chaos mages tend to deteriorate at an accelerated rate such as wine turning to vinegar almost before they can even drink it. This also causes them to age unnaturally fast and the stronger they are and the more they manipulate chaos the quicker it happens. Order mages are afflicted with things like disorientation and sensory deprivation when they directly or indirectly cause chaos through the use of their magic. This includes things like hurting someone with a staff enhanced by their magic. The more order in an area or object, the more powerful order mages become and the opposite is also true. There is also an inherent senese of balance that is needed because if the world shifts to far towards chaos, a powerful order mage will be born to counteract that and if it shifts towards order, a powerful chaos mage will be born.

One unique thing in the series is that chaos mages are associated with white, while order mages are associated with black which is outside the ordinary for fantasy series. The reason given is that white is a naturally chaotic color as it is a combination of all colors, while black is naturally an order color.

Also as to the magic-industrial revolutution, one of the books in the series "the fall of angels", somewhat tells the origins of magic in the recluce world. The magic came to the world through a war between a group called angels and one called rationalist. The angels used very advanced weaponry that were very similar to order magic based while the rationalist used very chaos based weaponry. One of the angel ships in the war was caught in an explosion and the survivors found themselves transported to the recluce island. Order mages descended from the angels while chaos mages descended from the rationalist(demons).

[Horatz]

Why did nobody mention any no Animé magic systems so far? :D

Naruto, in spite of a huge list of shortcomings, has a fairly interesting interpretation of the concept of Chi .

Magic is divided into Kekke Genkai, which are abblilities or talents which are passed on by blood and manifest as a dominant trait in each generation.

An important group are Kekke Genkai affecting the eyes, which grant different enhanced talents related to perception.

The other group are the normal Jutsu which require a series of handsigns (which are derived from RL zodiak signs but have Zero "mythical" relevance in world) and the mental focus to properly shape your life-force.

If you know the signs, but aren't trained to release your lifeforce in a controlled manner, the effect will either not appear or fizzle out before accomplishing anything.

Lifefore or Chakra is composed of physical strength and mental prowess, and a training of both increses the amount available.

[elur]

Have there been any books that had a magic-industrial revolution?

Magic and industrial evolution:

Check The Iron Dragon's Daughter by M. Svanwick, one of my all time favorite fantasy novels.

A novel in same fantasy world came out recently, but was not as good.

[aimlessgun]

Thanks all for the continuing references.

Well, one could argue that this happened during the Age of Legends in Wheel of Time.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. Perfect example.

Why did nobody mention any no Animé magic systems so far? :D

Naruto, in spite of a huge list of shortcomings, has a fairly interesting interpretation of the concept of Chi .

I hadn't even considered anime but I suppose there's no reason to discriminate.

[AverageGuy]

Have there been any books that had a magic-industrial revolution?

When I think fantasy+industrial revolution, I think steampunk. Though I suppose that's mostly set in the latter years of industrial revolution, and a lot of it's scientific-ish rather than magical. But I think Brandon Sanderson's said something about his next Mistborn books being industrial-revolution-based.

[Gigei]

Garth Nix's Old Kingdom series

(from the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Kingdom_trilogy)

In the Old Kingdom, magic takes two forms: the Charter or Free Magic. The Charter is described as an "endless flow" of marks. There is a mark for everything in the universe, including marks representing other marks. Marks are drawn and cast as magic, such as binding, burning, lifting and the like in strings of different marks.

But IMO the more interesting magic is that of the Abhorsen and the necromancers. Necromancers are the bad guys and the Abhorsen fights them and the Dead. They use seven bells, each of which has a different effect.

Ranna, the Sleeper; takes all those who hear it into slumber.

Mosrael, the Waker; throws the ringer further into death but the listener into life.

Kibeth, the Walker; gives the dead freedom of movement or forces them to walk at the ringers will.

Dyrim, the Speaker; grants speech to dumb, tongueless dead, or gives forgotten words their meaning, it can also still a moving tongue

Belgaer, the Thinker; restores independent thought and memory to those who hear it, it can also take it away.

Saraneth, the Binder; shackles the dead to the ringer's will. Favoured by all the Abhorsens

Astarael, the Weeper, also named Sorrowful; casts all those who hear it (including the ringer) into deep death.

The books are great, btw, and are coming-of-age YA stories that even adult fantasy readers can enjoy.