Gay Characters

[Lady Blackfish]

It wasn't intended at all to be a nudge and a wink, and I don't think it's necessary to assume that it was. In ASOIAF color vs black and white has a bit of a thematic meaning, black and white and grey referring in some vague sense to the harder aspects of the business of living, while colors seem to celebrate the more vivid art of life, as it were. Renly was a guy who liked to enjoy life, so rather than the dour black of the Nights Watch or the antiseptic white of the Kingsguard, it seemed like an appropriate bit of symbolism to me.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Hints that Renly may be gay.

1. Renly and Margaery (sp?) Tyrell were married, but their marriage was never consummated.

2. Cersei's thoughts about Renly and the hippocras.

3. Conversation between Loras and Jaime.

4. Rainbow cloaks. (Granted that could be more of an homage to the crystals that the septs use to worship the 7, as they do make nice rainbows in the sun. Or GRRM could be a Jeff Gordon fan. ;) )

GH

1.5. Sansa and Loras' conversation relating to Renly early in aSoS (he's nice to her at first, but then gets super stiff and cold when Sansa asks how Marg is dealing with Renly's death).

[Myrish swan]

Hints that Renly may be gay.

1. Renly and Margaery (sp?) Tyrell were married, but their marriage was never consummated.

2. Cersei's thoughts about Renly and the hippocras.

3. Conversation between Loras and Jaime.

4. Rainbow cloaks. (Granted that could be more of an homage to the crystals that the septs use to worship the 7, as they do make nice rainbows in the sun. Or GRRM could be a Jeff Gordon fan. ;) )

GH

6. Stannis's comments to Renly about how the latter's wedding was "a mummer's farce" and how Margery is likely to stay a virgin forever being married to Renly. This is where I first caught on that Renly was not into the ladies, though this has probably already been mentioned.

Looking over this thread, I've realized that there are plenty of cool, unstereotypical gay characters, but not one straight up lesbian character. Don't get me wrong; I know there's been plenty of lesbian "action," but it seems as though that is being presented merely to titilate male readers. The same sex female hook ups that we see are all with women primarily attracted to men "experimenting," and, as a result, finding that they greatly prefer men.

Dany, her handmaiden, and Cersei could never be described as gay. At most, they would be bisexual; even that seems unlikely, since both Cersei and Dany come away from their lesbian experiences with the mentality that "its way better with a guy." Its kind of funny in a way-- we get all the details about Cersei's and Dany's encounter in a way that seems aimed to titilate male readers. Then, afterwards, we have the women thinking things to ensure the average male reader not feel threatened-- after all, another woman could never satisfy Dany or Cersei the way a man could!

I realize I'm being sort of a troll here. The scenes featuriing Dany/ handmaiden and Cersei/ Taena are not gratuitous, they are used to further develop certain aspects of these characters. And obviously, I would not want GRRM to add in a "token lesbian" character just to be PC or satisfy some readers.

Still, I can't help but keep feeling that it would be cool to see an unstereotypical lesbian who only likes women. (I realize that this is the definition of a lesbian, however, in the media we all too often get the revelation "surprise! She just now realized that she goes both ways!") It seems strange that with the men, we get no explicit scenes, but plenty of great gay characters-- Loras, Renly, probably the Blackfish, and also possibly Bariston Selmy. On the other hand, with the women we get lots of graphic descriptions of the sex, but not a single lesbian character.

[Myrish swan]

Something's been bugging me in regards to Robert and Renly-- namely, did Robert know Renly was batting for the other team? And if so, did this effect their relationship in any way? I remember it was mentioned that Robert could barely stand his brothers (Renly and Stannis.) Now nobody needs to ask why Robert would hate Stannis, closer of brothels and destroyer of pleasure. But why Renly? The two seemed to have pretty compatible personalities.

Was Robert's distaste for Renly due to the fact that the former was disgusted by homosexuality?

On the other hand, could it be possible that Robert was such a big dumb oaf that he never even realized Renly was gay? To me this last option seems the most likely. Any thoughts?

[Rinso]

Hm. Robert does seem like the rowdy alpha-male type that would detest gays. And, besides, Renly's sexuality is not exactly a carefully hidden secret. Since guys like Jaime and Oberyn Martell seem to know about it, and about his relationship with Loras, and they never had much in common with either of them, I think it's safe to assume that Robert knew too.

I think that Robert saw Renly as a weak copy of himself. He's all charming smiles and jests, nice clothes and flashy behavior, but, as much as he looks like Robert, he has nothing of his brawn. Robert probably, at some level, thought of Renly as a caricature of what he once was, and his sexuality probably didn't help either.

[Mad Monkey]

Didn't Robert give Renly Storm's End? They can't hated each other that much, right?

[Rinso]

Who else he could have given it to? After Stannis had to get Dragonstone, Renly was basically the only family left. Besides, nobody is talking about hatred. But it is somewhat true that all the Baratheon brothers are kinda dysfunctional and don't like each other all that much.

[Mad Monkey]

Who else he could have given it to? After Stannis had to get Dragonstone, Renly was basically the only family left. Besides, nobody is talking about hatred. But it is somewhat true that all the Baratheon brothers are kinda dysfunctional and don't like each other all that much.

I don't understand why Stannis had to get Dragonstone. Couldn't he have given Renly Dragonstone and Stannis Storm's End? Stannis seems really pissed about not getting it.

[Rinso]

Because Renly was a child at the time and he couldn't have governed the most Targ-loyalist place in Westeros. Besides, before Joffrey was born, Stannis was Robert's heir and Dragonstone was the traditional seat of power of the heir apparent.

[mummer]

Looking over this thread, I've realized that there are plenty of cool, unstereotypical gay characters, but not one straight up lesbian character.

Well, that we know of.

Renly and Loras aren't POV characters; all we know about them is what other characters have noticed and talked about. And I think it's plausible that characters in Westeros would be more likely to notice and talk about the gayness or suspected gayness of a man than a woman, because masculinity and male heterosexual potency are so bound up with the power structure of their society. Women have pretty rigidly defined gender roles too, but their sexual interests aren't considered important or in need of proving in the same way as men's. The aristocracy wouldn't be worried about whether a woman doesn't like men enough to get married and have children-- she'd be expected to do so anyway. So I think it's plausible that the sexual preferences of female characters in ASOIAF are just not going to be expressed as clearly.

Take Taena Merryweather. Is she just "experimenting", as Cersei is? If so, she certainly seems to be way more into it than Cersei is. She's married, but we don't see any great chemistry between her and her husband. Suppose she's 100% gay; would she think of herself that way? Maybe she just always assumed women aren't supposed to enjoy sex with their husbands.

Don't get me wrong; I know there's been plenty of lesbian "action," but it seems as though that is being presented merely to titilate male readers. The same sex female hook ups that we see are all with women primarily attracted to men "experimenting," and, as a result, finding that they greatly prefer men.

....

I realize I'm being sort of a troll here. The scenes featuriing Dany/ handmaiden and Cersei/ Taena are not gratuitous, they are used to further develop certain aspects of these characters.

That's kind of an unusual way to approach an argument. I mean, I guess if you immediately admit that you didn't mean the thing you just said, it's not exactly trolling (or not very effective trolling anyway), but it does make it hard to tell what point you're actually trying to make.

I disagree that those scenes are just for titillation... but you disagree with yourself too, so OK.

But I also disagree with your reading of the Cersei/Taena scene. I don't think she was experimenting with women and realized she preferred men; she was experimenting with a crazy role-playing power trip, imagining herself as her drunken abusive husband, because Robert - as awful as he was - seemed to be capable of having fun in a way she's never been able to. And what she realizes isn't that she prefers "men"; it's that nothing's ever been any good except with Jaime. She's probably straight, but she's so twisted and miserable that I really can't see Cersei's POV as being any kind of endorsement of the awesomeness of heterosexuality.

[Mad Monkey]

That's a great point. Isn't Storm's End traditionally the seat of power for House Baratheon? Stannis has the better claim, but Robert gave it to Renly. He probably could have justified giving Dragonstone to someone else or even ruling it directly himself, couldn't he? I mean, I know that this particular guy couldn't handle the responsibility, but I can definitely see why Stannis thinks that Renly gets treated better by Robert than he does.

[Rinso]

Well, apart from the Dragonstone vs Storm's End issue, I honestly don't see how Renly gets treated better by Robert. He basically doesn't care for either of them.

And, yes, Storm's End is House Baratheon's seat of power, but Renly isn't any less a Baratheon than Stannis. I mean, yes, I understand Stannis' bitterness too, but I think he makes a bigger deal of it than it really was. Then again, that's a big part of who he is - he's a grumbler, he absolutely loves to nurse grievances. Robert could have given Dragonstone to someone else... to whom? Whom can he trust with that place more than his own brother, no matter how dysfunctional the relationship between them is?

[Lord Varys]

There is no indication that Robert Baratheon or other manly men consider homosexuality to be an effeminate 'bad' thing. GRRM said that Westerosi culture does not really have a problem with that kind of sexuality. You don't talk much about it, I assume, if you are heir to or actually a powerful Lord who still needs to make a decent match to father any heirs (like Renly). It could ruin your chances on the marriage field a little if you were truly aiming at the daughter of a Great Lord, as some fathers might also think about the daughter's happiness during a marriage, and to be the fifth wheel as the 'legal wife only' to a Lord who is openly living together with his real Lord Husband could be unpleasant/irritating/humiliating. That is, if you didn't know the real deal when the marriage contract was negotiated. Margaery obviously knew the truth about the relationship between Renly and Loras, and she did not mind to play just the official wife.

If you are second or third son no one is interested in this at all, I imagine. We don't know if the Blackfish really is gay yet, but if he is, then Hoster's quarrel with him has nothing to do with that but with the fact that refused to marry although he commanded him to do so as his Lord. Hoster obviously did not command Brynden to stop seeing his boyfriend(s), he was angry that Brynden would not play the part he was supposed to play in Hoster's political plans.

[Myrish swan]

Well, that we know of.

Renly and Loras aren't POV characters; all we know about them is what other characters have noticed and talked about. And I think it's plausible that characters in Westeros would be more likely to notice and talk about the gayness or suspected gayness of a man than a woman, because masculinity and male heterosexual potency are so bound up with the power structure of their society. Women have pretty rigidly defined gender roles too, but their sexual interests aren't considered important or in need of proving in the same way as men's. The aristocracy wouldn't be worried about whether a woman doesn't like men enough to get married and have children-- she'd be expected to do so anyway. So I think it's plausible that the sexual preferences of female characters in ASOIAF are just not going to be expressed as clearly.

Take Taena Merryweather. Is she just "experimenting", as Cersei is? If so, she certainly seems to be way more into it than Cersei is. She's married, but we don't see any great chemistry between her and her husband. Suppose she's 100% gay; would she think of herself that way? Maybe she just always assumed women aren't supposed to enjoy sex with their husbands.

That's kind of an unusual way to approach an argument. I mean, I guess if you immediately admit that you didn't mean the thing you just said, it's not exactly trolling (or not very effective trolling anyway), but it does make it hard to tell what point you're actually trying to make.

I disagree that those scenes are just for titillation... but you disagree with yourself too, so OK.

But I also disagree with your reading of the Cersei/Taena scene. I don't think she was experimenting with women and realized she preferred men; she was experimenting with a crazy role-playing power trip, imagining herself as her drunken abusive husband, because Robert - as awful as he was - seemed to be capable of having fun in a way she's never been able to. And what she realizes isn't that she prefers "men"; it's that nothing's ever been any good except with Jaime. She's probably straight, but she's so twisted and miserable that I really can't see Cersei's POV as being any kind of endorsement of the awesomeness of heterosexuality.

The point I was actually trying to make was that it seemed somewhat strange to me that we got such detailed descriptions of the lesbian sex scenes and no (or so I percieved) lesbian characters. I think that is different from saying that the scenes themselves were horrible, gratuitous, and that I wanted them to be censored or something. I was just pointing out that it seemed odd we got the explicit scenes and no gay characters for females, while we got the oppisite with males--- actual gay characters but no explicit scenes. Furthermore, I was not bringing this up because I thought GRRM should be sued for it or something; I simply found it curious and a point worth discussing. I also realize that it is not the most pressing issue, and to some people it may not even be worth talking about. I thought I'd put it out there, to see if anyone else had thoughts on it.

You make an interesting point about thier sexual preference not being bound up in women's social status in the same way it is for men. Re Taena Merryweather: I'd assumed she was just faking it with Cersei to spy or improve her social status.

[Ran]

Robert told Ned that Loras was the sort of son that any father would be proud to call his own. So ... if he knew about Loras's sexuality (and relationship with Renly), then I think we can say that he was not in fact bothered by homosexuality.

However, I don't believe he knew.

What GRRM has said of Robert and his brothers is the following:

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

The claim that Robert despises his brothers comes from Cersei, but that seems rather contrary to what GRRM writes, so I think we should consider how solid has she proved to be as a source of information. We see no real sign of Robert's animosity to Renly, in any case, except... he does claim that his small council is full of flatterers and fools, and one can't help but notice that Renly was on the small council. Which one did he feel Renly was? A flatterer, a fool, or a bit of both?

I suspect the former, personally. I think he was to some degree aware, for example, of what Renly was doing when he just "happened" to praise the beauty of Margaery Tyrell and whatnot. He knows Renly is a political creature who wants to gain influence and advantage, even if it's not necessarily in Robert's best interest.

[Lord Varys]

Robert shows contempt about Renly's pragmatical behavior in the Daenerys incident on his deathbed. 'Not even my own brother had the guts to say me no, only you Ned' or something like that. That would make Renly really more of a flatterer than a fool. Renly was not stupid, but you can't really say that he had got principles, either. Littlefinger and Renly certainly would be flatterers in Robert's understanding. Stannis, Selmy, Pycelle the fools, I'd assume. On his opinion about Varys I'm not sure. More likely a flatterer, as he would hardly allow a fool to be his spy master...

Oh, and Ran, if you believe Robert was ignorant about Loras's sexuality and his relationship with Renly, do you also believe Robert had no idea about Renly's sexuality, either? I'm not sure were Renly lived most of his life, but I do assume Robert and Stannis took him with them to KL to be raised up with them instead back at Storm's End, even after he was made its Lord. He might have joined the Small Council pretty late, and lived a few years at Storm's End as its Lord after he was a man grown, but I doubt they shut him away like Robert did with Edric Storm. And if the adolescent Renly lived in KL, both Baratheon brothers should have caught his sexual preferences. Stannis obviously knew, so Robert should have known as well...

[Ran]

I think Robert was wilfully unaware of it. He wasn't interested in knowing, and chose not to bother Renly about it (even when drunk, when his tongue as loosened), I think. Which of course implies that somewhere in the back of his mind he suspected.

[mummer]

Or Robert might've just thought: "One more gay man in Westeros - yay! That leaves more women for me!"

[Myrish swan]

I think Robert was wilfully unaware of it. He wasn't interested in knowing, and chose not to bother Renly about it (even when drunk, when his tongue as loosened), I think. Which of course implies that somewhere in the back of his mind he suspected.

Yeah, I think this is the most likely explantion.

However, it would also be sort of funny (and true to character) if Robert was totally oblivious to the fact that his little brother was gay, and kept wondering why Renly would never take him up on his invitations to go to Chataya's together for some brotherly bonding.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Looking over this thread, I've realized that there are plenty of cool, unstereotypical gay characters, but not one straight up lesbian character. Don't get me wrong; I know there's been plenty of lesbian "action," but it seems as though that is being presented merely to titilate male readers. The same sex female hook ups that we see are all with women primarily attracted to men "experimenting," and, as a result, finding that they greatly prefer men.

Dany, her handmaiden, and Cersei could never be described as gay. At most, they would be bisexual; even that seems unlikely, since both Cersei and Dany come away from their lesbian experiences with the mentality that "its way better with a guy." Its kind of funny in a way-- we get all the details about Cersei's and Dany's encounter in a way that seems aimed to titilate male readers. Then, afterwards, we have the women thinking things to ensure the average male reader not feel threatened-- after all, another woman could never satisfy Dany or Cersei the way a man could!

Hehe I agree with this somewhat - I think GRRM writes sex scenes that he thinks are sexy (and well, yeah it kind of makes sense doesn't it? Hard to write a good sex scene if it doesn't titilate you! You won't know if you're doin-it-right. :smileysex: )

But in other news, I always thought Lady Merryweather was supposed to be a lesbian. That is, not attracted sexually to men at all. So it was a bi-curous (Cersei) x lesbian (Merryweather) encounter.