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What's Wrong With Our Youth?


Cantabile

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I find it strangely hilarious, though darkly disturbing, that we can be having a debate about using a word in an offensive way when its relevant meaning has only existed for a handful of years. The word "gay" shouldn't be offensive to homosexuals because people use it to mean "stupid". It should be offensive to everyone, especially poets, because people use it to mean "homosexual" in the first place.

I would feel so happy and gay if I could warm myself this winter with my bundle of faggots, but rain has dampened them and retarded their burning.

EDIT: 3 pgs already. :bowdown: Cantabile.

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I would feel so happy and gay if I could warm myself this winter with my bundle of faggots, but rain has dampened them and retarded their burning.

EDIT: 3 pgs already. :bowdown: Cantabile.

Don't act niggardly with those faggots! I too wish to be gay and happy. Unfortunately the downpour of snow has retarded my ability to retrieve them from you.

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By who???

That shit actually made me laugh a little

Let me pull out this DSM IV and see if I can find it.

By society. "Mental retardation" is still the name of the general disorder, and while it may no longer diagnostically refer to the individuals as "retard" society uses the term for those who suffer from the disorder.

Yes, 'retard' has the original meaning of slow and such, which is why it came to be used for the disorder in the first place, but there's no denying that 'retard' is used to classify those who have mental retardation, and that using 'retard' offensively is wrong because it's referring back to that group.

being stupid may not have been used medically as a disorder but when i say 'cantable, you are a stupid fuck' it is not used as a positive in any which way. just because retarded was used to describe a medical condition does not make it any more or less offensive when used.

I am not talking about offensiveness to the individual it's being directed at, but to the fact that it's insulting and offensive to those who actually suffer from mental retardation.

And I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop aiming thinly veiled insults at me, when I have never insulted you. It's uncalled for.

Ya doesn't work that way, gay just didn't suddenly mean bad it took a long time. Nigger may end up meaning the same thing but it would take a while, right now saying the way you did makes you sound like a moron.

The problem is that the word "gay" came to have a negative meaning because of homosexuality being portrayed and viewed as something negative in the first place. It wasn't some coincidence that people started using "gay" to mean "bad" they were doing it because they thought homosexuality was bad, which is why it's not acceptable to use derogatorily.

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The problem is that the word "gay" came to have a negative meaning because of homosexuality being portrayed and viewed as something negative in the first place. It wasn't some coincidence that people started using "gay" to mean "bad" they were doing it because they thought homosexuality was bad, which is why it's not acceptable to use derogatorily.

that just make the comparison you were making with the word nigger even more moronic. If the meaning of nigger changes it will come to mean a good thing in the context most people use it now.

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Perhaps not in all cases, but it's a good indication of said perpetuation, no?

Well here's the center of this actually quite interesting topic.

We know words are going to get repurposed, and the initial change might definitely be construed as an attack on a certain group. After a while, the word can lose the original meaning in the vast majority of usages, but the knowledge of its past history is still there.

Does the continued usage of such a 'tainted' word, even if its current general meaning is no longer offensive, a contributor to bigotry and oppression? Is it an indicator?

EDIT: I should also note, in my previous playful construction, the word faggot was not in the same league as gay and retarded. The primary use of the word faggot is intended to target and hurt homosexuals, and I think we can all agree it isn't something that is remotely acceptable to use currently.

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that just make the comparison you were making with the word nigger even more moronic. If the meaning of nigger changes it will come to mean a good thing in the context most people use it now.

You think it'd be better if people used "nigger" as a catch-all phrase for things they dislike rather than simply for expressing intense racism? I disagree strongly. If it becomes that socially acceptable, then it's only going to create a stronger atmosphere for racism to breed, as it's normalizing the linking of being black to negativity.

I'd rather have a few people use "nigger" hatefully, than the whole of society using it casually.

Does the continued usage of such a 'tainted' word, even if its current general meaning is no longer offensive, a contributor to bigotry and oppression? Is it an indicator?

My view is that it does, unequivocally, contribute to bigotry and oppression. Our environments shape us, and when our environments make racial groups and sexual orientations synonyms for "bad" then there's no question of how it's shaping us.

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I think that most derogatory terms roots are lost through generations. The use of the N word seems to resonate through the ages, and i still don't' feel comfortable using it. But most other words have taken on other meanings that have nothing to do with oppression or bigotry. Seems like you'd like them to though.

Fuck it, this thread is gay.. i'm out!

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My view is that it does, unequivocally, contribute to bigotry and oppression. Our environments shape us, and when our environments make racial groups and sexual orientations synonyms for "bad" then there's no question of how it's shaping us.

Ultimately I have no answer to this.

My anecdotal evidence disagrees: 90% of my friends in high school unthinkingly used the word gay as a catchall negative adjective, including myself. Almost none of us use it now, because, well, we grew up. And none of us grew up to be anti-homosexual.

That is just a small group of people, of course. But...since you started the thread, I am going to throw the burden-of-proof-ball firmly into your court, and run like hell ;)

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I'm not posting this topic out of boredom, but out of frustration. My wife has always used "retard" derogatorily, despite my protests, and today I was overhearing a group of teenagers that were using every offensive term imaginable as though they were discussing the weather or fluffy kittens. Absolutely enraging and disgusting at the same time.

Your wife wouldn't happen to be from Massachusetts, would she? We sons and daughters of the Commonwealth are taught from birth that the word "retard" is hateful and inappropriate when hurled at a person who is actually developmentally disabled, but correct (and hilariously synergistic with our distinctive accent) to imply that someone who is not disabled is beyond stupid to the point that the possibility of recovery by normal educational means is doubtful. I'm not saying that makes it polite or ethical, but it is an enduring habit of the local culture that takes most of us years to grudgingly break when we move anywhere else. This may be part of why they call us "Massholes..."

There is no comparison: The reason black people have taken to using 'nigger' as a term of affection is because of how powerful and hateful the word was used by those who historically enslaved and treated them like shit. By using it as a term of affection for one another they stripped the venom from the word. It's the same concept as Tyrion explains to Jon in Game of Thrones: You armor yourself in your weaknesses. It's a common strategy that minority groups that are heavily descriminated against employ.

Unlike the gay reclamation of "Queer" and similar examples, however, we're talking about a group whose culture has always been appropriated by white teenagers whenever it produces something that becomes popular. Thus, in this particularly ironic case, it comes full-circle.

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If we didn't lie to our children about Santa they would all be awesome people and would never use "Gay" or "Retard" or whatever else you can think of. And as it's been said before, words are only as powerful as the intent and emotion we put behind them. I actually feel that taking the hate out of nigger and turning into just another word is a good thing, but that might be just me.

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Considering, in my time working with children, I have, as a male, on multiple occasions been told "You like girls? That's gay!", I can safely say the word has lost all meaning in it's translation to an insult.

Still, using it is only really acceptable among teenagers and other ne'er-do-wells. Just like using "Jewed" as a euphemism for being cheated or the like.

Gypped, funnily enough, is perfectly acceptable in any company but that of the pedantic.

Language: as nonsensical as the cultures that spawn it

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Gypped, funnily enough, is perfectly acceptable in any company but that of the pedantic.

That's exactly the same example I was thinking of when reading this thread. Most people I know aren't even aware it was an insult to the Romany people - so it seems that the word has lost all "juice" around it with most people. I'm not sure how many generations (if ever) the negative connotations of being "jewed down" would ever shift.

I have actually called people on using the word "gay" in a negative way, and many are often shocked that I would even consider it as a negative slight to homosexuality. And let's face it, "gay" was appropriated from being "happy" - cuz homosexuals are the ones that have all the fun! :P

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Only jumping in because Cantabile is being unfairly piled on here, and because I can't quite believe that, yet again, we forum of fantasy book geeks are having this same fucking discussion about whether words matter.

My view is that it does, unequivocally, contribute to bigotry and oppression. Our environments shape us, and when our environments make racial groups and sexual orientations synonyms for "bad" then there's no question of how it's shaping us.

:agree:

And as it's been said before, words are only as powerful as the intent and emotion we put behind them.

:disagree:

Damage doesn't have to be intentional to be real. And I am very unsympathetic to this as an excuse to continue with a particular behaviour. Say you're idly kicking at something on the bus, and then find out it's someone's ankle. You say "Oh sorry, I didn't realise." And then you stop kicking. You don't say "well get tougher ankles" or exercise your sacred right to put your feet wherever the hell you want to.

But I've been in too many of these threads before, I don't see this one being any better. Bowing out, and good luck to you Cantabile!

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I'm pretty sure I've seen Cantabile throw the word gypped around... though he spelled it "jipped." But damned if I can't find the quote right now.

And if I'm misattributing it to you Cantabile, I'm sorry. Didn't want to jump on the pile, but it seemed like a decent example of how even the well-meaning among us can forget the connotations of words - if using it in such a fashion even counts. I'm not sure it does, once it's entered popular usage.

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Normally I'm all in favour of the evolution of language, but this leaves a sour taste. "Hey, marginalised group, wider society has co-opted your name to use as an insult, so you either have to rename yourselves or try to proactively get it back. And then we'll bitch about any overly-PC language that is used to replace it." Hear my tiny violin playing for all those poor folk who are being asked to slightly modify their vocabularies.

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