What's Wrong With Our Youth?

[Xray the Enforcer]

I'm pretty sure I've seen Cantabile throw the word gypped around... though he spelled it "jipped." But damned if I can't find the quote right now.

And if I'm misattributing it to you Cantabile, I'm sorry. Didn't want to jump on the pile, but it seemed like a decent example of how even the well-meaning among us can forget the connotations of words - if using it in such a fashion even counts. I'm not sure it does, once it's entered popular usage.

It's right here.

http://asoiaf.wester...15#entry2319815

A mere 3 days ago, even. :lol:

[Young Wolf]

It's right here.

http://asoiaf.wester...15#entry2319815

A mere 3 days ago, even. :lol:

I declare you the winner. This thread may now close.

ALL HAIL X-RAY!

[Week]

It's right here.

http://asoiaf.wester...15#entry2319815

A mere 3 days ago, even. :lol:

:tantrum: What is wrong with our Aged population? :tantrum:

[kungtotte]

For starters they're old and icky.

[TrueMetis]

:tantrum: What is wrong with our Aged population? :tantrum:

Senility.

[Cantabile]

Your wife wouldn't happen to be from Massachusetts, would she? We sons and daughters of the Commonwealth are taught from birth that the word "retard" is hateful and inappropriate when hurled at a person who is actually developmentally disabled, but correct (and hilariously synergistic with our distinctive accent) to imply that someone who is not disabled is beyond stupid to the point that the possibility of recovery by normal educational means is doubtful. I'm not saying that makes it polite or ethical, but it is an enduring habit of the local culture that takes most of us years to grudgingly break when we move anywhere else. This may be part of why they call us "Massholes..."

No, my wife is not from Massachusetts. Plenty of adults here in California use the word freely, so I'm assuming it's just a general American culture deal.

I still don't see how one can even use "retard" and "stupid" synonymously. Mental retardation includes severe impairment of one's adaptive behaviors, symptoms which people without the disease do not have unless due to severe defecits in their socialization, which can be remedied unlike those who are born with mental retardation.

My entire issue with people using "retard" for "stupid" is that it draws a link, saying that people who are retarded are stupid, which is simply not true. Stupid, by definition, is the lack of mental alacrity and keenness compared to what is deemed the ordinary. People with mental retardation are not "stupid" because their intelligence cannot be compared to the normal population, since they suffer from a disease which cripples intellect.

It's right here.

http://asoiaf.wester...15#entry2319815

A mere 3 days ago, even. :lol:

Thank you for bringing to my attention that the word "gypped" originates as an insult against gypsies. I was not aware, and will not use the word in the future.

See, not so hard to change one's behavior when made aware that it can be potentially offensive and demeaning to entire groups of people :)

And "gay" is indeed considered offensive to many. I know for a fact that many schools, as a policy, do not allow students to use "gay" as an insult, as it falls under discrimination in the same way that calling a black kid a "nigger" during class would. At a college I taught music theory at a while back the sociology teachers would give their students a warning if they heard them use it, and then after that throw them out of class if the students did it a second time.

It's interesting: every sociologist, cultural anthropologist, and person whose field of study is the affect culture upon shaping human beings that I know, is highly against people using the words for identities derogatorily. It tends to only be the people who are completely blind to how they're puppets to both agents of socialization, and their peripheral culture, that manage to defend their actions with, "Well, I don't mean any offense!"

[Balefont]

This may be part of why they call us "Massholes..."

Actually, that's because of your state's citizens' wicked retarded driving habits. :P

[Balefont]

In this age of the politically correct, why have such hateful and discriminatory words become seemingly commonplace among the younger generations?

Teenagers call things "gay" as a negative adjective for everything imaginable: "That test was so gay, dude," "that song is gay, turn it off," completely oblivious to how wrong that is. Replace "gay" with any other category, "That test is so Jewish," and you can see what I mean.

I overhear teenagers call each other "nigger" as a playful term of endearment. And I hear people casually use terms of sexual violation for sentences like, "Man, the Yankees ass-raped the Giants in that game last night."

And what's worse, people actually justify using these terms! Teenagers think it's perfectly acceptable to throw around "gay" simply because in their minds the word has multiple meanings, and they're not using the one for homosexuality.

How can people be so blind as to see how this is making atrocious things like discrimination based on sexual orientation, racism, and sexual violation more socially acceptable? I want to vomit on white people whenever they call their friend "nigger."

And for us who are disgusted by this trend in language, what can we do to stop it?

:bang:

I blame the parents. ;)

[Ski the Swift]

I blame the parents. ;)

Win.

[Cantabile]

I don't see how parents are to blame, except for not stomping on this habit when they see it arise in their children. Teenagers seem the dominant group for usage of these terms, and at that age their parents are no longer their primary agents of socialization: their peers are.

[palimpsest.]

Normally I'm all in favour of the evolution of language, but this leaves a sour taste. "Hey, marginalised group, wider society has co-opted your name to use as an insult, so you either have to rename yourselves or try to proactively get it back. And then we'll bitch about any overly-PC language that is used to replace it." Hear my tiny violin playing for all those poor folk who are being asked to slightly modify their vocabularies.

I really can't decide about all this. I, too, think that the evolution of language is a good thing. Here, it seems it's not so. And yet, the word 'nigger' started out as a neutral world, then became derogatory; if it's turning into something neutral (taking on the meaning of 'friend/mate') again, is that really so bad? :dunno: As kairparavel said, 'retarded' first meant slow/delayed and was only later used to represent a specific group. So, you can understand the new meanings of these words as either further insults to marginalised groups, or as distancing from the initial insult.

In a way, it seems to me that political correctness in this case is just a way of trying to atone for language's (and, of course, society's) old sins.

As for 'gay', which seemingly doesn't fall under the above category, well, while it was not exactly as derogatory as 'queer', it still was used as an insult, and was merely the best of the many names the gay community was called back then. I do believe that people don't mean 'homosexual' when they use it to say 'rubbish', but it does sound very offensive. Again - I simply don't know whether it's right or wrong to use it, but I don't really think it's meant as an insult.

For the record, I don't use any of those words, but I know people who do.

[Week]

Stop acting like a bunch of cocks.

Oh noes, I'm putting down my fellow men by using a derogatory word for our genitalia as an insult. Sorry for being such an asshole.

Egad! I've offended my proud b-hole now. Is there nothing that can be said that would give offense?

We have bigger things to worry about in the world. The furor other this sort of shit is absurd. The anger over the use of these words probably does more to continue said use than evolving culture that began the reuse of the words in the first place.

[Cantabile]

I can't help but notice that no one has commented on the use of "rape" not being used for actual sexual violation, but to express defeat, destruction, and acts involving disparities of power.

Are we all agreed that this is terrible, at least?

[TrueMetis]

I can't help but notice that no one has commented on the use of "rape" not being used for actual sexual violation, but to express defeat, destruction, and acts involving disparities of power.

Are we all agreed that this is terrible, at least?

I don't really care.

[Scion of Valyria]

I still don't see how one can even use "retard" and "stupid" synonymously.

Because retard is more offensive than stupid. It gives the insult a certain weight to it that is not felt with stupid. But that doesn't make it okay. Nor does it make it okay that the speaker doesn't intend to be derogatory, I suppose. But people are still going to use 'em, and its your right to let it be known that your offended by it. Don't think you can change it, though.

Also, "what's wrong with our youth?" The younger generation learned from the older generation. When you were young, Cantabile, I'm sure people still talked the same way. The words might have been different, but it was still the same. My father, and my grandfather, use slang that even to me seems too derogatory, to harsh or racist or insensitive, and that's with a fifty to thirty year age difference.I don't even understand half of it, but my mother always bugs out about it (my grandmother is probably even worse than my grandfather). The youth of today is just as crass and insensitive as the youth of fifty years ago. No cause to blame those damn kids and their music.

ETA: To add, I do use retarded and gay as slang. Sometimes it adds a little something to the sentence. It doesn't bother me a bit. I recognize it bothers others, so I tend to restrict my usage of certain slang in the company of those I'm aware won't appreciate it. Such is the case with rape. If I'm around people who are going to care, I won't use it casually because I don't want to upset them or just because I don't want to listen to their lecture. I don't think you're terrible for using it casually. Just watch out where you use it.

[Balefont]

I don't see how parents are to blame, except for not stomping on this habit when they see it arise in their children. Teenagers seem the dominant group for usage of these terms, and at that age their parents are no longer their primary agents of socialization: their peers are.

Obviously the parents didn't do a good enough job instilling the best lessons. Part of it, too, is the adolescents/young adults are trying to act older than they are - they're trying on new mantles of adulthood (or their perceptions thereof) - they're pushing their limits like 2 year olds do. Every generation does it to some extent or another. The only thing really different this time around is their access to the world and the world's access to them via the internet.

I'm friended with my daughter and several of her friends on Facebook. I monitor, without imposing or breaching her privacy, her interactions with friends. I listen to how they communicate when they think no one is listening* (*again, not by hovering and eavesdropping - simply paying attention here and there and moving along. It's not an exact science and every kid is different. The point is, as a parent, it's up to you to really know who your kids are and their friends. You're right, the peer influence is key, so knowing who your kid's peers are is essential.

Bailey and I have frank discussions about what's going on with her and also her social circles all the time. She has some friends I keep a close eye on and she is well aware I do this and she supports it (so far). I talk to her about warning signs. We try to have her and her friends here as much as possible so we can keep an eye on things and provide healthy, fun ways for them to interact and play which tends to mitigate their inclination to get into mischief.

The point of all this rambling is: We monitor without being intrusive. We communicate and discuss. We teach by example. We help guide and provide the framework for good decision making. We are accepting of mistakes and help her learn from them without making her feel shameful. It all comes down to being an involved parent. So yes, I blame the parents.

[Hereward]

Lack of beatings and the decline of boarding schools.

Next.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

There are plenty of bigger things to worry about. Sometimes it's nice to tackle a relatively simple change, because it just might happen. (Not if people increase usage when objections are raised, of course, or even if they just choose not to change their behaviour. But possibly if people think about the reasoning and agree that the inconvenience of changing their vocabulary is worth upsetting fewer people.)

Words matter.

Intent isn't magical.

Your experiences are different from mine are different from Cantabile's are different from Min's, so just because something doesn't offend you doesn't mean it can't offend anybody. (This especially applies when people say things like 'but I am / have friends who are rape victims who find rape jokes funny!' or 'I use / my black friend uses the n-word all of the time' or 'I'm a woman, and *I* don't think X is sexist!' I'm not going to say you must or even should be offended by such things, just that you don't get to decide for anyone else, either.)

Like Min, I think I'll bow out at this point. These discussions rarely seem to go well, here or elsewhere, and I have other things to put my energy into.

ETA: Cantabile, no, not everyone thinks using 'rape' in that way is unacceptable. I remember starting a thread years ago, asking people to stop using it here, and I forget how long the thread lasted. Not as long as the politics threads, or 'Bakker & Women', but I do remember that there was a lot of arguing. I think it was lost along the way, though, so I can't link you to it.

[Cantabile]

I don't really care.

You don't care that someone is casually using a word that refers to a violent, tragic act of violation? You don't think that this is dulling the severity of rape in our culture?

On an online game I heard someone say: "Let's go rape some niggas!"

How do you feel about sentences like that? That they're okay because the person didn't literally mean sexually violate black people?

I'm asking because that view point is completely alien to me; it's repulsive no matter which way I squint at it.

Your experiences are different from mine are different from Cantabile's are different from Min's, so just because something doesn't offend you doesn't mean it can't offend anybody. (This especially applies when people say things like 'but I am / have friends who are rape victims who find rape jokes funny!' or 'I use / my black friend uses the n-word all of the time' or 'I'm a woman, and *I* don't think X is sexist!' I'm not going to say you must or even should be offended by such things, just that you don't get to decide for anyone else, either.)

This is a very important point. At the very least, if you insist on using these words, do it in the company of those you know won't care. If you have a friend that is okay with you using "rape" casually, then whatever, but don't use those terms generally, as they can greatly affect others.

What I'm not understanding is: if you all acknowledge that these terms are considered hurtful and offensive by many others, why the hell don't you just use a less controversial synonym? There's no justification for saying: "The Kings raped the Lakers!" when what you meant is "defeated."

[TrueMetis]

You don't care that someone is casually using a word that refers to a violent, tragic act of violation? You don't think that this is dulling the severity of rape in our culture?

No I don't care and no I don't think it dulls the severity.

ETA Of course in Canadian law rape isn't actually the word used anyway. It's also very rarely used in media reporting to.