What's Wrong With Our Youth?

[Cantabile]

Oh, well then. Continue on, sir. No hypocrisy here, folks. Move along.

What hypocrisy? Its meaning when used on men is completely different from when used on women.

A man being a bitch = subordinate, weak, etc.

A woman being a bitch = aggressive, unreasonable, mean.

When used on a woman it's not sexist to women, it's simply rude to the individual. When used on a man it's suggesting that women are subordinate and weak, thus sexist.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

And in that case it's comparing her to an animal. So? Further, it's still generally used to control women's "acceptable" behaviour by "punishing" those who don't conform, so it's not like it's harmless or just a neutral descriptor. Look, I'm providing a link about it that's not even from Shakesville.

(In other words, it's coming across a lot like "it's okay when I do it, because I have good reasons, but not when someone else uses it.")

[Cantabile]

And in that case it's comparing her to an animal. So? Further, it's still generally used to control women's "acceptable" behaviour by "punishing" those who don't conform, so it's not like it's harmless or just a neutral descriptor. Look, I'm providing a link about it that's not even from Shakesville.

(In other words, it's coming across a lot like "it's okay when I do it, because I have good reasons, but not when someone else uses it.")

If I have to think the person is a repulsive, horrid, vomit-stain of a human being to use it to refer to them, then comparing them to an animal seems very mild. Which behaviors do you think it's controlling when used for women? My understanding is, as I mentioned, that it means the person is aggressive, unreasonable, mean, rude, etc. All of which I think are unacceptable behaviors regardless of gender.

When used to refer to a man it's not only insinuating that women are weak and subordinate, but that those are unacceptable qualities in a male. Which is certainly trying to control their personality and behaviors. So yes, when used on a male I agree that it's wrong, but if used on a woman to describe negative human behaviors (not simply gender-related) then I see no problem with it.

In the same way I see no issue with a guy being called a "dick"

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Did you actually read the article?

[MercenaryChef]

If I call a woman a bitch, it's usually because I think she's the lovechild of Satan, Stalin, and Hitler, after they engaged in a kinky threesome.

as funny a scenario is that you have described you are going totally against your premise of this thread by ever calling any woman a bitch. if the term 'retard' is the crime of the century in your books than calling a woman a bitch flies in the face of pretty much everything you have said regarding tolerance, equality and the like. you shame yourself. but, you amuse me.

*and i did read the article

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Ha. Thanks, MC, I thought of that as I stepped away from the computer. His own arguments against words like 'gay' or 'retarded' can be used against him here, but this is oh-so-different somehow.

[Cantabile]

Did you actually read the article?

Yes. And its major qualm seems to be that "powerful" and "successful" are included in one's definition of a "bitch," which I simply do not agree with. If that were the case, and calling one's bitch was stating that there's something culturally wrong with successful and powerful women, then I would agree that it's despicable and never use the word again. But I've never heard someone use it like that. If Oprah kicks a starving Ethiopian child in the crotch then people will say, "Oprah is a bitch," but no one is going to call her a bitch simply for being successful.

[MercenaryChef]

Yes. And its major qualm seems to be that "powerful" and "successful" are included in one's definition of a "bitch," which I simply do not agree with. If that were the case, and calling one's bitch was stating that there's something culturally wrong with successful and powerful women, then I would agree that it's despicable and never use the word again. But I've never heard someone use it like that. If Oprah kicks a starving Ethiopian child in the crotch then people will say, "Oprah is a bitch," but no one is going to call her a bitch simply for being successful.

so it is the reason one is using 'bitch' and what it means when they say it? how is that anywhere at all different from every single argument every single person has made against you in this thread regarding 'gay' and 'retarded?' THEY ARE ALL SAYING THE SAME THING!!!

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Except that people do do these things, and quite often. People call Nancy Pelosi a bitch. People call Sarah Palin a bitch. People call all sorts of women, in different parts of the world, "bitches" for doing the same things that men do. (Sort of like calling women "sluts" or "ice queens" to shame them for the amount of sexual activity they have or don't have.)

I get that you don't think about this when you're using the word, but you're contributing to its use. Just like "those kids today" use 'gay' without meaning 'homosexual', just 'bad'. If you mean someone is too agressive, say so. If you mean someone is rude, say that. If you think someone is a rectal haberdasher with a case of the rampaging stupids, say that.

[Cantabile]

so it is the reason one is using 'bitch' and what it means when they say it? how is that anywhere at all different from every single argument every single person has made against you in this thread regarding 'gay' and 'retarded?' THEY ARE ALL SAYING THE SAME THING!!!

No, it is not the same in any way, shape, or form. My problem has been with pejoratives that are also identity groups. "Gypped" from gypsies, "gay" from gay, and the same with "retard" and the others mentioned, because of how I feel this peripherally affects culture's view of those people groups. "Bitch" is not a group of people as far as I'm aware.

Except that people do do these things, and quite often. People call Nancy Pelosi a bitch. People call Sarah Palin a bitch. People call all sorts of women, in different parts of the world, "bitches" for doing the same things that men do. (Sort of like calling women "sluts" or "ice queens" to shame them for the amount of sexual activity they have or don't have.)

I have no experience with people using "bitch" simply to describe when a woman is successful. There are many reasons one might think someone like Sarah Palin warrants the label of "bitch" so why are you assuming that it's simply because she's successful? If her personality was kindness, love, and good will to mankind incarnate, so that the only reason to call her a bitch is her social and financial success, then I'd agree with you, but that's simply not the case.

If I could relate to that usage, I'd share your sentiment 100%. But I don't see my usage as a contribution to "successful woman = bad" or "women who do what men do = bad" since I've never in my life heard "bitch" used to mean that.

[MercenaryChef]

googling 'sarah palin is a bitch' gets me 22 million results, hilary is a bitch get me 1.2 million, oprah is a bitch another 934,000 hits, ex-wife is a bitch 41.7 million results.

and you claim that you have never heard a woman being called a bitch for being successful or not doing what a man wants? dare i ask if you are retarded?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

If you could relate to that usage, you would already have dropped the word, especially as you've so limited your use already. But frankly, it really sounds like you don't want to drop the word, and are clinging on to your justifications despite your previous arguments.

I have no experience with people using "bitch" simply to describe when a woman is successful.

Would that we all lived in your world, but we don't. It is a problem, and unless you explain to anyone who hears you use the word that you are using it to mean aggressive, arrogant, rude, etc -- but only women who are! -- then they have no clue what limitations you're arbitrarily placing on it. All they hear is you calling some woman a bitch.

To add to MC's tally:

Mother Teresa bitch: 149,000

"virgin mary" bitch: 1,370,000 (not all are actually calling the Virgin Mary a bitch directly, but many are. I'm not going through all sites to work out how many.)

"Michelle Obama" bitch: 2,310,000 (including Townhall calling her a bitch in a title and The Political Jungle calling her 'one expensive bitch'.)

[fitheach]

I have discussions at home about the word "gay" being used as an insult. My daughter is often bullied being called "gay" or "homosexual" because she doesn't wear skinny jeans and Uggs but rather Black Ops T-shirts, Grenade jackets, camo hoodie, and black and white Chucks. (This is her outfit today, in fact.)

We talk about how it shouldn't be an insult (we have several gay family members, on both sides, girls and guys a like - it's normal to her and always has been). Then we talk about how rotten it is that people use it as an insult. And then we talk about not using that language ourselves and how to diffuse the insults and stick up for others that are getting bullied as well.

I refuse to raise a shithead.

Your daughter isn't "gay", she's "the shit" (as in cool)! Although, if I've learned anything from South Park (ducks head as trash is thrown at me)- "gay" is is good/positive.

Your definitly not raising a shithead, but a kick ass :thumbsup:...

[KazigluBey]

The millenial generation is exponentially more tolerant of homosexuality than any generation before us, so we reserve the right to use the word "gay" whenever and however we like. Actions speak louder than words.

[Cantabile]

googling 'sarah palin is a bitch' gets me 22 million results, hilary is a bitch get me 1.2 million, oprah is a bitch another 934,000 hits, ex-wife is a bitch 41.7 million results.

and you claim that you have never heard a woman being called a bitch for being successful or not doing what a man wants? dare i ask if you are retarded?

You're providing Google numbers for their name on pages with the word "bitch" as well, not instances of them being called bitches due to being successful women. I have never stated that people do not call women bitches, nor successful women bitches, which is all that you're demonstrating. My position is that just because a successful woman is called a bitch, it is not for the reason that she is successful.

Provide actual examples of people doing it solely because the woman is successful, and the view will have more merit.

If you could relate to that usage, you would already have dropped the word, especially as you've so limited your use already. But frankly, it really sounds like you don't want to drop the word, and are clinging on to your justifications despite your previous arguments.

I'd be more than glad to never use the word again in my life if I had more evidence than generic Google hit numbers that don't even demonstrate a relation between success and the term "bitch," since all of the people mentioned can be viewed as bitches for reasons completely unrelated to their success. Look at some of those Google results that come up, and when they're mentioned as a bitch, see if there are actual criticisms of the person involved that have nothing to do with their success.

Looking at the first page of results for those listings, I see nothing to indicate that it's done based on success.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

What happened to the (paraphrased) "I'd be more than glad to never use the word again in my life because people have told me it offends them?"

I'm still not convinced you're a troll, but I am more and more inclined to believe that -- despite your protestations -- you feel have to be right, both in terms of argument and moral standing. (Having said that, that just means you'll fit in well here, eventually. Maybe.)

[Cantabile]

I just asked five friends from varying geographic regions what the word "bitch" means to them. The answered were:

A woman with a stick up her ass

A girl that is substantially meaner than average

A loathesome female

Rude, spiteful women

A rose is a rose is a rose, and a bitch is a bitch is a bitch.

When I asked if "successful woman" or "woman who takes on a role or position that is traditionally held by men" fits into their definition, or how they've ever heard it used, they said no.

Then I looked up the definition of "bitch"

It often refers to someone (traditionally female) who is belligerent, unreasonable, rudely intrusive or aggressiv

A malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, esp. a woman

If multiple dictionaries, and people from various states and countries, all have no inclusion of 'success' as part of being a bitch, then forgive me if I don't believe it.

[Balefont]

Your daughter isn't "gay", she's "the shit" (as in cool)! Although, if I've learned anything from South Park (ducks head as trash is thrown at me)- "gay" is is good/positive.

Your definitly not raising a shithead, but a kick ass :thumbsup:...

Awww, thanks so much. :love:

Now my 9 year old nephew on the other hand - he's been a project these past couple years. But I refuse to give up! It's not his fault his mother doesn't have any business birthing, let alone raising, kids!

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

What were the age ranges of your friends? Their socioeconomic backgrounds? Races? Genders? (I'm being facetious here - I don't really care what the answers are.)

If you really thought 'bitch' was simply a conglomeration of 'aggressive, rude, and unpleasant', you wouldn't have a problem with using the term for men, because those characteristics are not just female. I still don't understand why you don't follow your own advice and simply state exactly what you're objecting to, but I do see that you're going to cling on to your justification for keeping the word until your face turns blue and your fingernails fall off, so you keep on keeping on. I'll still think you're an ass, but hey, that's not in the dictionary either! :shrug:

[Cantabile]

What happened to the (paraphrased) "I'd be more than glad to never use the word again in my life because people have told me it offends them?"

I'm still not convinced you're a troll, but I am more and more inclined to believe that -- despite your protestations -- you feel have to be right, both in terms of argument and moral standing. (Having said that, that just means you'll fit in well here, eventually. Maybe.)

I already said that I only use it to refer to women I truly loathe, and to them directly, and offending is the point. There's no worry of affecting culture at large through the usage.

I love to be proven wrong, or shown how my actions are unjust, because it allows me to step back and improve myself as a human being. But I'm not going to take someone's word for something like the meaning of an entire word, when every source I can find offers no evidence for that view. I'd rather be wrong than right, but I need to be shown that I am wrong, not just told.