What's Wrong With Our Youth?

[Cantabile]

I think you're short selling this.

I was pretty convinced by people's personal experience in the workplace of women being called bitches for being ambitious and a little more aggressive than women would 'traditionally' be, while the same behavior would be seen as fine for men. Thus the word is part of a gender double standard that is hurtful to women.

EDIT: My own hypocrisy: earlier in the thread I wagged my finger at dogpiling, and now I'm doing it again. Oops.

I understand that viewpoint, but I just don't see it being used simply because the woman is aggressive or strong-willed. And let's not forget that the mind sees what it wants to see; we distort reality to fit into our expectations of how reality should unfold according to us. I.E. if a woman thinks a man is going to think of her as a bitch for her being more aggressive and strong-willed, then when a man does criticize her by calling her a bitch she can easily view it as due to her aggressiveness, when in reality it might because of many other personality defects or actions which have absolutely nothing to do with gender roles.

I don't have much experience with the average work environment, since being a violinist and teacher is pretty much the extent of my careers, so if I'm completely wrong then I'd appreciate a dogpiling of women in the work place to convince me.

Speaking of dogpiling, don't worry about it :P But nobody be surprised please if I don't reply to every single post. Everytime I hit "add reply" there's multiple new ones, and I am feeling pretty overwhelmed trying to respond to everybody.

[Balefont]

You're entirely right. And if I see enough anecdotes from a wide enough range of people and locations, to support that view, then you can bet your buttocks that I'll assent that it can be viewed as offensive to women, and declare it not fit for popular use. I might seem stubborn, but like I said: If shown that I'm wrong, or at least enough evidence to show that it's a strong possibility that I could be wrong, I'll gladly accept defeat.

I must've just missed "bitch" under the gender options for all that paperwork over the years :P

As the definitions said, "bitch" is primarily used to describe women, but a term to describe women does not = women. It'd be the equivalent of saying that using "cock" is offensive to men simply because "cock" refers to men, which is a gender, and thus the usage is harmful to the gender. Doesn't work that way.

And yes, you're correct, I meant disorder, not disease, that's my mistake.

The use of cock would be considered equally as bad as bitch - or it should. But it doesn't because it's masculine and masculine = better.

[Balefont]

I understand that viewpoint, but I just don't see it being used simply because the woman is aggressive or strong-willed.

But it IS, even if YOU don't see it. :tantrum:

[Cantabile]

Sorry, I was unclear...just adding to the dogpile because the arguments being made here (and elsewhere) by Cantible are just absurd. Totally in agreement with you.

Right, so my anecdotal evidence is unacceptable, but that of others isn't? Speaking of double standards...

I have provided two definitions by other sources so far. No one arguing that "bitch = success" has done such, so if anyone's pulling nonsense out of their ass, it isn't me.

The use of cock would be considered equally as bad as bitch - or it should. But it doesn't because it's masculine and masculine = better.

What does "cock" mean to you, and why do you think it's bad?

[Cantabile]

But it IS, even if YOU don't see it. :tantrum:

Okay, I accept that possibility. But can you understand that it might be a little difficult for me to buy that a word has a completely different meaning than I've heard it used through exposure to it in thousands of scenarios throughout multiple decades?

I have trouble believing that it's correlation to success wouldn't come up at least once in all of that time.

[Balefont]

What does "cock" mean to you, and why do you think it's bad?

<sigh> Read my post again because you obviously didn't get my meaning.

[aimlessgun]

What I was trying to convey earlier is this: your anecdotes don't matter Canta. If you accept the anecdotes of others are true, then bitch is used as a tool of oppression against women somewhere, even if it isn't in your sphere of experience. That in turn makes the word unacceptable.

To disagree is basically to say that their anecdotes are false. (seemingly due to a problem of perspective or misinterpretation of what they saw in their lives?)

[Week]

Right, so my anecdotal evidence is unacceptable, but that of others isn't? Speaking of double standards...

So your anecdotal evidence is acceptable, but that of others isn't? Speaking of double standards...

I have provided two definitions by other sources so far. No one arguing that "bitch = success" has done such, so if anyone's pulling nonsense out of their ass, it isn't me.

Bitch!=success. Bitch = any strong, self confident woman quite often. I've heard the bitch thrown around re: female VPs and up in the company when the behavior would have been described as stern, smart CYA, or simply on the opposite side of a discussion of whomever was saying the term.

[Cantabile]

What I was trying to convey earlier is this: your anecdotes don't matter Canta. If you accept the anecdotes of others are true, then bitch is used as a tool of oppression against women somewhere, even if it isn't in your sphere of experience. That in turn makes the word unacceptable.

To disagree is basically to say that their anecdotes are false.

I am not saying that they are liars, and am not saying that it can't be used as a tool of oppression. If people have anecdotes, then it can in at least some circumstances. What I'm uncertain about is if those anecdotes are common enough, and the oppression widespread enough of an issue, to merit modifying one's vocabulary.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

And let's not forget that the mind sees what it wants to see; we distort reality to fit into our expectations of how reality should unfold according to us.

That doesn't apply just to your opponents. Dictionary definitions don't trump life, and how we read people and are read by people, and how the same actions are described starts very, very early. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1130189 I don't understand why it's such a reach to believe that there's a mismatched set of standards as to how men and women are supposed to behave.

(PS if you only use 'bitch' to refer to women, it's still gendered. Just like it's only gendered in it's "pure" form, to refer to animals, esp. canines. Saying that the fact that you only use it on one gender makes it a non-gendered insult doesn't really wash, IMO.)

[Balefont]

Okay, I accept that possibility. But can you understand that it might be a little difficult for me to buy that a word has a completely different meaning than I've heard it used through exposure to it in thousands of scenarios throughout multiple decades?

Yes, I can totally believe it because you are not a woman in a man's world.

[Cantabile]

I'm going to step away from this discussion for now. You've all given me something to think about, and questioned my view of the word up until today. I'm going to do some research on the topic, and if it turns out that I am indeed wrong, which seems very possible, then I will gladly apologize for wasting all your time arguing this point.

[Balefont]

It might be a bit heavy handed, but this blog can be a real eye opener.

[Cantabile]

It might be a bit heavy handed, but this blog can be a real eye opener.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out tonight. I've taken multiple classes on gender studies, but while usage of terms such as "slut" were discussed ad naseum, I can't remember much discussion on "bitch," which might account for my ignorance on the subject.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Yup. Shakespeare's Sister/ Shakesville, Finally Feminism, Feminism 101, there are a bunch of good, grounding resources out there. (Please also don't confuse sites and people who reclaim the word with those using it solely as an insult.) However, what's your limit going to be? We know it's not one or two offended women, so.. five? ten? one hundred? Or will it be more like: 75% of the women you interact with at least three times a week and also every second Sunday?

[Cantabile]

Yup. Shakespeare's Sister/ Shakesville, Finally Feminism, Feminism 101, there are a bunch of good, grounding resources out there. (Please also don't confuse sites and people who reclaim the word with those using it solely as an insult.) However, what's your limit going to be? We know it's not one or two offended women, so.. five? ten? one hundred? Or will it be more like: 75% of the women you interact with at least three times a week and also every second Sunday?

I'll check those resources out too. As for what will deliver the final nail in the coffin for my view of the word, I honestly don't know. You all have done a good job making me think I'm incorrect about it, so reading a few well-written articles, or studies on the issue, will likely convince me. I'll try to get a hold of a few sociologist acquaintances as well, as I still have occasional contact with one of the teachers on gender studies.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

It might be a bit heavy handed, but this blog can be a real eye opener.

Thank you Bale. This is one I haven't seen before, and lost 2 hours that I didn't necessarily have time to lose!

And Cantabile, I too am in the Fine Arts. Don't tell me that if a female conductor came into your orchestra (if a woman had the audacity to be a conductor, as less than 10% are) that her "exacting standards" would not be characterized in some way different than a male conductor by members of said orchestra - and certainly in terms that were negatively gender based. I don't know anyone in the fine arts (on a world wide scale) who has not experienced or witnessed it.

You are an intelligent man, so I must admit, I find it very difficult to believe that you are not just waving a red flag in front of the bull for kicks. :fencing:

[Shryke]

I think the "Bitch" discussion is kinda ridiculous because it consistently puts the cart before the horse.

"Bitch" isn't used to describe a successful independent women. It's, with women anyway, used to describe a set of behaviors. Generally, aggressive, overbearing, overly-blunt, quick to anger, etc.

It's just that our culture does tend to reward many of these kinds of behaviors with success. A man would be called an asshole or a dick or the like for that kind of stuff.

But that doesn't mean when you call a man an asshole or a dick, you are saying you hate him for being successful or something. You are talking about his behavior and how you hate it. Same as when you call a women a "bitch".

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Someone else might have the energy to take you on, but I don't. We just went over this for Cantabile, and the only reason he got as much effort from me as he did is because he hasn't been involved in these discussions directly before, or not as far as I'm aware.

Re-read (or read) the salient posts in this thread again. Re-read (or read) the resources referenced, including the relevant sections of the various basic feminist websites. Re-read (or read) the previous threads where we've gone over this stuff before. Wait for someone to address you directly. Rinse and repeat.

[Shryke]

I can only assume that in your race to pawn off a response on other people, you didn't bother to actually read what I wrote.