What's Wrong With Our Youth?

[Balefont]

If multiple dictionaries, and people from various states and countries, all have no inclusion of 'success' as part of being a bitch, then forgive me if I don't believe it.

I won't forgive you because you have your head too far up your ass to know that many women in the workplace are called bitches. Not necessarily for being successful -as the word should be defined - but if they are the slightest bit ambitious / aggressive like their male counterparts, they are labeled and called bitches whereas the men are called ambitious / leaders / go-getters, etc. It happens in many competitive work environments.

You can't say using "gay", "nigger", "retarded" etc. is always inappropriate but then justify ever using the term bitch as appropriate. Darko is right, it's completely hypocritical.

Edit: Eefa, no don't you go bringing donkeys into this. They have feelings, too.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

So you say the word only in isolated situations? What, a cone of silence or something?

You want to be proven wrong by dictating the terms of the 'evidence' you'll accept. Anything that conflicts with your worldview, you're dismissing. That's not listening. (I know, I know, don't leave your mind so open your brains fall out, but come on.) The whole point is that people don't realise they're using 'bitch' to put down women for the same behaviours that are okay for men. People hold all kinds of double standards without ever realising it. That doesn't mean they're not there, they don't affect other people, or that everyone has to shut up just because "I have a good reason, man!"

Good point, Bale. I'll take it back. The stubbornness still applies, though. :lol:

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I don't think bitch means a woman who is successful and powerful. Sure, it's often used to refer to women who are successful and powerful, but the same would be true if you replaced "bitch" with "douchebag" and "woman" with "man". Qualities that can lead to success in this life,(e.g. aggression, selfishness) are the same qualities that lead to the labels "bitch" "douchebag" or "asshole".

[aimlessgun]

I'm losing track of the discussion here.

The bitch gambit-

Intent: to equate the words 'bitch' and 'gay' and prove Cantabile a hypocrite.

Requirements- Must show that:

-'Gay' is a word that can and is sometimes used as a tool to demean an oppressed group.

-Further, that the use of the word 'gay' when used with different intent, still contributes to said oppression.

-'Bitch' is a word is sometimes used as a tool to demean an oppressed group.

-Further, that the use of 'bitch' when used with different intent, still contributes to said oppression.

Do I have this right?

[Balefont]

You want to be proven wrong by dictating the terms of the 'evidence' you'll accept. Anything that conflicts with your worldview, you're dismissing.

Yeah, that's pretty much his MO around here. It's grating to say the least.

[Cantabile]

What were the age ranges of your friends? Their socioeconomic backgrounds? Races? Genders? (I'm being facetious here - I don't really care what the answers are.)

If you really thought 'bitch' was simply a conglomeration of 'aggressive, rude, and unpleasant', you wouldn't have a problem with using the term for men, because those characteristics are not just female. I still don't understand why you don't follow your own advice and simply state exactly what you're objecting to, but I do see that you're going to cling on to your justification for keeping the word until your face turns blue and your fingernails fall off, so you keep on keeping on. I'll still think you're an ass, but hey, that's not in the dictionary either! :shrug:

Ages: 26, 33, 59, 61, 40

Races: Two caucasian, one black, one pacific islander, one Asian

Genders: Three female, two male

I should note that two of them, when I asked if they had heard of the success thing, said that was incredibly stupid, and had never heard anyone use it like that in their life. So obviously I'm not the only one who has no experience with this.

And those characteristics are not the definition of "bitch" when used for a man. There are entries and explanations for how the meaning differs by gender, and I noted that in previous posts.

I agree with you that one should simply state the actual characteristic one has a problem with: If someone's being spiteful, call them spiteful rather than just "bitch" as a criticism, but "bitch" has more emotional impact than "spiteful" and the other characteristics, so I see how its usage is justified in certain circumstances.

[Balefont]

Ages: 26, 33, 59, 61, 40

Races: Two caucasian, one black, one pacific islander, one Asian

Genders: Three female, two male

I should note that two of them, when I asked if they had heard of the success thing, said that was incredibly stupid, and had never heard anyone use it like that in their life. So obviously I'm not the only one who has no experience with this.

And those characteristics are not the definition of "bitch" when used for a man. There are entries and explanations for how the meaning differs by gender, and I noted that in previous posts.

I agree with you that one should simply state the actual characteristic one has a problem with: If someone's being spiteful, call them spiteful rather than just "bitch" as a criticism, but "bitch" has more emotional impact than "spiteful" and the other characteristics, so I see how its usage is justified in certain circumstances.

You can't say using "gay", "nigger", "retarded" etc. is always inappropriate but then justify ever using the term bitch as appropriate. Darko is right, it's completely hypocritical.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I don't think bitch means a woman who is successful and powerful. Sure, it's often used to refer to women who are successful and powerful, but the same would be true if you replaced "bitch" with "douchebag" and "woman" with "man". Qualities that can lead to success in this life,(e.g. aggression, selfishness) are the same qualities that lead to the labels "bitch" "douchebag" or "asshole".

Right, but what I wasn't making clear enough before, despite the 'slut' analogy, is that the same behaviours will get a woman labelled a 'bitch' that won't get a man labelled a 'douchebag'. There are all kinds of perceptions that we carry around from a very young age that affect us all through our lives.

(This is admittedly hearsay/anecdata/whatever: I'm still looking for a study I saw how girls were seen as 'unfairly talkative' in class if they contributed more than -- if I recall correctly -- something like 40% of the discussion time. Girls are quiet, boys are talkative. Girls are passive, boys are active. Girls are followers, boys are leaders. Yet how do we know that's innate if we're discouraging equal participation and/or artificially constructing these 'ideals' for kids based on gender? The same applies to the 'bitch' distinction and where most people draw the line. Because women 'shouldn't' act such-and-such ways, they are seen as aggressive sooner than men are, and so on.)

[Cantabile]

You can't say using "gay", "nigger", "retarded" etc. is always inappropriate but then justify ever using the term bitch as appropriate. Darko is right, it's completely hypocritical.

How is it hypocritcal? As I said to him: the problem with retarded, gay, nigger, etc. are that they are pejoratives that are also people groups, which is where my complaint stems. That has been my argument all along: that using the labels for identities as pejoratives adversely affects members of those identities. "Bitch" is not a sexual orientation. "Bitch" is not a race. "Bitch" is not an ethnicity. "Bitch" is not a disease. It's not the identity of a people group in any shape or form, so how can it possibly be hypocritical of me when my argument is about people groups?

[TrueMetis]

This thread just got a whole lot more entertaining. :smoking:

[aimlessgun]

I'm losing track of the discussion here.

The bitch gambit-

Intent: to equate the words 'bitch' and 'gay' and prove Cantabile a hypocrite.

Requirements- Must show that:

-'Gay' is a word that can and is sometimes used as a tool to demean an oppressed group.

-Further, that the use of the word 'gay' when used with different intent, still contributes to said oppression.

-'Bitch' is a word is sometimes used as a tool to demean an oppressed group.

-Further, that the use of 'bitch' when used with different intent, still contributes to said oppression.

Do I have this right?

Alright I think I figured this out.

Cantabile is arguing the 3rd point, namely that he does not view the word 'bitch' as a tool of oppression. Others have provided anecdotal evidence from their lives saying that it, indeed, is. Cantabile has provided counter-anecdotes.

However, earlier in the thread, he used the justification that if even a few people of the oppressed group (gays in this case) were caused suffering and offense by the word, then that was good enough to sink it. So even if Cantabile's friends do not view the 'bitch' that way, it doesn't matter, since by the anecdotal evidence of others, the word is being used as an oppressive tool somewhere, and thus should be unacceptable.

[Balefont]

How is it hypocritcal? As I said to him: the problem with retarded, gay, nigger, etc. are that they are pejoratives that are also people groups, which is where my complaint stems. That has been my argument all along: that using the labels for identities as pejoratives adversely affects members of those identities. "Bitch" is not a sexual orientation. "Bitch" is not a race. "Bitch" is not an ethnicity. "Bitch" is not a disease. It's not the identity of a people group in any shape or form, so how can it possibly be hypocritical of me when my argument is about people groups?

BITCH IS A FUCKING GENDER!

ETA: And having a mental disability =/= having a disease.

[Cantabile]

Right, but what I wasn't making clear enough before, despite the 'slut' analogy, is that the same behaviours will get a woman labelled a 'bitch' that won't get a man labelled a 'douchebag'. There are all kinds of perceptions that we carry around from a very young age that affect us all through our lives.

And I agree completely with the usage of "slut" and all the other double standards. I've been a feminist for longer than many of the board members here have been alive, but I simply am not seeing how "bitch" is damaging the social position of women. I'll lay it out like this:

Evidence in this thread for "bitch" not having to do with success:

- My non-scientific sample of five random people across the board of ages, ethnicities, and genders

- multiple definitions demonstrating that "successful" or "crossing gender roles and social positions" are not included in any recognized or common definition.

- Another member saying he doesn't view it that way

Evidence in this thread for "bitch" having to do with success:

- A few people saying that's how they view the meaning, but have been unable to come up with examples, sources, or more official definitions than their own personal opinions.

No contest, is it?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Ages: 26, 33, 59, 61, 40

Races: Two caucasian, one black, one pacific islander, one Asian

Genders: Three female, two male

I should note that two of them, when I asked if they had heard of the success thing, said that was incredibly stupid, and had never heard anyone use it like that in their life. So obviously I'm not the only one who has no experience with this.

And those characteristics are not the definition of "bitch" when used for a man. There are entries and explanations for how the meaning differs by gender, and I noted that in previous posts.

I agree with you that one should simply state the actual characteristic one has a problem with: If someone's being spiteful, call them spiteful rather than just "bitch" as a criticism, but "bitch" has more emotional impact than "spiteful" and the other characteristics, so I see how its usage is justified in certain circumstances.

Fuckhead.

Asshole.

Douchecanoe.

Petulant child.

Self-involved twit.

Pillock.

Drama llama.

Stain on humanity.

Lots of invective options. You use 'bitch' because you want to, and that's your prerogative. Just don't expect people to nod and say 'oh, yeah, totally justified.'

PS My life, and the life of anyone else affected by the word, isn't a fucking contest, or an idle attempt to score one against you.

aimlessgun - that last one was pretty much it, as I see it.

[Week]

I'm still not convinced you're a troll, but I am more and more inclined to believe that -- despite your protestations -- you feel have to be right, both in terms of argument and moral standing. (Having said that, that just means you'll fit in well here, eventually. Maybe.)

You can't be wrong if you have random quotes/sources that you pull out of your ass that agree with you. You just can't be...right?

[aimlessgun]

Evidence in this thread for "bitch" having to do with success:

- A few people saying that's how they view the meaning, but have been unable to come up with examples, sources, or more official definitions than their own personal opinions.

I think you're short selling this.

I was pretty convinced by people's personal experience in the workplace of women being called bitches for being ambitious and a little more aggressive than women would 'traditionally' be, while the same behavior would be seen as fine for men. Thus the word is part of a gender double standard that is hurtful to women.

EDIT: My own hypocrisy: earlier in the thread I wagged my finger at dogpiling, and now I'm doing it again. Oops.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

You can't be wrong if you have random quotes/sources that you pull out of your ass that agree with you. You just can't be...right?

Huh? That's not what I intended, so if that's what you got out of it, I need to be clearer. However, it would help if you could help me see how you got that from my statement.

[Cantabile]

However, earlier in the thread, he used the justification that if even a few people of the oppressed group (gays in this case) were caused suffering and offense by the word, then that was good enough to sink it. So even if Cantabile's friends do not view the 'bitch' that way, it doesn't matter, since by the anecdotal evidence of others, the word is being used as an oppressive tool somewhere, and thus should be unacceptable.

You're entirely right. And if I see enough anecdotes from a wide enough range of people and locations, to support that view, then you can bet your buttocks that I'll assent that it can be viewed as offensive to women, and declare it not fit for popular use. I might seem stubborn, but like I said: If shown that I'm wrong, or at least enough evidence to show that it's a strong possibility that I could be wrong, I'll gladly accept defeat.

BITCH IS A FUCKING GENDER!

ETA: And having a mental disability =/= having a disease.

I must've just missed "bitch" under the gender options for all that paperwork over the years :P

As the definitions said, "bitch" is primarily used to describe women, but a term to describe women does not = women. It'd be the equivalent of saying that using "cock" is offensive to men simply because "cock" refers to men, which is a gender, and thus the usage is harmful to the gender. Doesn't work that way.

And yes, you're correct, I meant disorder, not disease, that's my mistake.

[Week]

Huh? That's not what I intended, so if that's what you got out of it, I need to be clearer. However, it would help if you could help me see how you got that from my statement.

Sorry, I was unclear...just adding to the dogpile because the arguments being made here (and elsewhere) by Cantible are just absurd. Totally in agreement with you.

[Balefont]

I'm going with Shake's:

Andi Zeisler, co-founder (with Lisa Jervis) of Bitch magazine, wrote an interesting piece for the WaPo this weekend on "the B-word," its cultural connotation, and its reclamation:

Bitch is a word we use culturally to describe any woman who is strong, angry, uncompromising and, often, uninterested in pleasing men

. We use the term for a woman on the street who doesn't respond to men's catcalls or smile when they say, "Cheer up, baby, it can't be that bad." We use it for the woman who has a better job than a man and doesn't apologize for it. We use it for the woman who doesn't back down from a confrontation.

So let's not be disingenuous. Is it a bad word? Of course it is. As a culture, we've done everything possible to make sure of that, starting with a constantly perpetuated mindset that deems powerful women to be scary, angry and, of course, unfeminine -- and sees uncompromising speech by women as anathema to a tidy, well-run world.

…[

Bitch

magazine is] not about hating men but about elevating women. But too many people don't see the difference. And, at least in part, that's why the B-word is still such a problematic term.