Shoved Down Your Throat

[Old Nan]

What is shown in PoN are women in a very sexist and oppressive society and from what it tells me, they turn into cows who have to have someone tell them they are being oppressed to see it. This, I disagree with.

Well, it seems to have borne out fairly well in history if we're able to count the feminists of the 18th century on one hand. It's a common and fairly well-understood phenomenon: truly oppressed people do not actually care that much. It's only when they get a taste of power that they begin to yearn for more. And that's true for women, men, children, other mammals...

Me, I see a lot of myself, intellectually, in Serwe's vacuous idiocy. And I'd probably react in a 'Mills-and-Boone' way myself if someone like Kellhus were to come along and start manipulating me. Wouldn't you?

[Cantabile]

My awareness of feminism and related problems didn't come from an English-speaking culture.

Either way, unless it came from a sample of every culture and time period, then it can hardly be considered support of a universal experience for a "feminist awakening." In a post above it's said that a "feminist awakening" is a gradual process of awareness towards oppression, but that is the complete opposite of my personal experience. A single conversation with a feminist is what made me into one; it was a singular awakening to something I had been ignorant of until that point. No gradual easing into it, just BAM within an hour I became a feminist.

And as far as typical experiences, what Raidne said. And note that Esme is almost completely passive in her own "awakening". She has to be prompted by Kellhus on almost every mental connection. Even when she understands what he's saying, her focus is on how wonderful Kellhus is. (She trailed in sudden understanding. Her skin pimpled. Once again she sat in shadow, and Kellhus hoarded the failing sun, looking for all the world like a bronze idol. The sun always seemed to relinquish him last...) Esme's understanding of her own worth is always connected to being chosen by Kellhus. That's not feminism.

This applies to every character in the novels except for Cnaiur and Conphas; everyone else worships Kellhus as the greatest thing since Mickey Mouse pancakes. If Bakker wrote the situation any differently, than it would affect his portrayal and characterization of Kellhus.

[Galactus]

This applies to every character in the novels except for Cnaiur and Conphas; everyone else worships Kellhus as the greatest thing since Mickey Mouse pancakes. If Bakker wrote the situation any differently, than it would affect his portrayal and characterization of Kellhus.

And here's one of the big problems with writing people of great intelligence: It's hard. And Kellhus isn't really convincing at that. he's rather trite in fact.

So it comes across as if everyone else is really stupid rather than that Kellhus is inteligent, and then Bakker tries to tell us that the other characters are really smart...

[Mjolnir]

Diving into the Bakker debate for the first time. I know not whether I am a brave man, or only a mad fool...

I'd say I pretty much agree with those who find Bakker's approach to being anti-misogynist -- showing the women of Earwa as rape victims and abuse objects over and over and over -- heavy-handed and a little counterproductive. I buy presenting Serwe as an unexceptional, incurious, kind of vacuous abuse victim to establish that the vast majority of Earwa's population is not special and has it bloody awful in theory but find it doesn't work for me very well when I try to map it on to what I remember of the books [and I haven't read 'em in a while so I know I'm forgetting a bunch.]

There's only one real flash of initiative and character I remember the story getting out of Serwe: When she's enslaved as a concubine in that great house, before shit goes south for her and she meets Kellhus -- sorry, I don't remember the family's name. She's serving as a means of arousal for the master of the house, who can't get it on with his wife because she's repulsive to him or whatever, and once he's aroused he's supposed to switch over to his wife so she's the one who gets pregnant. But Serwe urges him on, because she thinks it'll be to her advantage if she can end up carrying his bastard. That's initiative, that's character, that's something I can sympathize with. It's not admirable. It's not particularly smart. But it's the act of a woman who wants to eat tomorrow and really doesn't care what she has to do to stay alive in a system she can't change.

But it doesn't go anywhere. I'd like this as the beginning of the revelation of a character, but it's the beginning and the end as well. She's like a sexually driven but also sexually passive hamster; the story loses sight, for me, of why Serwe makes herself a sexual object [she's got no goddamn choice, and she wants to survive] in favour of just showing her as that sexual object. Over and over and again.

Serwe's passivity in the face of the world in general and Kellhus in particular, and Esme's passive role in her feminist awakening others have covered so well [to be fair based on my memory of the story arc Esme's character is an intriguing look at what a woman with no choices in a setting like this might end up like, until she meets Kellhus -- then her character's fucked] do, to wrench my post back around to the point, begin to suggest a trend being shoved down my throat: The good women of Earwa are the ones we pity in their abused condition.

Contrast them with the story's women who don't just enjoy sex in a passive way, or when it is forced upon them, but pursue it, demand it: The Empress demands sex [we'll leave the incest out of it for now, just for simplicity], and she is a monstrous heredin and a tentacled horror sent by the enemies of all mankind to sow discord and lamentation. More recently, Satma in TJE has that rather creepy parasitic sex scene, a scene in which the mystical monstrous feminine, deep in their dark secret place beneath the earth, demand sex and have agency in a sexual act ... and suck the youth out of a dude. [i'm willing to hold off on judging this one, since the full implications of what exactly went down here won't be known until TWLW, but it doesn't seem at first glance to buck the trend of active sexual women being portrayed as monsters.] Only two or three women on each side of the trend, I grant you. Oh, that's because that's all the women there are.

And this is often the first thing we learn about these women: their sexuality, and what role they fulfill in Earwa's dude-centric sexual matrix, ends up, for me, being what is shoved down my throat, rather than the deeply considered exploration of the evils of misogynism which I'm sure is the intention. It seems almost reflexive: There's a new female character in one of the dreams in TJE, the Anasurimbur queen, name starts with S. Now, I'm sure there are reasons for what's going on with her and that these will be revealed in their genius in due course; what I'm tracking here is a first impression, what the story feels the need to tell us about this woman before anything else. The only thing we know about her as of TJE is that she's adulterous with Cesuatha, that she is "beautiful and wanton".

This is an old saw in Bakker threads, I know, and this isn't even a Bakker thread, but there is no female character in Bakker who is not defined by her sexual role: the prostitute she is, the prostitute she was, the freaky sexual dominator. Yes, I think Esme and Memara are great characters with roles beyond their sex lives, but A: they're alone, I am not even exaggerating, there is noone else. And B: even they are pulled back to it. Hell, Memara's plot arc begins with her having sex with Achamian out of a blue sky. We're never allowed to forget that ... I was going to say we're never allowed to forget their sexuality but there'd be nothing wrong with that. We're never allowed to forget that their sexuality defines them: defines their role in the world and the story.

[Guest Raidne]

Cantabile, hon, you're still waiting for your feminist awakening.

[Cantabile]

Cantabile, hon, you're still waiting for your feminist awakening.

I could just as easily say, "Raidne, hon, you're still waiting for your feminist awakening."

Unnecessary condescension, and as silly as one Christian telling another that they are still waiting to "find Jesus" since they personally came to a gradual awakening towards his existence, whereas the other Christian "found him" after attending a church mass.

[Nerdanel]

I come back after a while only to see that this thread has ballooned in size and turned into yet another Bakker and Women thread...

I'm not one of the haters. Here are my comments on the prominent female characters:

It's not obvious from the start, but Istriya died before the start of PoN. We can infer that she was a very formidable and intelligent, if amoral, woman when she was alive. Among her accomplishments was shutting down the king's harem and making herself the sole wife. Her male replacement isn't nearly as competent. In TDTCB Xerius thinks several times that his mother is going senile, not knowing that it's not her anymore.

Serwë is admittedly stupid. Though, It would break suspension of disbelief for all the important women to be geniuses. I see Serwë as a tragic character, entirely too trusting and transparent, doomed by her inability to play the game with any degree of competency. This makes her a tool of others and eventually leads into her death. Mentally she is the opposite of Istriya, but neither is exactly a good rolemodel. Like Istriya, she also eventually gets replaced by a male skin-spy, a fact with intriguing thematic implications.

Esmenet is in between. She both thinks and feels. In a book where the conflict of intellect and emotion is a prominent theme, she avoids the extremes of Istriya and Serwë, Dûnyain and Inchoroi. Esmenet's intelligence shows through in many small ways throughout the books, especially when she later on becomes Kellhus's wife/spymaster and takes well to her new role. Her final choice in PON is between the different aspects of her personality. She chooses intellect over emotion (exactly unlike a romance novel heroine would have done) and ends up as the second most powerful person in the Three Seas.

Also, it's important to be aware that PoN is only one third of the story. Already in The Aspect-Emperor the female characters are much less defined by their sexuality. For example, Theliopa might well be a virgin for all we know, but we don't really know.

[Inkdaub]

I think my opinion on the message issue is pretty pretty mundane. It bothers me if it isn't done well. If I feel the message is taking me out of the story then odds are the story needs some work.

Regarding Kellhus and Esme, I'm not sure Esme is intended to be genuinely intelligent. It seems more that she is supposed to think Kellhus thinks she is intelligent. Maybe not. I'm not a fan of the books and didn't retain much from them.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

We get it from Kellhus' POV that he thinks her very intelligent for a non-Dunyain. Kellhus may have many faults, but being prone to self-deception in everyday matters is definitely not one of them.

[Grack21]

Well, I finally picked up the first book. When I'll get it to is another matter :P

I was thinking of this thread as I was (finally) reading A Canticle for Liebowitz last week. It's got a VERY blatant anti nuclear war, chruch vs state message, yet I think despite that it never came off as particular preachy, until the end, with the whole

extremely radiated people euthanasia

at the end, What are everyone else opinions on that one?

[Galactus]

We get it from Kellhus' POV that he thinks her very intelligent for a non-Dunyain. Kellhus may have many faults, but being prone to self-deception in everyday matters is definitely not one of them.

To be fair, how would we know if he was?

[Guest Raids 2.0]

I could just as easily say, "Raidne, hon, you're still waiting for your feminist awakening."

No, you couldn't.

You started a thread on the offensiveness of the word "retard" and, in the same thread, defended the use of the word "bitch" as something not at all related. And then, which is ironic considering the argument you're making here, you went and asked a female for her opinion to help you decide what to think.

So take my word for it: you're still waiting.

[Lord O' Bones]

So take my word for it: you're still waiting.

And that's ok, man. I'm still waiting truly. Because I still have to think about it. Which means it hasn't internalized yet.

A few hours ago, I said to a female co-worker "Yeah, I decided to not be such a whiny baby about that anymore." But what I thought was "Yeah, I decided to not be such a whiny bitch <microsecond pause> correction baby about that anymore."

It takes time. Sometimes an embarrassing event. Like when I last mentioned how gay (uncool) something was. On a road trip. With my lesbian sister. The next two seconds of silence was ear-shattering to me until she continued the conversation as if nothing had happened. And I still had to think about not saying it rather than instinctively not saying it for a few years.

Progress: We has it. Not everyone does.

[MinDonner]

^This is a good post. And true even for hardcore feminazis such as myself. Getting out of those ingrained mindsets/speech patterns takes work.

[Lyanna Stark]

^This is a good post. And true even for hardcore feminazis such as myself. Getting out of those ingrained mindsets/speech patterns takes work.

Seconded. This is the day for feminist endorsement of LoB apparently. :P

[Lord O' Bones]

Eventually, this will allow me to sex more of you up.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eventually, this will allow me to sex more of you up.

You know after having been accused of mixing up Salma Hayek and Margaret Thatcher, I think I may have disqualified myself from ever being sexed up. :lol:

[Lord O' Bones]

You know after having been accused of mixing up Salma Hayek and Margaret Thatcher, I think I may have disqualified myself from ever being sexed up. :lol:

You what the what!?

Off the list.

Seriously though, this exchange (and that I took that milisecond again to verify in my head who I was responding to) has inspired one of my rare potentially useful thoughts: If the mods think it's prudent to have a fl00b specific FAQ, maybe one of the things mentioned could be something like "If a boarder made a post that was possibly offensive in a non-HBO related thread and their join date is older than 2011, wait a few posts before getting angry about it; you're probably upset over nothing."

[Eponine]

Well, I finally picked up the first book. When I'll get it to is another matter :P

I was thinking of this thread as I was (finally) reading A Canticle for Liebowitz last week. It's got a VERY blatant anti nuclear war, chruch vs state message, yet I think despite that it never came off as particular preachy, until the end, with the whole

extremely radiated people euthanasia

at the end, What are everyone else opinions on that one?

I regarded it as more a fable than a novel. It worked for me since the book was fairly short and the prose was fairly snappy. However, I do think there was still room for ambiguity on some of the actions and motives of the church (even the life of the author reflects that).

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Seconded. This is the day for feminist endorsement of LoB apparently. :P

Let me add mine, too. Gotta admit that it made me feel a little :love:.

(Mind you, if Cantabile sees the light just because it's a man explaining it to him -- disregarding genuine differences in approach, that is -- I will have to laugh.)