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Fantasy economies


Alytha

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Nynaeve specifically thinks back to time that are essentially famine at least once that I remember, so Emond's Field isn't nearly as cozy as it seems at first. I think this might have been in the second book. It was when she was still hung up on Moiraine and being all Two Riversish

And I think everyone means Bran al'Vere, not Gill, right?

Trollocs really disturbed me logistically until we learned agriculture goes on in the Blight. We aren't told how much but it was at least shown as possible.

The Wheel of Time may not make much sense but I think it does a better job than a good number of them.

I'm still trying to make some sort of sense of Eragon's economy and why they need generals for their armies (okay the last is a personal nitpick... I honestly think the Yeard's Naked Ghost battle-plan beat some of the stuff of Paolini's I unfortunately read).

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Isn't the Yeard the man who has million-man armies wandering around his landscape? Suck that, logistics!

Well, i mean, if the empire was big enough, and the logistics officer blessed with the gift of the gods, it might be possible.

I mean, remember, no fantasy world ever faces shortages of natural resources save when it is required as a plot point.

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On ASOIAF winters, they haven't had one that lasted ten years since the legendary "long night." Remember Tyrion tells Mormont that he's seen several winters (I forget exactly how many)--and Tyrion's only 25 and the last 10 years of his life have been in the summer. He also comments that the winter he was born in was exceptionally long and harsh, and that one lasted all of three years. So I'm pretty sure Martin realizes that huge, multi-year winters can't be a regular occurrence.

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10 year winters are the most annoying part of any of the fantasy I read. Even if they extreme cold does not extend to the south it does not seem possible for all the kingdoms of Westeros to survive.

Even a 2 or 3 year winter would be devastating. In the middle ages they struggled enough the way it was with a 3-5 month long winter. Just two years is 6 times as long without any production. What do your livestock eat? What do you eat? Are you really going to have your normal social structures after 2 years of being holed up in a castle? The recovery time after 2-3 years of winter would be incredible, every domesticated animal would most likely be dead/eaten. It all seems very ridiculous to me.

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10 year winters are the most annoying part of any of the fantasy I read. Even if they extreme cold does not extend to the south it does not seem possible for all the kingdoms of Westeros to survive.

Even a 2 or 3 year winter would be devastating. In the middle ages they struggled enough the way it was with a 3-5 month long winter. Just two years is 6 times as long without any production. What do your livestock eat? What do you eat? Are you really going to have your normal social structures after 2 years of being holed up in a castle? The recovery time after 2-3 years of winter would be incredible, every domesticated animal would most likely be dead/eaten. It all seems very ridiculous to me.

I'm feeling snarky today, so my first response was going to be: Well, your face is ridiculous. But then i thought better of it, and only put it in in a passive aggressive way. See what i did there?

But in all honesty, there are frozen zombies wandering around. Is a long stretch of winter going to break your brain that much? Just asking....because i think its ridiculous as well.

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Continuing on what was said before, I think each year has mini-cycles on its own. While the "summer" during summer would see three or four harvests a hear, a "summer" in the winter would see maybe only one harvest. Since the number of harvests would average out at two or three a year, we can justify large political entities (honestly, a medieval kingdom ruling a continent without modern transportation seems ludicrous without massive armies to crush dissent).

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But in all honesty, there are frozen zombies wandering around. Is a long stretch of winter going to break your brain that much? Just asking....because i think its ridiculous as well.

Well, if the inclusion of fantasy elements means nothing has to make sense to you, good for you I guess....

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Well, if the inclusion of fantasy elements means nothing has to make sense to you, good for you I guess....

That's a good topic, though: what level of suspension of disbelief should a reader grant a fantasy author, and in what things should it apply? Should an unrealistic economy break the suspension, while an unexplained magic system that contradicts the laws of nature shouldn't?

I for one was willing to buy the long winters aspect since it was part of the fantasy environment. The only thing that really broke my suspension of disbelief for the series was things like the Hound managing to knock Arya unconscious with blunt trauma to the head, without causing any neurological damage or actual injury other than waking up later.

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Hmm, there's a difference between a fantastic element consistent with the setting, and a non-fantastic element inconsistent with the setting. I can buy frozen zombies because a wizard did it, but on the other hand I can hardly buy that normal humans can survive ten years of magical winter with no real logistical preparations for such an ordeal, because it is heavily hinted that wizards have nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, if GRRM makes wizards be responsible for the continuous survival of the North during multi-year winters, it would rock.

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Hmm, there's a difference between a fantastic element consistent with the setting, and a non-fantastic element inconsistent with the setting. I can buy frozen zombies because a wizard did it, but on the other hand I can hardly buy that normal humans can survive ten years of magical winter with no real logistical preparations for such an ordeal, because it is heavily hinted that wizards have nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, if GRRM makes wizards be responsible for the continuous survival of the North during multi-year winters, it would rock.

Speaking of wizards, aren't the Maesters somehow involved in the winter-preparations (I guess mainly as administrators, but still)

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Ten Year winters are things of legend. What about the geothermal heat and glass gardens?
Not every house is the castle of Winterfell, and the castle can hardly house the whole North and feed it, too; even much less repopulate the area once the winter stops and everyone but them has died or fled.

I actually don't care overly much, I was just making a distinction between elements that were meant to be fantastic and as such warranted suspension of disbelief, and those which were not meant to be fantastic, such as the logistics of survival, which should be realistic. It was prompted by some remark about how we should accept shoddy worldbuilding with the same suspension of disbelief we accept fantastic elements in it. If we agree that logistics have nothing in common with frozen zombies, as far as suspension of disbelief goes, then all that's left to argue is whether the worldbuilding is good enough, or not, or how much.

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