Snobbery

[Seventh Pup]

Honestly when I think about snobbery I think about my ex.

My ex was 4 years older then me. We where together for 4 years, for 3 of those years he was either unemployed or working temporary jobs. The last six months we where together he finally had regular employment as a lab technician. He had drank and partied his way to bachelors degree in Psychology before I knew him. For most of the time I knew him he rented cheap rooms in peoples basements.

My ex was also the biggest snob in the world.

He’s father was a doctor and a Capitan in the Navy, his grandfather was a fighter pilot who had made a lot of money in real estate or something. (I would put them as lower upper class.) This of course meant that he was vastly superior to my family and me. My father is a bus driver, so is his wife; my mother is a medical assistant and my stepdad owned his own business. Only my step dad has a bachelor’s. (I have an associates degree but not a bachelor’s). The ex looked at my family as if they where a different species then him. He acted like they could not tell that his thinly veiled insults, and back handed compliments where offensive. (They could, they where just too polite to throw him out in the middle of dinner.)

One of my favorite memories of him is when he was driving he made the statement, as we where talking about my family, “I think I’m just smarter then most people.” He then turned the wrong way down a clearly marked one way road.

Once we managed to pull over to the side of the road with out a head on collision I quipped “How’s that working out for you?”

His family tolerated me only because he had gone through an experimental phase and they where scared he might be gay. I was their best chance for grandchildren, and so they managed to put up with my presence for one diner a year. But I was totally not going to be invited to the holidays.

[Ixodes]

One of my favorite memories of him is when he was driving he made the statement, as we where talking about my family, “I think I’m just smarter then most people.” He then turned the wrong way down a clearly marked one way road.

Once we managed to pull over to the side of the road with out a head on collision I quipped “How’s that working out for you?”

:rofl:

[S John]

He’s father was a doctor and a Capitan in the Navy, his grandfather was a fighter pilot who had made a lot of money in real estate or something. (I would put them as lower upper class.) This of course meant that he was vastly superior to my family and me. My father is a bus driver, so is his wife; my mother is a medical assistant and my stepdad owned his own business. Only my step dad has a bachelor’s. (I have an associates degree but not a bachelor’s). The ex looked at my family as if they where a different species then him. He acted like they could not tell that his thinly veiled insults, and back handed compliments where offensive. (They could, they where just too polite to throw him out in the middle of dinner.)

Its difficult, and totally bad-ass, to be a fighter pilot. But I look at that as more of a lifestyle choice than a class thing. You have to be good, and you have to want it. I know some of these guys, they are type A to the max, but none of it is empty, they earned it and were good enough to earn it. So since your ex wasn't even a fighter pilot (or a doctor) himself, but was riding the coat-tails of a fighter-pilot and a doctor, and thats where he got his snobbishness... well thats the kinda thing that just pisses me right off.

TBH, I like to see people like that fail in life. Because his father and grandfather knew what he doesn't know - that nothing is free. They don't just hand out MD's or the key's to F-16's, y'know? At least those guys earned their positions, too bad they were unable to instill that in the young'un.

[Datepalm]

 I think my family is just so incredibly cheap that any and all possible class markers end up buried beneath that. I will always, always, no exceptions, go for the cheapest option. Unless I can get it for free, that is. (I pick up most of my clothes at give-take markets.)

Class here is just really closely tied to money, I think - people raised with a similar background in terms of their parents income all sort of tend to slip into something pretty similar in terms of their own tastes and behaviours, since you go through the same education system (virtually no private schools - the exception might be all sorts of 'experimental' democratic/anthroposofic/whatever is in fashion schools, which I thought of as an upper class conceit growing up. But the kids that went there really were from wealthier families.) and the army is a big leveller. So i've known people who talked about, like, ski vacations in the Alps growing up, but by the time they're 25 year old students all have a fairly similar sense of personal etiquette, taste, proffessional aspirations, etc. 

[Seventh Pup]

Its difficult, and totally bad-ass, to be a fighter pilot. But I look at that as more of a lifestyle choice than a class thing. You have to be good, and you have to want it. I know some of these guys, they are type A to the max, but none of it is empty, they earned it and were good enough to earn it. So since your ex wasn't even a fighter pilot (or a doctor) himself, but was riding the coat-tails of a fighter-pilot and a doctor, and thats where he got his snobbishness... well thats the kinda thing that just pisses me right off.

TBH, I like to see people like that fail in life. Because his father and grandfather knew what he doesn't know - that nothing is free. They don't just hand out MD's or the key's to F-16's, y'know? At least those guys earned their positions, too bad they were unable to instill that in the young'un.

It’s been 5 years since we parted ways. I know he's in graduate school now. I have no doubt in my mind that he will have a PhD by the time he's 40, (at the very least a Masters). He doesn't need to worry about money because his parents pay for school and when his grandparents kick the bucket he has a nice inheritance coming his way. But I don't know I feel like he's gotten a degree just to keep up with the Jones if you will. That's why he's an academic. Not because he actually loves his subject, but because he NEEDS to be superior to people.

By the time I'm 40 I will probably not have a PhD. I'm not going to get an inheritance from anyone; I will spend my life firmly middle class. But I will still be happier and enjoying life more then he will because he will always he seeking ways in which he can project his superiority. Arrogance is a terrible curse and I will always kind of feel sorry for him.

ETA

About being a fighter pilot. My step brother just got accepted into that program. He starts his training this summer. We are all so incredibly proud of him.

I totally agree that being a pilot or a doctor is something you should be proud of. It takes a lot of hard work. But there is a difference between pride and vanity. My ex is currently studying biology, not because he ever had any kind of interest in biology, but because at the university here he has family connections to the biology department. They where able to secure him the needed recommendations, and internships that eventually got him into graduate school. (He also did work hard, and I'm not trying to belittle that.) But he worked hard because in his mind he needs a post graduate to prove he's smarter then most people. My brother worked hard to get into the pilot program, he put in years. He did it on his own, because that has always been his dream. He's type A but it doesn't stand for asshole.

[Syaani]

My late grandfather used to say that a poor man couldn't afford to buy cheap things.

In a country of 5 million people and only 94 independent years classes are scarce but still evident. In Sweden they talk about "klassresan" a class trip (social mobility) which is evident also here in Finland. My grandparents have spent just few years in school all four together (my dad's mom never went to school in her life - still she was literate) and I and my brother have both two university degrees. I find it baffling to try to speak with my other grandfather about anything else than fishing - it's like we don't have a common language.

Still, even if classes are not so evident as for example in Britain, it's hard to miss the clues. I used to be a journalist and once I had the chance to meet the riches man in Finland (and largest shareholder of the biggest publishing company in northern Europe). He has the pedigree - his father and grandfather were politicians and publishers and bigwigs in this small country - money and manners. Even though I knew how to behave and "small talk" I felt that something was amiss. He (73 years old at that time) was of course the perfect gentleman and insisted that we were on first name basis and I still felt extremely out of place.

In Finland it's still relatively easy to rise above your family's status in money or education but when compared to "older" societies these things doesn't count anymore. A couple on my friends have found their significant others from ye olde stiff upper lip British families. These gyus are the nicest and politest people until agitated (usually when we all are drunk) and the comes the BIG LASH. Yes, we're the hillbillies who invented teh text message and so forth, but our national poet rhymed his verses horribly late - 350 years after Shakespeare - and our classical composers seem to be too modern and architecture crude and functionalist. Actually I agree, but there's nothing I can do about our history (of my family's history).

My point being... well nothing. Time will heal, or not.

[Aemon Stark]

It’s been 5 years since we parted ways. I know he's in graduate school now. I have no doubt in my mind that he will have a PhD by the time he's 40, (at the very least a Masters). He doesn't need to worry about money because his parents pay for school and when his grandparents kick the bucket he has a nice inheritance coming his way. But I don't know I feel like he's gotten a degree just to keep up with the Jones if you will. That's why he's an academic. Not because he actually loves his subject, but because he NEEDS to be superior to people.

I don't know that anyone who only finishes a PhD (or "at least" a Masters) at 40 is in any position to feel or act superior to anyone else. Short of establishing an impressive and important research and academic career at the same time, my first question would be, "What took you so long and what were you doing in your 20s?"

[BLU-RAY]

Word.

Regarding alcohol, I get all my advice from the jokers at American Drink. Not only are they not playing around about cocktails, they're quite often hilarious while doing so.

:rofl:

Someone please get Hereward one of these as a gag gift (literally and figuratively! *rimshot*).

I always thought that Vodka was an essential ingredient of a White Russian. Like it can't be a White Russian without it. Kahlua is what, Mexican? Wouldn't it be a White Mexican if it was just Kahlua and milk?

That reminds me of another thing. I always thought that a Car Bomb was supposed to be 1 guiness + 1 shot, 2/3 Bailey's 1/3 Jameson. Yet I've noticed that a lot of places don't put Jameson in it at all. Feel like I'm getting cheated when that happens. Not that I have a Car Bomb more than a couple times a year, and usually not my idea anyway, but if I'm going to have one they might as well get it right.

Isn't a drink that is just Kahlua and milk a mudslide?

Kahlua and milk is a Sombrero; Kahlua, Bailey's and milk is a mudslide.

John, the carbomb is definitely supposed to have Jameson + Bailey's, though the ratio varies a little here and there.

[peterbound]

I don't know that anyone who only finishes a PhD (or "at least" a Masters) at 40 is in any position to feel or act superior to anyone else. Short of establishing an impressive and important research and academic career at the same time, my first question would be, "What took you so long and what were you doing in your 20s?"

Working, raising a family, serving your country?

Obviously this is not the case with the above mentioned Asshole.

An important and impressive research/academic career are not the end all say all in terms of achievement for some young adults. Or were you just trying to make a snobby statement in line with the tread?

[Aemon Stark]

Working, raising a family, serving your country?

Obviously this is not the case with the above mentioned Asshole.

An important and impressive research/academic career are not the end all say all in terms of achievement for some young adults. Or were you just trying to make a snobby statement in line with the tread?

Hey, someone who goes back to school after an earlier career for a PhD is probably a bit crazy but certainly worthy of respect. Doesn't entitle them to feel "superior" to anyone. And someone who screwed around in their 20s and eventually goes to grad school for the apparent prestige (???) shouldn't feel superior either.

[Angalin]

An important and impressive research/academic career are not the end all say all in terms of achievement for some young adults. Or were you just trying to make a snobby statement in line with the tread?

When it comes to getting a job in academia, if that's what you're after, it looks a lot better on the CV if you've done all your degrees without a pause; definitely for more prestigious institutions, less so for minor ones. There are exceptions if you've done something really ground-breaking or interesting or glamorous, mind you.

Hey, someone who goes back to school after an earlier career for a PhD is probably a bit crazy but certainly worthy of respect. Doesn't entitle them to feel "superior" to anyone. And someone who screwed around in their 20s and eventually goes to grad school for the apparent prestige (???) shouldn't feel superior either.

Depends on the PhD, I'd say: there might be a return on your investment in time or money, or there might not be. The Economist recently said that for most subjects, the earnings premium for a master's degree was 23% while the premium for a PhD was 26% over someone who hadn't gone to university. In fact, it argued that the best thing about PhDs is that universities get a ton of cheap labour to teach lower-level courses... which maybe isn't a great reason for turning out so many of them. Guess lots of people want to be underpaid snobs, to get slightly back on track. :)

[Lord of Oop North]

When it comes to getting a job in academia, if that's what you're after, it looks a lot better on the CV if you've done all your degrees without a pause; definitely for more prestigious institutions, less so for minor ones. There are exceptions if you've done something really ground-breaking or interesting or glamorous, mind you.

And this is rather snobby.

[Angalin]

And this is rather snobby.

Well, yes, but that's how hiring committees look at it. :shrug: Shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize? Let's talk. Covering the community club beat for the local newspaper? See ya. The more fancy names a university has on faculty, the easier the fundraising gets, more and better students apply, which is good because your fancy name cost a lot of money and that budget line needs to be balanced out by eager graduates who will teach for peanuts.

eta: sorry, just spotted the italics. Maybe it has to do partly with creating a publication base? Because more publications in better journals = more funding and research opportunities - but again, it varies by subject and institution. In the private sector, studying architecture then working in a firm for a few years, followed up by an MBA, would be cool; and you could probably go back to teach the occasional course if you wanted to. For example, no-one's going to turn down Frank Gehry as a lecturer, but only a few schools would be able to get someone like that to agree to lecture at all. Honestly, LooN, I'm not sure exactly why universities look at it that way: but in the humanities, the sooner you showed how utterly brilliant you were, the sooner you got a job and clung to it with all your might. The competition is pretty cutthroat and they're all very bitchy about each other. :/

[Aemon Stark]

Not at all. The same goes for a job application when you have big gaps of time on your CV. When it comes to academia, most researchers pursue grad school straight out of undergrad unless they worked in their field for a few years in between. And 22 years out of high school is a long time to finally finish that last terminal degree if you've never had a significant career and don't have any compelling explanation for what you did in those years before grad school. The PhD is still a very significant achievement, but if anyone can feel "superior" in this situation, it's those in their 30s who are supervising PhD students.

[Lord of Oop North]

Not at all. The same goes for a job application when you have big gaps of time on your CV.

Not at all? How so? If you're simply ignoring the circumstances of the gaps between education (or jobs), then yes, you are being a complete snob. In many cases, you are ignoring the realities of life. I know that this is how academia and the business world work, but it's fucking silly.

ETA;

BTW, I wasn't at all referring to the specific case of Seventh Pup's ex, who sounds like a complete tosser.

[IheartTesla]

Academia is pretty snobby to be honest. Often times your pedigree is as important as the work you do to land a position, be it as grad student or professor. There is another reason though why folks are hesitant to consider older candidates for PhD programs. The prejudice being that creativity is young person's game. Particularly in the theoretical sciences your best years are supposed to be in the 20s, and for anyone older you would be getting diminishing returns.

My own personal opinion would be to treat every person based on their qualifications at this snapshot in time, but I understand not many of my colleagues think this way.

[Angalin]

Not at all? How so? If you're simply ignoring the circumstances of the gaps between education (or jobs), then yes, you are being a complete snob. In many cases, you are ignoring the realities of life. I know that this is how academia and the business world work, but it's fucking silly.

Yes it is. :( It's too bad, because I think there's a lot to be said for being a "late bloomer" career-wise: you bring a lot more to the table than does a callow 21-year-old with a freshly-minted BA. (Not like I'm biased or anything. ;))

Academia is pretty snobby to be honest. Often times your pedigree is as important as the work you do to land a position, be it as grad student or professor. There is another reason though why folks are hesitant to consider older candidates for PhD programs. The prejudice being that creativity is young person's game. Particularly in the theoretical sciences your best years are supposed to be in the 20s, and for anyone older you would be getting diminishing returns.

I think the "best years in your 20s" idea comes from the fact that twenty-somethings just don't need as much sleep and therefore work longer, more productive hours. ;) And I completely agree about the weight given to a pedigree.

[Tears of Lys]

Yes it is. :( It's too bad, because I think there's a lot to be said for being a "late bloomer" career-wise: you bring a lot more to the table than does a callow 21-year-old with a freshly-minted BA. (Not like I'm biased or anything. ;))

I think the "best years in your 20s" idea comes from the fact that twenty-somethings just don't need as much sleep and therefore work longer, more productive hours. ;) And I completely agree about the weight given to a pedigree.

I have to laugh at this a bit when I think about how much sleep I NEEDED in my 20's. I felt like I could have slept forever, wheras, now I can make do with a lot less.

However, there's a lot to be said for hiring younger workers. Most folks have a lot more fire in their guts in their 20's than later on. They're usually willing to put up with more shit in the interest of furthering their careers too, hence, employers can get a lot more out of them. As you get older, you tend to get a bit less willing to put up with what you did in your 20's. Add that to the fact that as you age, the chances of needing more health care rises - making it more expensive for companies/organizations, etc., to employ you.

Not that I myself wouldn't hire an older worker. it totally depends on the person. But on average, it makes sense.

[Angalin]

I have to laugh at this a bit when I think about how much sleep I NEEDED in my 20's. I felt like I could have slept forever, wheras, now I can make do with a lot less.

:lol: I certainly had way more party stamina then than I do now, so in no way am I using actual data to prove my statement. ;)

Yes, younger workers are easier to exploit and their benefits packages come a lot cheaper.