Spring Bass Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 So what do we have now? Just adventure stories?I usually just think of it as "Speculative Fiction", which also includes science fiction and all varieties of fantasy. what function does magic serve in Fantasy lit? Do you like it? Would you even miss it if it went away? Magic in fantasy is basically just a plot device, a kind of "black box" ability that somehow allows someone to do something that would otherwise be impossible in real life for the purpose of story-telling. I like magic, provided it's done consistently. That said, I have no problems with low- or even non-existent magic secondary worlds. I agree with some of the above posters, that there's no real hard-line between science fiction and fantasy. Sure, you can say with science fiction that it's black box technology instead of weird physics/subjective reality/meddling gods/etc, but most science fiction goes into the "magic tech" area anyways (even a lot of so-called "hard" science fiction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raids Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I think I'd call The City & The City alternate history actually.I was thinking along your lines at first, but wouldn't it really be alternate present, or alternate near-present of a kind that is totally possible in our world? In the very near-future without any technological advances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I was thinking along your lines at first, but wouldn't it really be alternate present, or alternate near-present of a kind that is totally possible in our world? In the very near-future without any technological advances?Ah, I don't think alternate history means "set in the past" neccessarily, any story where the earth goes through a different history is "alternate history":It's just that Mieville's book is set in the now, but the history that brought it about is different: Hence alternatehistory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raids Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Good point, thanks. I would agree then - it's alternate history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I consider any book with a full secondary world to be fantasy.There are some secondary-world books like Iain M. Banks' Against A Dark Background that take place in a world which clearly has no connection or historical link with Earth (although I suppose you could argue that it might just be in another part of our Universe) but have no fantastical elements but lots of technology, I'd definitely classify it as Science Fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdanel Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 No magic = Not fantasy. Period.As I see it, the genre of fantasy is defined by being a story which could not happen in our universe according to science and the author doesn't even try to pretend to make it compatible with our current understanding of the natural laws.It's important to remember that secondary-world fantasy is only one type of fantasy. You can also have fantasy set in our world like Harry Potter and many other examples. You can even have fantasy set on board of a spaceship. Low technology does not equal fantasy. It is absolutely possible to have fantasy where the mechanics of magic are well-understood and where people have magical plumbing.Some examples:- Nightfall by Isaac Asimov is secondary world science fiction.- Vincalis the Agitator by Holly Lisle is fantasy where magic is treated as a science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curethan Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 No magic = Not fantasy. Period.Dragonriders of Pern...There's no magic per se, but I won't let it into my sci-fi stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andriy Czarchenko Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Lions of Al-Rassan is set in the same world as Last Light of the Sun, which has faeries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Ah, I don't think alternate history means "set in the past" neccessarily, any story where the earth goes through a different history is "alternate history":It's just that Mieville's book is set in the now, but the history that brought it about is different: Hence alternatehistory.But that covers essentially any story that's set in a fictional part of the real world. Which doesn't seem quite right to me. What about all those Tintin stories set in Sylvania and Borduria? They're not alternate histories, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liadin Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I think its a pretty common sentiment that fireball throwing wizards and magic swords are dodgy cliches and not everyones cup of tea anyway. So what do we have now? Just adventure stories? (With, Important Human Themes, and all that.) I guess i'm wondering, since its apparently possible to do without - what function does magic serve in Fantasy lit? Do you like it? Would you even miss it if it went away? I wouldn't miss magic, I'm not really a fan and my fantasy reading tends disproportionately toward the low-magic and no-magic worlds. If it's a secondary world it counts as far as I'm concerned. The cool thing about these kinds of stories is that you don't have to stick strictly to the historical events, people, and societies of the real world--you can tell whatever kind of story you want but without getting bogged down in fireball-throwing wizards and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gormenghast Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I find peculiar how someone who says he doesn't care about magic then picks his reads entirely on the fact there's magic or not in them.Seems a fairly stupid bias in reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 In my mind the line between fantasy and sci-fi is whether or not it takes place in our reality, or in one of the author's creation. Magic is irrelevant. By reality I mean that sci-fi novels take place in our own universe. It may be in a galaxy far far away with absolutely no relationship to Earth, as in Star Wars, or involve the future of our own species, but the definitive factor is that it takes place in the same universe that we inhabit, with all the laws of existence applying.Fantasy, however, exists in a universe of the author's own creation, and is not bound by the realities of our own universe, though there may be many similarities. An author may choose not to have the concept of "time" exist in his world, or take human beings and make them a radically different species. He can do whatever the hell he wants, because it's not bound by our reality.So while both sci-fi and fantasy can have secondary worlds, whether or not those worlds exist in our universe, or in one of the author's design is what separates them. Works like Harry Potter, which are based in our universe, are fantasy because they contradict reality as we understand it, and thus are actually universes of the author's creation. Muttering Latin does not bend matter to your will in our reality, after all :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 It may be in a galaxy far far away with absolutely no relationship to Earth, as in Star Wars, or involve the future of our own species, but the definitive factor is that it takes place in the same universe that we inhabit, with all the laws of existence applying.Really? In Star Wars? Despite the rather weak attempt at a midi-chlorian scientific explanation, the Force is magic every step of the way, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 In my mind the line between fantasy and sci-fi is whether or not it takes place in our reality, or in one of the author's creation. Magic is irrelevant. By reality I mean that sci-fi novels take place in our own universe. It may be in a galaxy far far away with absolutely no relationship to Earth, as in Star Wars, or involve the future of our own species, but the definitive factor is that it takes place in the same universe that we inhabit, with all the laws of existence applying.Fantasy, however, exists in a universe of the author's own creation, and is not bound by the realities of our own universe, though there may be many similarities. An author may choose not to have the concept of "time" exist in his world, or take human beings and make them a radically different species. He can do whatever the hell he wants, because it's not bound by our reality.So while both sci-fi and fantasy can have secondary worlds, whether or not those worlds exist in our universe, or in one of the author's design is what separates them. Works like Harry Potter, which are based in our universe, are fantasy because they contradict reality as we understand it, and thus are actually universes of the author's creation. Muttering Latin does not bend matter to your will in our reality, after all :P :agree: :agree: :agree: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Muttering Latin does not bend matter to your will in our reality, after allTrue, but quite a bit of science fiction (in fact, I'd venture to say most science fiction) more or less blatantly violates the laws of physics as we know them. I'm not just talking about the obvious ones, like Faster-than-Light Travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Really? In Star Wars? Despite the rather weak attempt at a midi-chlorian scientific explanation, the Force is magic every step of the way, surely?I would consider Star Wars fantasy rather than sci-fi, personally, since as you say the Force is magic. The story is supposed to take place in our universe, but it's a variation of our known universe created by Lucas, and thus a fantasy creation. Fantasy with robots and spaceships is still fantasy in my mind, it's just that many people hold the view that Technology = Sci-fi and Medieval settings with magic = Fantasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Really? In Star Wars? Despite the rather weak attempt at a midi-chlorian scientific explanation, the Force is magic every step of the way, surely?There is something called "science fantasy." Star Wars and Dying Earth, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Second time today. I need a new mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 True, but quite a bit of science fiction (in fact, I'd venture to say most science fiction) more or less blatantly violates the laws of physics as we know them. I'm not just talking about the obvious ones, like Faster-than-Light Travel.I feel that principles aren't being broken, so much as the novel's assumption is that our current understanding of them is in fact false, and methods of breaking/exploiting what we now consider laws become possible due to future technologies, and thus it's still occurring in our universe. The technological inventions that we possess now would be considered nothing short of magic to people hundreds of years, not because they're impossible in actuality, but because they're impossible based upon the knowledge at those times.Fantasy, however, when set in our world, does not seek to use that line of argument to explain how the laws of the universe are being manipulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimlessgun Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 You could extend that definition to 2nd world fantasy that doesn't have visible magic also. If the author doesn't have a science fictional explanation for the presence of humans (and generally earth species of all sorts) on this planet, magic is implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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