Opportunities to cast non-white actors

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Nah, everyone's welcome! Just don't be surprised if people don't cut you any slack for it, depending on what you post. (See above.)

[Lord Raul]

I hope Lord Raul is pulling our leg and deliberately trolling because I find is arguments laughable and bordering on offensive. I would hate to think he's serious.

There's no reason some characters can't be shown to have some mixed ancestry or deviate a bit differently from the book. I don't really care at all as long as the actor is sufficiently talented enough to do the role well. I do wish GRRM had made the main cast of his books a bit more ethnically diverse because I would have found that to be a refreshing change from the way most fantasy stories are, but oh well. We're getting a main cast that's going to be 99% Caucasian anyway, so Lord Raul really doesn't have anything to fear in the end.

Here's one I'll throw out here as a possibility if we're lucky enough to get as enough seasons for it: Archmaester Marwyn. I suspect he's going to play a bigger role in the later books.

NEWS FLASH FANTASY BOOKS ARE BASED ON A MEDIEVAL WESTERN EUROPEAN FANTASY WORLD PERSPECTIVE and Martin has done an excellent job having diversity in his books, a great amount of it.

[Lord Raul]

No, just racist.

Surely it doesn't surprise you to see a few of them pop up now and again? :) It seems pretty clear by now that he comes by his opinions honestly, however distasteful they are.

I have not said anything bordering on racism in this forum. People you the word racist far too much in the Anglosphere, it is not racist to think that a show should be more true to its source material not have blaks in every shot. Racism would be saying that Summer Isles skin is dark, thus they are biologically beneath those in Westeros. Or the mere sight of a black man on television repulses me and so they need to just make the Summer Islanders look like some tanned white guys. never said that, I just believe that many people are trying to sabatoge the story by making a bunch of non-whites more promininet. Also a tad off topic, but by trying to force the gay relationship of Renly and the Knight of Flowers on the viewers, just so they can so graphic homosexual sex scenes to make a specific market happy. It is uneseccary Its the same principle really. I do however think that many of the people on this forum want feel sick about how there is just not enough diversity in the books, on tv, or just plain anywhere. Well Marin has ample room for non-white characters. There is nothing racist about that, they just don't really live in the Seven Kingdoms. YES there are non-whites in the Seven Kingdoms, but they are not native and should not be portrayed as such. they should be outsiders, just like the Summer Islanders are in court.

[Thefalconemperor]

I have to agree with Lord Raul to a extent here. Casting non-white characters Just Because would be downright lame outside the places they could very well appear (seaside markets etc.).

P.S. and Dorne is spanish to arabian at most.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

NEWS FLASH FANTASY BOOKS ARE BASED ON A MEDIEVAL WESTERN EUROPEAN FANTASY WORLD PERSPECTIVE and Martin has done an excellent job having diversity in his books, a great amount of it.

Certainly, Martin did base his book on that which was his prerogative. I wish he could have gone a slightly different route and have made his fantasy series one which included a medieval world where the main cast of characters had a bit more ethnic diversity instead of relegated to a secondary roles and minor characters, but he didn't as you've repeated ad nauseum. You've also made it perfectly clear that you don't want ANY characters cast as anything BUT Caucasians except for in the cases where the book explicitly describes a character as being non-Caucasian. We get that; we really do.

We're also entitled to disagree with you, and I really find your over the top reactions strange. You're going to get what you want. I'll bet you anything Davos, Melisandre, and the others that were suggested on this thread will be played by Caucasian actors. If by some unlikely chance they're not, I don't think it'd be THE MOST HORRIBLE THING EVAH!!!!1 which is the impression I get from you. Really, I think you need to take a deep breath and relax.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

NEWS FLASH FANTASY BOOKS ARE BASED ON A MEDIEVAL WESTERN EUROPEAN FANTASY WORLD PERSPECTIVE and Martin has done an excellent job having diversity in his books, a great amount of it.

Some are, some are not. We don't know what George had in his head beyond what he's written, which is not as explicit as you're taking it to be. (There are obvious medieval Western European influences, particularly later medieval English influences. I don't think anybody's denied that. The practicalities of his world mean that it isn't as isolated as England was -- which wasn't actually as isolated as people seem to think -- and all some of us are saying is that we hope the TV show reflects that. Though yes, I do try to notice when there are too many white faces around, if the story wouldn't realistically be that way. Imagine The Wire with an all-white cast - I'd think they were totally kidding themselves. King's Landing and parts of Westeros and across the Narrow Sea are probably not as extreme as that, but yeah, it's still something I try to be mindful of.)

[Lord Raul]

Some are, some are not. We don't know what George had in his head beyond what he's written, which is not as explicit as you're taking it to be. (There are obvious medieval Western European influences, particularly later medieval English influences. I don't think anybody's denied that. The practicalities of his world mean that it isn't as isolated as England was -- which wasn't actually as isolated as people seem to think -- and all some of us are saying is that we hope the TV show reflects that. Though yes, I do try to notice when there are too many white faces around, if the story wouldn't realistically be that way. Imagine The Wire with an all-white cast - I'd think they were totally kidding themselves. King's Landing and parts of Westeros and across the Narrow Sea are probably not as extreme as that, but yeah, it's still something I try to be mindful of.)

Perfect example is the Wire, imagine if for diversity's sake the creators of the show decided to show a few more blondes in the crowd. Because as well all know blondes do live in Baltimore, but the show is really about African American struggles and culture, not about how can we include Asian actors or Inian or what have you. There are white people in the show, where it is realistic that they would be, they are not the drug kingpins of the inner city or even better in the Sopranos having some the Italian Mafia be African American or Asian it would be lame.

[Lord Raul]

Some are, some are not. We don't know what George had in his head beyond what he's written, which is not as explicit as you're taking it to be. (There are obvious medieval Western European influences, particularly later medieval English influences. I don't think anybody's denied that. The practicalities of his world mean that it isn't as isolated as England was -- which wasn't actually as isolated as people seem to think -- and all some of us are saying is that we hope the TV show reflects that. Though yes, I do try to notice when there are too many white faces around, if the story wouldn't realistically be that way. Imagine The Wire with an all-white cast - I'd think they were totally kidding themselves. King's Landing and parts of Westeros and across the Narrow Sea are probably not as extreme as that, but yeah, it's still something I try to be mindful of.)

Lets check off everything that is based on Medieval Europe: Castles, Lords, Chivarlry, Servants, Ladies, Jousts, Knights, Powerful religous leaders, Militant Religous Pilgrims, in some ways Similar Moral Code, Males inhereting the titles, Bastards, Lances, and all sorts of Weaponary, a Gold Standard of coin, Houses and Titles, Feudal form of Government, No strong focus on navies, EUROPEAN DRAGONS,and the list goes on and on. Of course he drew influences from other peoples and this list is not exclusive to that time or people but modern fantasy was started by Tolkien and he drew almost everything from old anglo saxon and norse mythology. AND YES ENGLAND WAS ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD!!!! After Rome it was pretty much only Northern Europeans making contact with the island, ever heard of the Dark AGES? and After that the Crusades which they had minimal involvement with, which would be their first taste of the outside world, since Roman occupatoin

[Lord Raul]

Certainly, Martin did base his book on that which was his prerogative. I wish he could have gone a slightly different route and have made his fantasy series one which included a medieval world where the main cast of characters had a bit more ethnic diversity instead of relegated to a secondary roles and minor characters, but he didn't as you've repeated ad nauseum. You've also made it perfectly clear that you don't want ANY characters cast as anything BUT Caucasians except for in the cases where the book explicitly describes a character as being non-Caucasian. We get that; we really do.

We're also entitled to disagree with you, and I really find your over the top reactions strange. You're going to get what you want. I'll bet you anything Davos, Melisandre, and the others that were suggested on this thread will be played by Caucasian actors. If by some unlikely chance they're not, I don't think it'd be THE MOST HORRIBLE THING EVAH!!!!1 which is the impression I get from you. Really, I think you need to take a deep breath and relax.

Why do you wish that he would have included more divesity? He has had more divesity in the characters than his peers, its just that his story is set in Westeoros, not the non-white portions of the world. If you would like to write a book about black people jousting and merry making, I think it would be great and I would read it, but that is nots Martins book so don't try and change the story. And yes producers to look to see if they are being racially sensitive and if there is an outcry over not having enough black people in the cast, in American and England, they will accomidate the diversity crowd. So if you want an HBO show full of color based on a fantasy series, write it and we will all read it and I will not ask for some whites, or asians or some other group that feels left out of the scheme. And we will not pressure you to accomidate our racial whimsy, because I do not feel more complete as a person when I see white people or asians or blacks getting more represention and you shouldnt either. your self worth should not be based on your race or people you see on tv, if it is you are from the last century, wake up and realize that it is ok to have people be themselves and they shouldnt have to accomidate every group.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Why do you wish that he would have included more divesity? He has had more divesity in the characters than his peers, its just that his story is set in Westeoros, not the non-white portions of the world.

First off, Martin could have chosen to have Westeros population not be mostly Caucasian. He didn't, and that's his choice and that's fine he made that choice. I personally like it in when authors include a more ethnically diverse cast, but it certainly didn't make me enjoy Martin's story any less. As to why I enjoy it, I think it adds more flavor to the story, and I also think it would encourage more minorities to read and get involved in fantasy works, which can only be a good thing in my view.

If you would like to write a book about black people jousting and merry making, I think it would be great and I would read it, but that is nots Martins book so don't try and change the story.

No one is trying to "change the story". You really seem to have an irrational fear about this. This thread was made to discuss opportunities to cast minority actors. The purpose of that is for us to look at the world that Martin created and speculate which characters could plausibly be played by Non-Caucasians actors without changing the wonderful story Martin has created and without being jarring. For some reason however, you seem to have an idea that we're all foaming at the mouth to cram as many black and Asian actors into the show as possible in every setting of the series.

And yes producers to look to see if they are being racially sensitive and if there is an outcry over not having enough black people in the cast, in American and England, they will accomidate the diversity crowd.

None of the main characters in Lord of the Rings had their races changed in order to satisfy "the diversity crowd". This is hardly the first fantasy show, or even TV show that's ever been made with a mainly white cast. I think your fears aren't very well founded, but if they do feel this pressure, then I think there's some characters they could cast of a different ethnicity that would not be tantamount to changing the story in any significant way whatsoever.

So if you want an HBO show full of color based on a fantasy series, write it and we will all read it and I will not ask for some whites, or asians or some other group that feels left out of the scheme. And we will not pressure you to accomidate our racial whimsy, because I do not feel more complete as a person when I see white people or asians or blacks getting more represention and you shouldnt either. your self worth should not be based on your race or people you see on tv, if it is you are from the last century, wake up and realize that it is ok to have people be themselves and they shouldnt have to accomidate every group.

I don't see anyone pressuring the producers. We aren't planning on mounting a letter writing campaign to complain to HBO about this. If we were, then you could say that, but I think once again you're really just completely overreacting to the subject of this thread again. Again, take a deep breath, relax and you'll be able to enjoy your HBO show with 99% white cast of main characters.

To be honest, I really don't care that much about HBO having "a show of color". HBO has already done other shows with plenty of ethnic diversity. Game of Thrones doesn't need to be one of them. However, I still don't think it's an outrageous idea to speculate which big character roles could possibly be cast with non-white actors.

[Lord Raul]

First off, Martin could have chosen to have Westeros population not be mostly Caucasian. He didn't, and that's his choice and that's fine he made that choice. I personally like it in when authors include a more ethnically diverse cast, but it certainly didn't make me enjoy Martin's story any less. As to why I enjoy it, I think it adds more flavor to the story, and I also think it would encourage more minorities to read and get involved in fantasy works, which can only be a good thing in my view.

That is fine, but if you want minority kids to read fantasy, but understand I read stories about kids all the time that were from differeint ethinc and racial backgrounds then me. And his story is full of diverstiy, Lanisters, Starks, Dornish people, Targs, all different ethinic groups in a fantasy world. So with certain features, so why project real world minorities to play the parts, when they are fictional and already have an appearnce described in detail. And I do not know one kid who looks heres about a book and says "How many Black characters are in this?" and if a kid does say that then they need to read something else besides Fantasy. And Harry Potter is full of little kids of color and I don't see the black kids lining up in the streets to read those books or watch the movies, they have even had several interracial romances in that seires. But I do not complain about all of the blacks or asians in those movies, because they are written in the books. Although in the books Jenny's boyfriend is not black, but whatever.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

so why project real world minorities to play the parts, when they are fictional and already have an appearnce described in detail.

Martin's world is a fantasy world and even in Martin's fantasy world he includes people of with pale skin, olive skin, dark brown skin, etc. What real world minorities do you think are we projecting in here? No one is saying Martin needs to include Africans and Chinese people in his works, but he absolutely could have (just an example!) given the Andals that invaded Asian features, or he could have made the invading Targaryens have dark brown skin with strikingly white hair and purple eyes and and the story would have read just as fine, no? Again, though Martin didn't, and that's his choice, and I love the story we did get regardless.

And I do not know one kid who looks heres about a book and says "How many Black characters are in this?"

I can't speak as a member of a minority, but I know as a woman, I can and have enjoyed plenty of stories that have only male characters. However, honestly, I really love it when there's a series with good, strong women characters as well, and I'm more likely to be drawn to such series. I'm not even sure why exactly it appeals to me so much (I know not all women are like me, but I don't think I'm too unusual either here). Maybe it's because to a certain extent I find it easier to imagine myself as the character when it's a bit closer to me? It might be why I like Sansa so much because I was once an know-it-all 13-year-old who had her head in the clouds and needed a harsh wakening up to the realities of the world.

So, yes, you'll find kids who will happily read books with main characters that don't look a thing like them, but to say it has no affect whatsoever, I just don't feel that is correct. I could have sworn I've actually read some studies that back me up on this awhile back. I'll see if I can dig them up if you're interested.

[Padraig]

I have to agree with Lord Raul to a extent here. Casting non-white characters Just Because would be downright lame outside the places they could very well appear (seaside markets etc.).

That's not what Lord Raul is saying though. He is running away in horror at the idea that anyone prominent could be non-white.

Nobody has ever said we should just make any random characters Asian or African. OTOH, people have said that some characters could be Asian or African without changing the story in any significant way. Emphasis on "some" and "could be". Nobody is insisting on anything (except Lord Raul).

NEWS FLASH FANTASY BOOKS ARE BASED ON A MEDIEVAL WESTERN EUROPEAN FANTASY WORLD PERSPECTIVE

All fantasy books? You need to read more.

Because as well all know blondes do live in Baltimore, but the show is really about African American struggles and culture, not about how can we include Asian actors or Inian or what have you.

Westeros is not the real world. They can do whatever they want with it. :lol:

But I do not complain about all of the blacks or asians in those movies, because they are written in the books.

That's very big of you.

The real question is why do you think this is a big deal? This is a fantasy world. Made up. Doesn't exist. They can make a few small changes if they wish. Unfortunately, you continue to harp on about huge changes to the books, when people are just suggesting a few small changes.

And why is the colour of somebody's skin such a big deal if it has no impact on the story? Why are you so worried about seeing more non-white characters than you you want to? Your posts are unsavoury but at least in a hilarious way.

[Thelonious]

AND YES ENGLAND WAS ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD!!!! After Rome it was pretty much only Northern Europeans making contact with the island, ever heard of the Dark AGES?

Ye gods. Yes, we've all heard of the "Dark Ages". Some of us have even heard of Theodore of Tarsus, Adelard of Bath and Alfred the Great's Mission to India.

[TrueMetis]

Lets check off everything that is based on Medieval Europe: Castles, Lords, Chivarlry, Servants, Ladies, Jousts, Knights, Powerful religous leaders, Militant Religous Pilgrims, in some ways Similar Moral Code, Males inhereting the titles, Bastards, Lances, and all sorts of Weaponary, a Gold Standard of coin, Houses and Titles, Feudal form of Government, No strong focus on navies, EUROPEAN DRAGONS,and the list goes on and on. Of course he drew influences from other peoples and this list is not exclusive to that time or people but modern fantasy was started by Tolkien and he drew almost everything from old anglo saxon and norse mythology. AND YES ENGLAND WAS ISOLATED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD!!!! After Rome it was pretty much only Northern Europeans making contact with the island, ever heard of the Dark AGES? and After that the Crusades which they had minimal involvement with, which would be their first taste of the outside world, since Roman occupatoin

Uh a lot of that could be used to describe many different places. Replace knights with Samurai and you've got Japan instead.

And yes England was isolated, just not as much as you seem to think. comparatively isolated and actually isolated are two different things.

[Lord Raul]

This is a big deal to us all, because TV reflects culture and peoples perspectives. I am not the only one that cares about this, because this forum existed before I joined and prior to this one SpikeBrennen tried to say that the producers should cast an all black cast for Dorne that is a pathetic attempt to be lame.If in every show, and yes every show, we have to include black people in it then honestly that is pathetic. Honestly even now, Just now we have Norse God in Thor begin black, Legend of the Seeker coutnless blacks and limitless others. So to just start throwing black people into the frey just to add a little flavor is embarrassing. Same thing with the gratutaous gay sex scenes. It is lame and we don't have to make things gay or black to make people feel better. I am currently making a film that deals with this very issue, it will be set in a black tribal setting, and I am going to cast a few asians to appeal to the vast chinese market:) I understand most of you on here are ultra liberal yuppies who love to say how evil colonialism and think you despise European facism and Americanism but come on its ok to have an all white cast where called for, no need for white guilt here.

And my last point on the minority issue, unless you are an actually a racist you should understand that people's racial group does not chemically or biologically shape there world view. However being a woman, it does do those things, so it would make sense that you would like to read about women characters if you are a woman. But if we races are all equal and skin color, skull structure, body structure, IQ, eye color and hair color do not matter then neither should the skin color of a fictional character in a story.

What evidence does anyone have of England or Western Europe being this diverse melting pot? I am curious because people keep saying, well they found a black guys skeleton, or this moore went to London or a King had a black serving boy. If anyone has any serious evidence of this please link to it, because people keep saying, London was so diverse, Europe was a thriving center for people of color, well please show me some evidence of this? Europe was isolated unti the age of discovery, I am sorry if yall have bought into what the history channel teaches, with ancient aliesn and such.

[Padraig]

So to just start throwing black people into the frey just to add a little flavor is embarrassing. Same thing with the gratutaous gay sex scenes. It is lame and we don't have to make things gay or black to make people feel better.

:lol:

Right. Now you are not even trying not to be a troll.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

We've given you links, haven't we? Just in case:

Ipswich skeleton (with picture)

Barbary lions in the medieval Tower Zoo

The trumpeter was already given a link, with a contemporary illumination.

The Silk Road in medieval times - the image at the top shows the routes leading as far as Rome/Venice, which for trading comparisons is closer to KL than London. They continued through there to other parts of Western Europe. Notice also the other sea routes to areas of the African continent and out to parts within Oceania.

Timbuktu, representative of more of the African trade.

Catalan Atlas showing various routes for trade.

In all of these, nobody's saying it's all one large melting pot. It's just plausible that there would be interaction in these trading cities, such as KL (has anyone said Bear Island should be the same? Don't think so.) and possible that some characters, from extras to at least semi-major characters, could be played by an actor of colour and be portrayed as such. (Note that "of colour" doesn't necessarily exclude multiracial, which is one of the suggestions for Davos.)

I really wish you would address the arguments people have made, rather than ones you make up so that you can defeat them. (Though I'm sure the strawmen love the employment.) Then again, that would have made this discussion a lot shorter.

Also, people tend to ask for various ethnicities and sexualities because these things exist, and have existed through history, and exist in Martin's books - it's not something out of our collective imagination. It gets really boring watching or reading about middle-class white guys all of the time, especially if you aren't one.

[Lord Raul]

If we take a step back, and like I said there are various ethnicities in the Seven Kingdoms, that all have a European appearnce. They have different cultures and appiteits, just like Euorope. Which is not just some plain old Anglo Saxon middle aged white guy. I would not call Raegar boring old white guy or Robbert Baratheon.

The only non-white characters that should be in Westeros, would be: Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles. That is it. They would be oddities and rarities and thus there would be no need for extras, or semi-major characters other than those from the outside world.

And in the real world, I think you might be confused when you are looking at a trade route map, it doesnt mean that merchants from Africa travled all the way up to Europe or somewhere else, it just means that there goods were put on a route, and they were traded between merchant to merchant until they finally arrived. The Chinese used the silk road, but Chinese traders did not travel all the way to Germany to deliver silk. There were hundreds of middle men inbetween.

[Abaddon]

Same thing with the gratutaous gay sex scenes. It is lame and we don't have to make things gay or black to make people feel better.

Funny, I don't see you claiming that the added hetero sex scenes (for example Tyrion at the brothel in Kings Landing is a new scene, not in the book) are gratuitous. Nice to know we can add homophobia to the racism; but it's really a pretty common combination, so I wouldn't feel special if I were you.