Opportunities to cast non-white actors

[Spastic Plastic]

They didn't keep black people as pets, although they were weirded out by them. People didn't have any ideas about "inferior races" back then.

Racism is giving negative characteristics to other races. Europeans didn't do this until the colonization of the Americas.

[Lord Raul]

Actually, it is you who are insisting that GRRM's Westeros was modeled after medieval Europe; Europe, just to refresh your memory, is on Earth. This planet. So, it appears to be you who insists that the evolutionary and biologic mechanisms that occurred to make skin tones on Earth are in opeeration on the fictionalized world of Westeros; thus provoking your apparent outrage that black people may be both common and numerous in George RR Martin's creation.

And what, at least I am objecting to, I cant speak, er, write for others, is your assertion that NO character is black unless specifically stated as such, and your seeming intent to LIMIT the numbers of black people who may dwell there by opposing their portrayal by black people.

Given Mr Martins generous use of the phrase "dark skinned", dark skin can EASILY mean black. One may even say they could be synonymous.

SPASTIC PLASTIC, thank you for your clarification, however I am not so sure I agree as I believe that keeping a black person as an "exotic" is a form of racism in and of itself. People are not pets. BUT I also do understand what you were trying to convey there.

Have you not been reading what I have been saying? I am not saying that Westeros is based on earth, only the model for it. However in the Seven Kingdoms Marin is very specific on what characters look like.

[The Fan]

Sometimes, a spade is a spade.

This comment, IMO, is a masterstroke of subtle cleverness.

[The Fan]

I am not saying that Westeros is based on earth, only the model for it.

Please elaborate how "not based on, but modeled after" works. As it stands, that comment is immensely contradictory.

[smegma]

Just for Lord Raul's sake I hope they make Stannis a gay black man.

[fitheach]

Jeez, what happened to this thread?!

The only non-white characters that should be in Westeros, would be: Merchants/Sailors, Diplomats and Political Exiles. That is it. They would be oddities and rarities and thus there would be no need for extras, or semi-major characters other than those from the outside world.

Don't forget certain ladies of the evening, and possibly a red priestess... So yeaaah, have you actually read the novels? Westeros is not a cut off or homogeneous realm, particularly Kings Landing. Seriously, have you ever been to a city or are you a complete hick? Cities are diverse and always have been, in our world and seemingly GRRM's Westeros as well. To imagine that major port cities/capital cities, are not racially diverse, is naive. People go to those cities, and often stay...

[Padraig]

Just for Lord Raul's sake I hope they make Stannis a gay black man.

If he ever recovers from seeing Loras and Renly together. :P

However in the Seven Kingdoms Marin is very specific on what characters look like.

And the TV producers have changed lots of those aspects already. I expect you'll turn the TV off after 2 minutes. :drunk:

[Thelonious]

If he ever recovers from seeing Loras and Renly together. :P

It's ridiculous, everyone knows there were no gays in the Middle Ages

[The Fan]

It's ridiculous, everyone knows there were no gays in the Middle Ages

None.

[arsonstar]

Wow, I see raul giving his opinion, just like everyone else. the problem is that his opinion seems to invoke the inevitable "racist" witch hunt. when someone doesnt see why there needs to be more non whites in a show.

personally i would like to see a westeros that is mostly caucasian because thats how i envisioned it while reading it (and i belive thats how grrm saw it when he wrote it). Kings landing SHOULD have a smattering of different races, and i dont see a problem with davos being some kind of mix. But as i see it there have been too many changes already. Ilrio (sp?) is not fat enough, the ages are a bit screwy, jaime and cierce dont look enough alike and so on.

visually i would like to see each nation have its own "look" racially. and that would portray danys storyline better as the outsider in a different land.

Mel i believe has been described as milky white skin, the actress should represent that.

Some of who want more non whites, but only if they are not portrayed as villans, fools, or outcasts. i dont get this. just about everyone in the story is a villan, fool, or outcast. why dont you feel bad about white actors being portrayed as such?

it reeks of " hey im not racist, i hate white people"

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

His opinion is invoking replies detailing racism because that's what it is. No no no, it must be all white because that is what I think of when asked to fill in the blanks, therefore anybody who doesn't fit my mental picture MUST be a gratuitous change....

If, in the last part, you're referring to my comment, I never said I didn't want to see any character of colour as "a villain, fool, or outcast". All that I said was that I want to see everyone portrayed as people rather than tropes, including the innocuous everyday ones, or the well-meaning but misguided ones, or the traders, or any other place it would be unreasonable (and yes, racist) to exclude them.

Remember, racism isn't always going out and burning crosses or calling for deaths. It's also passing over equally-qualified candidates because they're "not like us" or "wouldn't fit in". (In things like movies, which I've referred to before, it's also the practice of re-casting characters to be white out of some misguided reason that white people would never associate with a non-white lead, but of course everyone will associate with a white guy. People are very used to associating with that archetypal white guy, because it's the vast majority of what's offered to us, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't sometimes like to see something else.)

[Lord Raul]

His opinion is invoking replies detailing racism because that's what it is. No no no, it must be all white because that is what I think of when asked to fill in the blanks, therefore anybody who doesn't fit my mental picture MUST be a gratuitous change....

If, in the last part, you're referring to my comment, I never said I didn't want to see any character of colour as "a villain, fool, or outcast". All that I said was that I want to see everyone portrayed as people rather than tropes, including the innocuous everyday ones, or the well-meaning but misguided ones, or the traders, or any other place it would be unreasonable (and yes, racist) to exclude them.

Remember, racism isn't always going out and burning crosses or calling for deaths. It's also passing over equally-qualified candidates because they're "not like us" or "wouldn't fit in". (In things like movies, which I've referred to before, it's also the practice of re-casting characters to be white out of some misguided reason that white people would never associate with a non-white lead, but of course everyone will associate with a white guy. People are very used to associating with that archetypal white guy, because it's the vast majority of what's offered to us, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't sometimes like to see something else.)

Your comment here makes no sense.

And I am not filling the blanks with whats in my head. It whats in the books. Everytime a black character is introduced it is mentioned and he says where they are from. I am not filling that in. Its in the book. Black people are from the Summer Isles. I did not make that up. So unless they had a special reason for being in Westeros, which there are some, they would not be there. They would be outsiders foriegners in Westeros. They would not be in the Gold Cloaks or anything of the sort.

And yes I live in an extremley diverse city, and if there is a tv show set here it had better be diverse, because that is what it is. However long distance travel did not really start occuring until the 1400s and Africans never had a large scale shipping capabilites. So they would hardly have ever wound up in London or Europe, they would have had either been brought there, or been there for a distinct purpose.

[arsonstar]

LRLE, i wasn't aiming at anyone spesifically, there were a few posts early on mentioning something like that.

I just think that Raul was not being racist by feeling like the show should look a certain way, for the most part i agree with him.

I can't speak for Raul but if there were more than a small percentage of "non whites"

in westeros it wouldnt seem right to me.

On the flip side if there were more than a small percentage of "whites" in most of the other nations i would feel the same.

In general people tend to live near and form comunities with people of similar background and appearance. I believe there would be a bunch of diferent races in KL, and other trade hotspots but i think they would tend to stick together (of course there are always exeptions).

This is my opinion and i believe it is similar to Rauls.

I am pretty sure he doesnt deserve the accusations being thrown around.

I could be wrong though. It has happened once or twice before. :smoking:

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

But you're filling in where there are no descriptions. You're assuming that because some characters are described with dark skin, all others must not have it. Yet only some characters are described with pale skin, too, so then why not assume that everyone not described is neither (mixed ethnicities, non-Andal, non-Summer Islander)? We also have gone over multiple times how diverse KL and other parts of Martin's world are, and how that absolutely fits with 12,000 years of history and at least several hundred years* of trade across the Narrow Sea, so....

We also know the history of Westeros: the children of the forest ("dark and beautiful") invaded by the First Men (no actual physical description, but they introduced horses to the continent - could they be related to proto-Dothraki? it's possible) invaded by Andals ("tall and fair-haired", the first people so described). Many of the children were wiped out, but the blood of the First Men is still claimed to be stronger in some places than others.

Also also, the people in the world (ours or Martin's) are not just either black or white, skin-wise, or if you want to define a stereotypical set of features that way. There are other races and mixed races too, which is where this whole thing started.

* This is if you assume no trade existed before Aegon's Conquest, but I think that's unlikely. How long before then did Nymeria invade and unite Dorne? I see reference to the Valyrian expansion 700 years prior which cost 250,000 their lives, but I'm not sure if that's when Nymeria led her fleet across. In either case, it wasn't random; they knew that Westeros existed and where it was.

[Padraig]

I just think that Raul was not being racist by feeling like the show should look a certain way, for the most part i agree with him.

You don't.

Kings landing SHOULD have a smattering of different races, and i dont see a problem with davos being some kind of mix

This idea would upset him hugely.

Read his posts. This discussion began with the idea that Davos didn't have to be white and Lord Raul interpreted that to mean that half of Westeros would look African and Asian. It was funny for a while.

[Lord Raul]

You don't.

This idea would upset him hugely.

Read his posts. This discussion began with the idea that Davos didn't have to be white and Lord Raul interpreted that to mean that half of Westeros would look African and Asian. It was funny for a while.

Are you using a translator or something? Because I never said that half of Westeros should be black, there will be a few Summer Islanders in Kings Landing, a few. Davos should not be black because he is not described as being black, and if he were there would be a reference about him having blood from the Summer Isles.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Are you using a translator or something? Because I never said that half of Westeros should be black, there will be a few Summer Islanders in Kings Landing, a few. Davos should not be black because he is not described as being black, and if he were there would be a reference about him having blood from the Summer Isles.

I think your belief that the ONLY black people in Martin's world are from the Summer Isles is what is getting you into trouble here. Mr Martin never wrote that. Mr Martin meant that those on the Summer Isles have VERY dark skin, but that does NOT preclude there being MANY other people, from other places, who also have dark skin. Mr. Martin even MENTIONS that many a character has "dark skin".

And even the science for your claim is wrong; as I wrote upthread, the evolutionary pressure to adapt white skin did NOT really exist on Martin's world due to the years long summers. So, for THAT reason also, I would expect there to be MANY dark skinned people in Westeros. I know Mr Martin is not a scientist and did not write to in conform with biology, but the science aspect as well speaks against you.

[Spastic Plastic]

Res Ipsa, let's not go to the other extreme.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

Res Ipsa, let's not go to the other extreme.

I did not intend to give the impression that I was going the other end of the race spectra here. Sorry if thats how it came across.

And thanks also for the clarification about "exotics" not necessarily referring to medieval peoples beliefs that black people were exotic pets; it was mildly entertaining to realize I read into your post MY view of the term "exotic", as I DO keep pets people may call exotics.

[Padraig]

Because I never said that half of Westeros should be black

:lol: I know. Read what I said again. You have argued as if other people were making this claim.

Davos should not be black because he is not described as being black

And as I said before: I don't particularly care about staying true to characteristics that don't affect the plot. Your rampant fears in this respect are...interesting.

Edited to add: And I see I missed a whole thread...so this is sort of redundant.