The Judging Eye VIII (spoilers)

[aimlessgun]

We can't assume Kellhus' POV is completely trustworthy. You don't have to edit much of his recounting to make the scene plausible. He's surrounded by a confusion of adoring followers. He's been given a linen cloth. He's an amazingly fast manipulator of people. As far as I can remember, he is the only one to describe the heart as 'burning', and we have no reason to think it isn't a metaphor.

It is no less plausible than a supernatural explanation.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I had absolutely no recollection of Inrau's confrontation with the Shrial Knight. Does this happen right before Aurang as Sythese ends him?

And damn, I can't believe I'd never even considered why the Synthese attacked Inrau. Or I guess I'd just assumed it was because Aurang is Consult and Inrau is/was Mandate, but perhaps it was specifically related to Inrau snooping around Maithanet's stuff???

Yes, that's the scene. However, the Synthese actually doesn't want to kill Inrau, apparently. Inrau is not killed by the Synthese - he actually does commit suicide. Right before he does so, the Synthese tells him that it can inflict the "Agonies" upon him, and releases him (at least momentarily).

That said, the Synthese is well aware of Inrau's activities and seems to want to question him. I believe this is why Inrau committed suicide, although the Consult already knew what Akka was up to and whom he'd had contact with (as evident by Esmi's soon-to-come encounter with Sarcellus.

Inrau is spying on Maithanet for the Mandate. He now knows they are colluding with the scarlet spires against the chishurim and the consult are involved. He's all fucked up about it, and pretty much understands that he is damned for it. The spiritual pain he feels is related to this, rather than any discovery. I noticed a complete lack of urgency or need to tell Akka about some kind of discovery.

The consult are watching Akka, so they know all about Inrau and he is simply being removed from the plate.

But Inrau is not killed by the Consult - he commits suicide. I agree with most of the rest of what you're saying, but I think the whole encounter with Inrau was accidental. After all, the godhouse seems to be deserted aside from them, and Inrau actually has to seek out the sound of wings to find the Synthese and Sarcellus.

That kind of 'heart ripping' sorcery would still cause a mark and could be seen by the few.

Happy Ent does have a defensible theory. If Kellhus himself did it, he would likely have been unconciously using the Psukhe or something like it. That's the only way it can fit with the metaphysics of magic as developed. That kind of sorcery, whilst not leaving a 'mark', depends upon emotive interpretations of god's meanings - indicating that Kellhus' benificence and tears are not faked in that scene and also that Kellhus doesn't really know what he did there, 'cause he hasn't used that power again.

I think HappyEnts theory is the best I've read so far. I just thought it was interesting that we have a scene of Inrau doing much the same thing using the Gnosis. I'm not sure about the Mark, though - Akka tells Kellhus in TWP that there is a certain level of sorcery that one can perform before becoming vulnerable to Chorae. Perhaps this is a level below which very little or no Mark will appear (this is pure speculation, btw, not based on anything I've read).

WrathOfMe, I am noticing a lot more references and allusions to Onkis, the copper tree, the emptiness of unpopulated areas and godly immanence etc this time round. Could be just cause I'm actively looking for it. What do you think?

There are indeed many references to unpopulated regions and vivid descriptions of trees throughout the books, the most notable being Kellhus's description of twigs during his journey from Ishual to Leweth's cabin (and a mirroring scene in TTT). Soon after the chapter with Inrau above, Akka is journeying from Sumna to Momemn through an old, abandoned province of the Nansurium. The following caught my eye:

While waiting for the water to boil, he studied his surroundings: the nearby pillars of Batathent soaring into the morning sky; the lonely trees, dark above rambling scrub and dead grasses....

The pillars, to me, are a lot like the wilderness that Kellhus encounters; a forest, but of manmade origins.

[Curethan]

I can agree with that, aimlessgun.

Either way, its the point where Kellhus' PoV becomes unreliable I think.

Agree that the consult wanted to mindrape or otherwise use Inrau, Wrath.

Interesting aside, the Copper Tree is both Onkis' symbol and the symbol of the Siol mansion.

eta. another interesting bit from where I'm up to in TDTCB, when Esme first leaves Sumna:

The cold was iron hard, the spaces endless. The darkness was crisp, as though scraped of sight and smell by winter's razor. So different from the humid mark of Sumna, where inky sensations stained everything. Here in the cold and dark, the parchment of the world was blank. Here, it seemed, was where it all started.

She at once savoured and shuddered at the thought. The Consult, Achamian had once told her, believed much the same thing.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Tagging off of that quote, Curethan, I'm seeing that so far into the reread (I'm about in the same place as you) it seems that the scenes involving the Consult invoke the "empty" feel of the Ancient North. Akka goes into the ruined fortress to think. Esmi reflects upon the "blank parchment" of the world in front of her and the Consult. Inrau encounters them in an isolated and abandoned temple. Geshrunni is overtaken by the skinspy in an empty stretch of Carythusal.

I can't think of any more examples off the top of my head, but it's remarkably consistent thus far.

[Madness]

Just wanted to weigh in a little.

First off, I disagree Cantabile. That part with Serwe's heart is too much of a crux for the story for Bakker to be undecided on what is going on there. I don't think it is sorcery, I barely believe that bit about Kellhus reaching into the Outside, and I don't really believe that any God plopped the heart into his hand. However, something important happened.

As for the whole Inrau and Consult meet up.

I think those parts that Inrau is ruminating about the Shriah refer to Inrau beginning to believe Achamian's suspicions of Maithanet. Every quote that WraithOfMe brings up can easily be explained by Inrau not wanting to believe Akka and wishing that he had no love for his old teacher because then Inrau might just be able to deny him. I never read those passages as anything more than the Consult watching Achamian's contacts - Inrau commits suicide because he's expecting Akka to know he wouldn't have commited suicide and hoping he'll realize that it was the Consult. Not what happens. I certainly don't believe that Moenghus or Maithanet joined the Consult, or neccessarily that Inrau found anything definite out about Maithanet.

I still say that a very, very important topic for speculation is what kind of network Moenghus and thus, Maithanet, has access to. What did they do for thirty years besides get Maithanet as Shriah and start the Holy War? What happened to the Sect of Cishaurim that were trained under some of the Dunyanic principles?

Also, Bakker said that on Three Seas that the tree imagery was really, really important to the overall plot lines.

[Shryke]

FYI, it was the Consult who really pushed for the Holy War. Not sure how much Moenghus and Maithenet we're involved in pushing to see it happen, although they certainly anticipated and used it and helped it along.

And Inrau's comments about doubting Maithanet are based on the conversation he has right before that scene where Akka and Esme do a pretty good job of convincing him something is up with Maithanet because he knows too much. This seriously rattles Inrau, which is why we see him as he is in the next (and his last) scene.

However, looking over it now, there do seem to be hints that it may be about something else. There's references to him sneaking into the Shriah's apartments, although I don't know if that happened earlier or between the 2 scenes.

[Madness]

Moenghus and Maithanet are absolutely responsible for the Holy War, not the Consult. Yes, the Consult wants the Holy War to happen and does their best to convince the peoples they need to to join. Take Skaeos and Istrya - both Skin Spies are adament about Xerius not screwing the Holy War. It's just a bunch of correspondence of cause. The Cishaurim attack the Scarlet Spires because of the Skin Spies. The Consult understand so little of the Psuhke that they think it's responsible for undercovering their Skin Spies in Kian. The Scarlet Spires join the Holy War to kill the Cishaurim. Moenghus and Maithanet absolutely are responsible for the Holy War - to pave the way for Moenghus' son, a full blooded Dunyain with all of his sensual abilities, which Moenghus seems to think is necessary for fighting the Consult.

I agree with your second paragraph though, Shryke.

[Shryke]

Just to make sure that I have it right, this is because they have realized that their doppleganger skin spies are being discovered, they suspect the Cishaurim, and don't realizes that it's actually Moe (who, while technically is Cish is really Dunyain in this context). Do I have that right?

Yes.

And Madness, you cannot discount the Consult's hand in this. We know they believe it's the Cishaurim who are unconvering their Skin Spies and we know the Holy War is their solution to that problem. Even to the end they see the Holy War as THEIR tool and thus they must have had a large and active hand in seeing it come about.

Maithanet and Moenghus merely predicted their reaction and helped it along to meet their own goals. They would obviously have some hand in seeing it come about, but the Consult definitely did alot because they still think they were the ones who came up with the idea in the first place.

[aimlessgun]

There isn't enough text to make it more than speculation. The only things we are explicitly told/show vis the origins of the Holy War are that Maitha showed up out of the blue, kicked ass, took names, managed to win power over a previously dissolute, decentralized and corrupt temple apparat, and then made his big Holy War announcement, backed by powerful personal followers of his such as Proyas.

[Curethan]

The consult are following Akka because they want to know about the chishurim (because of Moe kidnapping their skin spies). That's why they start following him at Carthysal. They definately want to harness the holy war to uncover Moe (according to Moe this is all part of his plan) for them it is initially very important the holy war succeed. Maithanet would have had to play a very sharp game around them imo.

Oh yeh, another interesting thing on the reread. Fairly sure Conphas spent four years as prisoner of the same Fanim dude that shelters Moe, so there is the possibility Moe worked him over (perhaps with the dunyain hypno trance). Considering Moe's swazond collection I'm sure Conphas would have been interested in him.

[Madness]

Yes, Triskele. Cnaiur and Kellhus both refer to the thought processes that the Consult doesn't realize about the Dunyain or that they should be worried about Kellhus, not Moenghus or the Cishaurim . I understand that the characters POV's are subjective but I'm using them as evidence.

Shryke, the Consult would have to be retarded to think that they own the Holy War. Think of how their agents barely control the Nansur, the main relevant force to control. I mean, Conphas would have suceeded in fucking up the Holy War had Achamian not randomly stepped in. Saubon would have been late.

Surely, the Consult might suspect that they are the "masterminds" of any possible conspiracy but remember that in TTT, Moenghus tells Kellhus that the Thousandfold Thought revealed to him absolutely everything that was going to happen, up to and including Kellhus' "prophet" status and all the dissension and events in Caraskand. The Prince of Nothing may be Kellhus but that series is from beginning to end, the tale of Moenghus' manipulations, the true extent of even a wounded Dunyain's manipulation. He wasn't even as capable as Kellhus yet he is absolutely the sum of all events, which is the main reason to me, that Kellhus says Moenghus will come to believe he is damned and will join the Consult, because Moenghus alone was morally responsible for the Holy War and it's bloodletting.

EDIT:

Curethan, the Consult is following Achamian as they are following all the Mandate's agents. We just happen to enjoy the story from it's random main characters because it's fiction and we're paying attention to the relevant people in the world - as Esmenet says, those at the heart of the World's turning. I'm sure the Consult would want to keep complete tabs on the Mandate, especially as they were still openly fighting the Mangaecca as far south as Atrithau, until the new Tekne creation of the Skin- Spies, only three hundred years before the PON.

[Shryke]

Yes, Triskele. Cnaiur and Kellhus both refer to the thought processes that the Consult doesn't realize about the Dunyain or that they should be worried about Kellhus, not Moenghus or the Cishaurim . I understand that the characters POV's are subjective but I'm using them as evidence.

Shryke, the Consult would have to be retarded to think that they own the Holy War. Think of how their agents barely control the Nansur, the main relevant force to control. I mean, Conphas would have suceeded in fucking up the Holy War had Achamian not randomly stepped in. Saubon would have been late.

Surely, the Consult might suspect that they are the "masterminds" of any possible conspiracy but remember that in TTT, Moenghus tells Kellhus that the Thousandfold Thought revealed to him absolutely everything that was going to happen, up to and including Kellhus' "prophet" status and all the dissension and events in Caraskand. The Prince of Nothing may be Kellhus but that series is from beginning to end, the tale of Moenghus' manipulations, the true extent of even a wounded Dunyain's manipulation. He wasn't even as capable as Kellhus yet he is absolutely the sum of all events, which is the main reason to me, that Kellhus says Moenghus will come to believe he is damned and will join the Consult, because Moenghus alone was morally responsible for the Holy War and it's bloodletting.

EDIT:

Curethan, the Consult is following Achamian as they are following all the Mandate's agents. We just happen to enjoy the story from it's random main characters because it's fiction and we're paying attention to the relevant people in the world - as Esmenet says, those at the heart of the World's turning. I'm sure the Consult would want to keep complete tabs on the Mandate, especially as they were still openly fighting the Mangaecca as far south as Atrithau, until the new Tekne creation of the Skin- Spies, only three hundred years before the PON.

Just because they aren't in complete control doesn't mean they don't see it as their tool. They don't care that much about how it works, so long as it makes it to Shimeh and murders the ever loving shit out of the Cishaurim. This is clear in the series right through till TTT. Even after discovering the Dunyain, they still insist the Holy War must continue.

The key thing here though is, they wouldn't feel as confident in the Holy War's purpose as they do if they hadn't felt they were the ones mostly in control of it. Maithanet and Moenghus hand in creating it had to be a subtle one beacuse otherwise the Consult would have noticed and they would have displayed a very different attitude towards the whole thing.

Regardless of who was actually pulling strings or anticipating moves here, The Consult had to have had a large hand in the Holy War's creation because they see it as THEIR tool and not someone elses. They never think that it might be the tool of some other force, which means that other force which we know exists had to be subtle enough to avoid their notice.

[Madness]

I don't really disagree with anything you've said there. I would almost say we're on the same page except you seem to disagree with me.

My big point, though, is Moenghus is the only one who could have really changed or affected the outcome of the Holy War because he anticipated everyone, including the Consults, reaction. He didn't have to do much more than a few things, everyone did as he predicted and Kellhus made it to Kyudea to hear Moenghus' words.

I realize that the Consult more or less thinks of the Holy War as their tool; as do the Scarlet Spires, the Ikurei, the Inrithi, even to some extent Kian and the Fanim.

I think it is just awesomely huge that Moenghus is the ultimate "planner." Or so I believe.

[lokisnow]

And I again reiterate my belief that Inrau did not suicide, it just looked like he did. He's the only schoolman it would make sense to join akka in WLW.

The lead in to Inrau's synthese encounter is indeed fascinating. He could have very well seen Moe doing a face sending consultation with Maitha (which we see Moe do for the Emperor as well) and concluded that the Shriah was colluding with the Cisharum.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Moe is still alive, actually is powerful in Psukhe, and was never in the dungeon with Kell, and a face sender was killed.

[aimlessgun]

Er...why would everyone think he was dead if there wasn't a body? Also to term Inrau a 'schoolman' is a stretch.

Regardless of who was actually pulling strings or anticipating moves here, The Consult had to have had a large hand in the Holy War's creation because they see it as THEIR tool and not someone elses. They never think that it might be the tool of some other force, which means that other force which we know exists had to be subtle enough to avoid their notice.

You're basically assuming that Maitha tricked them into thinking he was their tool, which is possible, but never referenced. I don't see how the Consult could think they owned the Holy War otherwise.