The Judging Eye VIII (spoilers)

[Piper]

Random question: Hand or wrist halos/haloes? WTF are hand halos? Does this have a real-world precedent? A precedent within Earwa? Has Akka seen the halos and, if so, does he ever think about them after he comes to believe Kellhus is a fraud?

I believe that Inri Sejenus was depicted with haloed hands; the mosaic floor in the old, abandoned temple where Akka, Kel, Esmi and Serwe spend the night in TWP (where Kellhus tells Saboun to punish the Shrial Knights) is of a halo-handed Sejenus.

[aimlessgun]

Random question: Hand or wrist halos/haloes? WTF are hand halos? Does this have a real-world precedent? A precedent within Earwa? Has Akka seen the halos and, if so, does he ever think about them after he comes to believe Kellhus is a fraud?

The hand of God in early middle ages art was often haloed.

In blessing forms the hand often has a halo, which also may provide a convenient termination point. This may or may not be a cruciform halo, indicating the divinity, and specifically the Logos, or Pre-existing Christ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_God_%28art%29

[Shryke]

To my knowledge there's nothing different about nonmen Quya and Mandate Gnosis save the Seswathan ritual. Akka recognizes the spells that are cast and has his own names for them - though that might be more to do with his knowledge of nonmen than of him actually knowing what they are.

I figure they're largely the same, though Quya is likely a bit more refined.

The Quya use a different language too. But it's mostly the same.

[Finn]

I believe that Inri Sejenus was depicted with haloed hands; the mosaic floor in the old, abandoned temple where Akka, Kel, Esmi and Serwe spend the night in TWP (where Kellhus tells Saboun to punish the Shrial Knights) is of a halo-handed Sejenus.

The hand of God in early middle ages art was often haloed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_God_%28art%29

Ah. Thanks to you both!

[Kalbear]

The Quya use a different language too. But it's mostly the same.

Actually, doesn't the Gnosis specifically use the nonmen language because it's anchored and not prone to semantic drift?

[Shryke]

Actually, doesn't the Gnosis specifically use the nonmen language because it's anchored and not prone to semantic drift?

Actually your right, they do use the same dialect. It's the Anagogic schools that use a debased version of that language.

That TDTCB includes a freaking language tree always seemed ridiculous to me at the time, but it's actually really useful.

[Rhadamanth]

Lol @ Rhamadanth.

Cnaiur is finished, dead to this fiction.

It makes me think about Bakker's assertion of another Dunyain in the series, implied a full-blooded female.

Cnaiur might never show up again but why would Bakker leave him alive like that at the end of TTT? He could have easily had him commit suicide like Cnaiur was thinking of doing.

I always wondered if Kellhus had any other kids since it seems likely that the Dunyain would want to save his bloodline since Kelly was supposedly better than all the other Dunyain kids. A female Dunyain would be hilarious.

[Borque]

Mind you, the one time we saw a witch cast a spell in The Judging Eye was the time that the Yatwer woman (Psammateri?) turned off a spy that had infiltrated their meeting and the spell conjured the image of a cyclopean wall (an analogy rather than an essence?).

I suspect some Swayals, at least some of those taught from scratch, use the Gnosis. Others, those who already were practising sorcery before the School was founded, are Anagogic.

Or, it could be a matter of aptitude. The Anagogis seems easier to learn.

[aimlessgun]

The hand of God in early middle ages art was often haloed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_God_%28art%29

Has this been discussed before btw? Comparing and contrasting the Dunyain Logos vs. the Christian Logos? Because it's pretty clear that Bakker is referencing the Christian Logos with the hand halos, and I bet its deeper than some simple "well Kellhus traded a rationalist ahtiest logos for a more religious bent".

[Kalbear]

I don't think it's been particularly discussed because, well, it was clear that Bakker was aping virtually everything about the Crusades in the first series, including the christian views.

We'll see if he's aping everything about LotR in the second.

[Nerdanel]

I've been thinking about the haloed hands. I've long been bothered about them and I've finally developed a theory to explain them.

The basis of this idea is that gods can influence human (and other) souls. This can often mean things like making thoughts pop up in people's heads, but more overt effects are also possible. A god can influence only some people; for example Yatwer could influence Psatma Nannaferi but not Kellhus. The degree of influence also varies, so that most people's connection to gods has a low signal-to-noise ratio while prophets are those with a clear channel to their deity.

In the case of the hand haloes, I think the No-God wants people to see Kellhus as a prophet and co-opts the Inrithi religious imagery to that purpose. As faith appears to be related to the degree of influence a god has, the No-God also makes Kellhus himself see the haloes and believe in his own prophethood. The first one to see the haloes was the gullible Serwë who already held Kellhus in high esteem. Achamian's sporadic visions of haloes reflect his soul's accessibility hovering at the edge where the effect could manifest.

The reason why Serwë saw haloes around the hands of the the skin-spy that was disguised as Kellhus was that the No-God decided to show them even if it wasn't the real Kellhus. We can guess that he chose to do so since the skin-spy was going to be able to pass as Kellhus anyway, haloes or no haloes, and the No-God wanted to keep Kellhus's perceived holiness up, not knowing that the skin-spy was going to get exposed when it did.

[unJon]

Actually, doesn't the Gnosis specifically use the nonmen language because it's anchored and not prone to semantic drift?

My recollection is that the important thing is that the language not be the native tongue of the sorceror, so that the words don't have all of the pre-conceived meanings and connotations. Both the Gnosis and Quyan use non-man tongues, but I thought that they were different dialects. I think there is an appendix that answers this question at the back of one of the books (TWP maybe?). Don't have them in front of me.

[Curethan]

The gnosis was developed by the Quya for the existing anagogic sorcerers during the tutelage. To assume it is the sum of their knowledge seems unwise. Non-men and men are very different when it somes to metaphysics and physical abilities from available evidence so I would doubt very much that Gnostic and Quyan sorcery are the same.

Re: Logos. I would suggest it's usage is based on the Stoic philosophers' definition. The christians basicly picked it up from them, from what I recall, applying it to the gospel of John wherein God is the word that ignited creation.

[Rhadamanth]

I seem to remember some mention of there being variations between some of the spells. I think Akka mentions this somewhere.

Edit: I think Curethan has this right.

[Madness]

I like to think in terms of millenia. The Nonmen of Ishterebinth, one of my old favorites, is a factor yet to be unleashed in this tale. The appendix excerpt for the Nonmen, I think, parallels my musings quite well. They've been sitting there for two thousand years, working on sorcery and other techniques to keep themselves sane. Considering the much, much longer Quyan history, I would think that Nonmen Gnosis beats human Gnosis.

Btw, since someone corrected my hastily suggested Nonmen skin-spy - not a good speculation on my part - are we to simply assume that the Consult have Erratics in Isterebinth? Aurang suggests in PON that he has a good eye in the Mansion.

[Kalbear]

I don't think that the nonmen allied with the Consult have to be erratics. For that matter, I don't think it's clear that nonmen have to be able to use sorcery. Not all nonmen are erratics. Just those that have gone kind of insane.

[Shryke]

The gnosis was developed by the Quya for the existing anagogic sorcerers during the tutelage. To assume it is the sum of their knowledge seems unwise. Non-men and men are very different when it somes to metaphysics and physical abilities from available evidence so I would doubt very much that Gnostic and Quyan sorcery are the same.

Yeah, I think they definitely have differences. If for no other reason then the 2 species do think very differently, as Achamian talks about briefly in TJE. This could lead to issues teaching them sorcery and the like. Also, the Quya could easily have held a bunch back.

[Kalbear]

Well, the point of using nonmen language is that you don't think differently. You think the same way using the same words that have exactly the same meaning. That's why it's gnosis, and not anagnosis.

[Madness]

I didn't try and suggest that all Nonmen were sorcerers. Clearly, they had their own caste system, with the Ishroi and, I feel like I'm forgetting a third one besides this, Siqu - which was really just a Nonmen word for teacher, I think.

However, I would definitely argue that no sane Nonman would willingly join the Consult. I hazard that all working for the Consult are Erratic but not all Erratics work for the Consult.

[anor277]

.........................

However, I would definitely argue that no sane Nonman would willingly join the Consult. I hazard that all working for the Consult are Erratic but not all Erratics work for the Consult.

And the only erratic we know of (M), fought for and against the Consult. In TJE Achamian advised how incredibly dangerous these individuals were, as they were addicted to trauma and violence. And this was a legacy from Seswatha's experience as well. "Trust only the thieves among them".

Just on the question of Consult spies in Ishterebinth (which we know are present), it would be ridiculously easy for them to replace a human slave with a skin-spy (and the Non-Men must still have human slaves, who else would do the hewing of wood and drawing of water?).