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eschaton

On language in Westeros...

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Reading Tyrion's chapters in AGOT...

Mountain's clansmen called

Dolf=similar to the name Adolf

Ulf=similar to the name Alfred

Torrek=Tor (Thor) and Rek (King).

So presumably the Mountain clans spoke/speak some sort of Germanic language too.

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Reading Tyrion's chapters in AGOT...

Mountain's clansmen called

Dolf=similar to the name Adolf

Ulf=similar to the name Alfred

Torrek=Tor (Thor) and Rek (King).

So presumably the Mountain clans spoke/speak some sort of Germanic language too.

Naah... you got that wrong...

Ulf is actually a name in Anglosaxon as well as a word, it means "wolf" so you avoid the "comparison", it's plain simple.

And "Dolf" can't be from Adolf, because it comes from Ad + wulf.

I don't think "Torrek" comes from "Thor" as they would have kept the "th" if they were germanic.

You are reading too much into it, I don't think Martin even knew these similarities when he used the names, he just wrote names which sounded like Mountain clans. This doesn't mean they spoke a germanic language.

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Naah... you got that wrong...

Ulf is actually a name in Anglosaxon as well as a word, it means "wolf" so you avoid the "comparison", it's plain simple.

And "Dolf" can't be from Adolf, because it comes from Ad + wulf.

I don't think "Torrek" comes from "Thor" as they would have kept the "th" if they were germanic.

You are reading too much into it, I don't think Martin even knew these similarities when he used the names, he just wrote names which sounded like Mountain clans. This doesn't mean they spoke a germanic language.

didn't someone tell me earlier that Tormund meant protection of Thor?

Like Mund means hand/protection and Tor meant Thor?

Have since found out that

Dalla (the wife of Mance Rayder) is very similar to a Germanic name Della which means "Noble".

Shae is a real name it's Gaelic for "Supplanter" since Shae was an Andal in the books (no mention of her being Lyseni/foreign in the books unlike the Tv show which gives her a foreign accent).

Also Sulwen is Welsh for "White Sun" and is very similar to Selwyn which is the name of Brienne's father. Brianna is Welsh for "Noble Strong"...

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didn't someone tell me earlier that Tormund meant protection of Thor?

Like Mund means hand/protection and Tor meant Thor?

Have since found out that

Dalla (the wife of Mance Rayder) is very similar to a Germanic name Della which means "Noble".

Shae is a real name it's Gaelic for "Supplanter" since Shae was an Andal in the books (no mention of her being Lyseni/foreign in the books unlike the Tv show which gives her a foreign accent).

Also Sulwen is Welsh for "White Sun" and is very similar to Selwyn which is the name of Brienne's father. Brianna is Welsh for "Noble Strong"...

Yeah, that was me. I said "it could be derived from..." not that it is. Also, again, it could in a language that didn't have "th", for example in Spanish oftenly they render "Thor" as "Tor" because they pronounce it the same, but in English and Norse languages it is pronounced "th" as in "think".

Dalla could mean all sorts of things... it could be derived from germanic "dale". I don't know that "Della" name but it could be derived in any case from "Athel" in Old English means noble if it is "Adela" but this is a norman name, I think...

Sulwen I found it for you, could come from Welsh Sulgwyn, which means "Whitsunday" not "white Sun",

Brianna can only be a fem. counterpart of Brian, right? In any case, don't look at "baby-names books", check this: http://www.behindthename.com/ way better!

In any case, Brian's etymology is unknown, but supposed to be derived from "bre" in welsh means "hill", other terms realted can be "brenin" "king", "bri" "honour, renown". Nothing of "noble strong".

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Yeah, that was me. I said "it could be derived from..." not that it is. Also, again, it could in a language that didn't have "th", for example in Spanish oftenly they render "Thor" as "Tor" because they pronounce it the same, but in English and Norse languages it is pronounced "th" as in "think".

Dalla could mean all sorts of things... it could be derived from germanic "dale". I don't know that "Della" name but it could be derived in any case from "Athel" in Old English means noble if it is "Adela" but this is a norman name, I think...

Sulwen I found it for you, could come from Welsh Sulgwyn, which means "Whitsunday" not "white Sun",

Brianna can only be a fem. counterpart of Brian, right? In any case, don't look at "baby-names books", check this: http://www.behindthename.com/ way better!

In any case, Brian's etymology is unknown, but supposed to be derived from "bre" in welsh means "hill", other terms realted can be "brenin" "king", "bri" "honour, renown". Nothing of "noble strong".

But still a Celtic name! yay!

Weren't the Normans originally Vikings (Scandinavians)?, names like Adela, Adelhide, Adelburga, Alice are all related to nobility and all derive from a Germanic language.

Also anybody with knowledge of linguistics or any member of the celtic language family (Gaelic, Manx, Welsh, Cornish) etc would be most appreciated if they answered my question on yahoo?

http://au.answers.ya...06041931AAcxSaW

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About the Celtic that says little. It's not that those names are Celtic, but rather the Celtic version of other names, which is not the same. Which is more "Celtic" Sean or Brandon?

The Nromans were not vikings, they were germanic in origin and that accounts for their names. Vikings were not a people, they were merely scandinavian pirates. They are not more a people or culture than, let's say, privateers.

About the last question a lot of things are missing. You say The welsh Eglwys is from greek, but it is actually more likely to be derived from the english derivation of the french derivation of the greek ekklesia, that wouls account for cc becoming g. Also you don't say the period when the word would be taken... That would change a great deal, and finally you don't show the actual greek word or its origin. Greek has no 'y', so, how is the original greek word? What is its origin? When would it hypothetically been acquired?

It looks to me as a modern greek word. But you tell me.

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I think this is probably the right answer. We should certainly, certainly expect widly differing accents as in Britain - and Westeros is far, far bigger than Britain.

I do remember something about recognising someone (Gendry perhaps) as a King Landinger.

I expect we'll see much more of this in the HBO series. Particularly Northern English accents for The Northerners (Sean Bean has kept his Sheffield accent it seems) which would suit perfectly, and south-east/'BBC English' for the Lannisters et al.

I would have liked them to have used the Welsh accents for the Lannisters used in the audio book of Game of Thrones but that's wishful thinking and probably gives the wrong connotations.

I was just going to respond to the Sean Bean/Northerner comment. I'm from near Leeds (about half an hour north of Sheffield) and my accent is nothing like his, so it's not just variation within the country but within county's as well. For example my friend is from Sheffield and she says right good and reet bad whereas I, who am also from Yorkshire, would say really good and really bad.

Well, English is now a pretty common language - not everyone speaks it, but a lot do. And lots of people spoke Latin in ancient times.

My big problem is that there would be a basically unchanging language for 1000's of years that Sam could read in books - I mean, english from 700 years ago is basically a different language than english today.

I would presume with Sam being highborn he would have had an education in old languages

What I always wondered is how Melisandre a 'slave' speaks the common tongue and no one seems to notice that she has a strange accent (well she does in my head anyway)

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About the Celtic that says little. It's not that those names are Celtic, but rather the Celtic version of other names, which is not the same. Which is more "Celtic" Sean or Brandon?

The Nromans were not vikings, they were germanic in origin and that accounts for their names. Vikings were not a people, they were merely scandinavian pirates. They are not more a people or culture than, let's say, privateers.

About the last question a lot of things are missing. You say The welsh Eglwys is from greek, but it is actually more likely to be derived from the english derivation of the french derivation of the greek ekklesia, that wouls account for cc becoming g. Also you don't say the period when the word would be taken... That would change a great deal, and finally you don't show the actual greek word or its origin. Greek has no 'y', so, how is the original greek word? What is its origin? When would it hypothetically been acquired?

It looks to me as a modern greek word. But you tell me.

Well going with the idea that the Common Tongue is some sort of Celtic Language, and the Valyrian is some sort of Greek Language tha fulfills the function that Latin did in Medieval society...

So in such a world, the word for sonnet wouldn't be Sonet, because Italian wouldn't exist, instead it would derive from the Greek Trayodaki (atleast that's how my Greek friend spelt it)....

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Well going with the idea that the Common Tongue is some sort of Celtic Language, and the Valyrian is some sort of Greek Language tha fulfills the function that Latin did in Medieval society...

So in such a world, the word for sonnet wouldn't be Sonet, because Italian wouldn't exist, instead it would derive from the Greek Trayodaki (atleast that's how my Greek friend spelt it)....

Lol... Let's pretend that's a valid premise, which is not, because for that matter such words as those derived from French in English shouldn't exist either, and yet they do. Sonnet could appear in the books, doesn't matter if it is Italian.

But to keep with the idea of deriving such a word... First of all let me decipher what is the word. Your friend gave you, most likely, a modern greek word, which is as unlikely as an Italian word. There no nouns in Ancient Greek ending in -i, so I conclude it must be an 'eta' pronounced 'i' in Modern Greek. I'm guessing the word must come from greek 'tragodia', from which "tragedy" is derived. The word must be τραγωδία and the modern term could be τραγωδακη or τραγωδακι, since I think -ki is a diminutive in Modern Greek, but not certain, I specialize in Ancient Greek not Modern.

In any case it's a derivation upon a derivation because Modern Greek already has changes as compared to Ancient Greek, for instance the word should be rendered 'tragodake', and that could give all sorts of derivates, but... The only problem is the word does not appear in my Greek dictionary, that is Ancient Greek diciontary, so it probably a modern coinage, doubt that it would get to the 'Celtic' world. It could give tregodag, tregodach, treigodaich... I don't know... Tregwdag? Lol... Very weird.

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Lol... Let's pretend that's a valid premise, which is not, because for that matter such words as those derived from French in English shouldn't exist either, and yet they do. Sonnet could appear in the books, doesn't matter if it is Italian.

But to keep with the idea of deriving such a word... First of all let me decipher what is the word. Your friend gave you, most likely, a modern greek word, which is as unlikely as an Italian word. There no nouns in Ancient Greek ending in -i, so I conclude it must be an 'eta' pronounced 'i' in Modern Greek. I'm guessing the word must come from greek 'tragodia', from which "tragedy" is derived. The word must be τραγωδία and the modern term could be τραγωδακη or τραγωδακι, since I think -ki is a diminutive in Modern Greek, but not certain, I specialize in Ancient Greek not Modern.

In any case it's a derivation upon a derivation because Modern Greek already has changes as compared to Ancient Greek, for instance the word should be rendered 'tragodake', and that could give all sorts of derivates, but... The only problem is the word does not appear in my Greek dictionary, that is Ancient Greek diciontary, so it

probably a modern coinage, doubt that it would get to the 'Celtic' world. It could give tregodag, tregodach, treigodaich... I don't know... Tregwdag? Lol... Very weird.

Yeah, my other friend who only knows Greek Via the Melikite Greek Catholic Church gave me the word tragodia. I figured that since he was basing his word off the Ancient Greek (that is used in Church liturgy), that the modern Greek word that my Greek friend gave me would be more appropriate.

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As I said... Valyrian is not exactly Greek and I think such a word wouldn't be adequate in Valyrian... Their phonotactics are very very different as I've said. Maybe ey would use some valyrian term used for poetry, and this would be invented.

I would rather use 'lay' or 'lay' for that purpose.

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As I said... Valyrian is not exactly Greek and I think such a word wouldn't be adequate in Valyrian... Their phonotactics are very very different as I've said. Maybe ey would use some valyrian term used for poetry, and this would be invented.

I would rather use 'lay' or 'lay' for that purpose.

Well the High Valyrian of the Freehold of Valyria, it would probably be Trayodaeci.

But for the Pentoshi dialect of the early 3rd Century AL, trayodaki would be about right.

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Well the High Valyrian of the Freehold of Valyria, it would probably be Trayodaeci.

But for the Pentoshi dialect of the early 3rd Century AL, trayodaki would be about right.

Why? The word valonqar has nothing to do with any word in greek for brother. It's invented. Also why 'trayodaeci' is there evidence that valyrian has words ending in -ci? You are mixing stuff withno reason...

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Why? The word valonqar has nothing to do with any word in greek for brother. It's invented. Also why 'trayodaeci' is there evidence that valyrian has words ending in -ci? You are mixing stuff withno reason...

/ci/ sounds sort of soft and gentle...

It doesn't have to be a precise science

Also

Dotearhya Hamhalkharzyas Enaentyas Andonys

Second Philippic Against Antony

Only Hamhalkharz instead of Philip.

Since Latin grammer sounds about right, what case should everything be in?

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'ci' only spunds /si/ in some languages like English, Spanish, French, etc. But in Latin it would sound /ki/ and in Italian /chi/.

I don't understand. You invented that sentence? You seem to like very long words. Also making many 'ae' and 'ea' doesn't quite make a language, you toss too many 'y's and 'h's as well.

Your question is what grammatic case would each word be in? Most probably 'second' would be an adjective in the nominative as well as 'philippic' a nounized adjective from a name in nominative, then 'against' is a preposition or conjuction that would trigger either accusative or genitive depending on the language. I don't even know if ending in -rz would be valid in Valyrian. The words you brought forth for 'second' and 'against' seem too long to me.

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'ci' only spunds /si/ in some languages like English, Spanish, French, etc. But in Latin it would sound /ki/ and in Italian /chi/.

I don't understand. You invented that sentence? You seem to like very long words. Also making many 'ae' and 'ea' doesn't quite make a language, you toss too many 'y's and 'h's as well.

Your question is what grammatic case would each word be in? Most probably 'second' would be an adjective in the nominative as well as 'philippic' a nounized adjective from a name in nominative, then 'against' is a preposition or conjuction that would trigger either accusative or genitive depending on the language. I don't even know if ending in -rz would be valid in Valyrian. The words you brought forth for 'second' and 'against' seem too long to me.

truthfully when I took them from google translate and greek letter transliterate, they were perfectly normal Greek words.

Just added in a few /ae/ and /ys/ etc to make it sound more Valyrian.

Hamhalkhraz I sort of took from the Phoenician name Hamilcar, which means brother/friend of Melqart, but changed it around to make it sound more Ghiscari (by adding in H and Z and R and Kh)

It was originally going to be Faraaso (which is from Faras, Swhahili for horse, and as you know Swahili was one of the languages used to create Dothraki) but then I figured that the Dothraki are a post fall of Valyria scourge that wouldn't have been around in the time of Demosthenes equivalent...

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Demosthenes

Also if the Valyrian for Serve is Dohaeris, what might the Valyrian for Duty or Obligations be? I would love an answer on how to create a new word from that.

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Also if the Valyrian for Serve is Dohaeris, what might the Valyrian for Duty or Obligations be? I would love an answer on how to create a new word from that.

Well, nice question, but I think you'll be disappointed with the answer. That question is similar to asking "how many limbs would an alien have?"

There's no real answer, just educated guesses, and in this case... not even that. We don't know much about Valyrian, and that is vital for the question at hand. We don't know if it uses suffixes or prefixes to form nouns (I'm leaning towards suffixes) and we don't know that many other nouns either. One we do know is "valonqar" but considering that "brother" in English is special in itself... I don't know how useful this is.

The word could come from 'dohaeris" but may come from somewhere else... but what you are wondering is "servitude" or "service" rather than "duty" or "obligations". You could think the verb root is "dohaer-" which seems likely, and words could end in -r in Valyrian... similar to English eye, to eye. Or it could need a suppletive ending... maybe "dohaerar"... we can't know from the scant evidence of Valyrian. Maybe the verb derives from the noun, maybe the noun from the verb. It could even have some change in phonology ... maybe the noun is "dohar" with verb "dohaer-" it happens in English.

Also note that "dohaeris" is not "serve"... it is "they serve"... we do not know if the -is indicates 3rd person plural present tense. We have no reason to think that it behaves like English in not having tense and agent markers.

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Well, nice question, but I think you'll be disappointed with the answer. That question is similar to asking "how many limbs would an alien have?"

There's no real answer, just educated guesses, and in this case... not even that. We don't know much about Valyrian, and that is vital for the question at hand. We don't know if it uses suffixes or prefixes to form nouns (I'm leaning towards suffixes) and we don't know that many other nouns either. One we do know is "valonqar" but considering that "brother" in English is special in itself... I don't know how useful this is.

The word could come from 'dohaeris" but may come from somewhere else... but what you are wondering is "servitude" or "service" rather than "duty" or "obligations". You could think the verb root is "dohaer-" which seems likely, and words could end in -r in Valyrian... similar to English eye, to eye. Or it could need a suppletive ending... maybe "dohaerar"... we can't know from the scant evidence of Valyrian. Maybe the verb derives from the noun, maybe the noun from the verb. It could even have some change in phonology ... maybe the noun is "dohar" with verb "dohaer-" it happens in English.

Also note that "dohaeris" is not "serve"... it is "they serve"... we do not know if the -is indicates 3rd person plural present tense. We have no reason to think that it behaves like English in not having tense and agent markers.

I guess it would be "On Duties" or on "On Obligations" in the same way that Cicero meant them.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/De_Officiis

Hmn well I know how to create

In arabic (or any semitic language really) if you wish to create a new word, you just figure it out from the the 3 letter root.

KTB, kataba (he wrote)

kitaab (book)

maktab (office)

writer/clerk (kaatib)

library (maktaba)

so if Valyrian were like arabic then it would go

dahara (he served)

dihaar (a thing that is served???)

madhar (a place where one serves)

daahir (a person who serves)

madhara (a place where lots of serving things are found???)

now this doesn't sound a thing like Valyrian, but sounds an awful like Arabic (or maybe Ghiscari has this gramatical structure but has differen consonants)

Valyrian seems to place a lot of importance on vowels, which Arabic doesn't. This makes Valyrian more indo-European, although I think that can be attributed to Valyrian exhibiting traits of Generic Elf Language..

I would say if i were creating Valyrian that it has Greek phonology (sounds like Rh and names like Aegon) and latin grammar and not that weird greek capacity to create massively long words (why are greek words so long, I mean it's not like it's an agglutinating langauge?)

and all the vowelyness of generic elf language:P

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I'm sure this hasn't been dealt with in the books, but maybe it's been answered elsewhere.

It seems odd to me that all of Westeros (aside from some people beyond the wall) speaks the same language. I'm guessing Westerosi was introduced by the Andal invaders, but if that were the case the North should at least in part have kept the old language as well, given they kept the old religion.

Given the size of Westeros, it's odd as well there is really little discussion of regional dialects, which presumably would be much greater than English. I *think* there might have been some mention of the dialects of the mountain tribes being odd, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Anyone know more?

Remember, Aegon the Conquerer invaded Westeros 300 years ago. I would assume that northerners learned the common language over time through marrying southerners and their children speaking the common language from the time they're born. Remember, the series takes place several generations after the Andals conquered Westeros.

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Yet even with the common language, a Lingua Franca does not remove all other languages. Latin was the Lingua Franca of Europe for generations, but that did not mean that the French, Germans, Spanish, and Italians spoke only latin. Each had their own languages, and like in Westeros, there was an immense dialectic difference from village to village. More importantly, there was a continuum. If you went from a village in Southern Spain and then to the next and the next until you got to the French border, you would understand each one quite easily as the differences were slight. Take the first and the last ones only, however, and they are almost unintelligible. The concept of a truly centralized language did not come about until the 1600s or so.

So the lack of language variation really has to do a lot more with him not wanting to deal with it than anything else.

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