Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys

Is Tyrion a Rapist?

Recommended Posts

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

Good questions. Hard questions.

I think Tyrion knew Tysha was not a willing participant. He says as much when he tells the story to Bronn, IIRC.

I don't think the murder of Shae was acceptable. Even though I kind of understand why he did it (I think). In terms of her "betraying" him---she was a whore--he knew that (he chose to forget it by that does not make it not true)--I think when he fell it was to be expected she would take off. She could have done it in a kinder way. But she was a whore--it would have been unbelievable if she would have risked her life for Tyrion once he fell from power.

The murder of Tywin I am more OK with. Bugger had it coming really. Still it makes Tyrion a kinslayer and I think it has doomed him. And it was murder.

Pretty sure there will be a very wide variety of opinions on the way though in response to these questions!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about the Tysha question. I think I'd need to reread where he tells the story to Bronn. For Shae, I don't think he had much choice but to kill her as she could have hindered his escape, but I do feel sorry for Shae on some level too. As for Tywin his death was one of my favorite parts of the third book. He really had it coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jamie tells tyrion at the end of asos that tysha was no whore. She was a crofters daughter who actually loved tyrion. Tywin convinced jamie that she was interested in tyrion because of the gold and that made her a whore. It is not inconceivable that tysha and tyrion will meet again because jamie says that she is still alive!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

I mean, I don't think Tyrion had any illusions about Tysha as a "willing" participant. Although I don't think he was necessarily in control of that situation either. It seems to me that Tywin is pretty much in complete control there. Tyrion is scarred by the experience, and while I wouldn't go so far to say that this was a sexual assault on him by his father nearly as much as it is a sexual assault on Tysha by him, I can't help but at least partially victimize him. If he were a better man, though, a stronger one, he would not have participated in Tysha's rape.

Tyrion's murder of Shae was wrong, but an act of passion. Murder 2, maybe even Manslaughter 1.

As has been said, Tywin had it coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Regarding Shae's death -- I think there was a strong component of wounded male vanity. especially after her public "giant of Lannister" comment. Tyrion had come to trust her and went to all sorts of trouble to keep her close, hidden, and in luxury in King's Landing. Hearing her testimony irevealing their most intimate pillow talk must have seemed a terrible betrayal and worse humiliation.

Anyway, isn't it interesting to be reminded that no GOT character is totally shiny white or darkest black. Looks like Tyrion's character is changing under all this stress. He's usually a cool head, but he really lost it with Shae and Tywin, acting out of passion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Rape? No.

From what he says to Bronn, I'd take it he saw her as a whore who had been paid to service the whole garrison and then him. If she wasn't responsive, well, she'd been bedded by a hundred men beforehand, I'd think she was hardly even coherent by that time.

I'd say Tyrion might think what he was doing was wrong or something to that note, but not knowingly rape.

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

Should he have killed her? No. Shae didn't deserve to die, no more than anyone else. She was self-serving and humiliated him, but even then, for smallfolk there's no much of a chance at improving one's lot, and she took hers.

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

On a personal level, yes. Tywin is a horrible human being, if only for his mistreatment of Tyrion, and he certainly deserved to die for that.

But that's not the whole story of Tywin; given the fact he might have been the only man capable of, and in the place for, holding the Seven Kingdoms together, thus preventing the reign of madness and chaos Cersei begot and maybe actually stabilising Westeros...No his death was not acceptable.

But really, he brought it on himself. If for nothing else than taunting Tyrion while he pointed a loaded crossbow at him. That alone shows how he never respected or even really acknowledged Tyrion.

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

A fundamentally good, but deeply damaged, person unable to express his love romantically would be the best way to put it.

Tyrion is more than happy to be both just and good when he wants to. Add a woman into the mix and he becomes jealous, aggressive and murderous. But I suppose such is the lot of many men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just reread the passage in AGoT where Tyrion confesses to Bronn about the Tysha "incident" (as it is often called.) I'll quote the passage:

"First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze into darkness.

"Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." p. 383

Rereading this passage, I was struck by two things.

First, though I initially assumed that what happened to Tysha was clearly rape, one could argue that this passage is, in fact, ambiguous. Did Tyrion really think Tysha was okay with it? Or did he, as I've always suspected, realize that she did not want this, and this was just something his father was doing to humiliate her and himself? If the second is true, then Tyrion knew that Tysha was unwilling, and he (Tyrion) is guilty of rape.

Secondly, though Jaime clearly lied to Tyrion about Tysha being a whore, it is unclear if he knew in advance about Tywin's plan to have Tysha gang raped. If he didn't know about Tywin's plan, and he just agreed to lie to Tyrion in the belief that nothing worse than a breakup between his brother and Tysha would result from his deception, then I don't really think Jaime did anything truly evil here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

He thought she was a willing participant, that Tywin was telling the truth and that she was being paid to do all that.

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

She deserved it. The way she humiliated and betrayed him was pretty bad, regardless of her profession. And how in the hell could he kill Tywin if she was still alive?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

Deserved it as well. More than anyone he killed.

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

They did to him nothing comparable to what Shae and Tywin did.

He may not be a saint, but he isn't a Joffrey or a Sandor that will kill or hurt people just for the heck of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just reread the passage in AGoT where Tyrion confesses to Bronn about the Tysha "incident" (as it is often called.) I'll quote the passage:

"First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..." The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze into darkness.

"Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." p. 383

Rereading this passage, I was struck by two things.

First, though I initially assumed that what happened to Tysha was clearly rape, one could argue that this passage is, in fact, ambiguous. Did Tyrion really think Tysha was okay with it? Or did he, as I've always suspected, realize that she did not want this, and this was just something his father was doing to humiliate her and himself? If the second is true, then Tyrion knew that Tysha was unwilling, and he (Tyrion) is guilty of rape.

I assumed it was the first.

Or, if not that. That Tysha was a whore being paid for her services. Maybe she changed her mind or whatever, but she was being paid for her services nonetheless. In Tyrion's mind, he clearly didn't consider that Jaime was lying to him.

Maybe he thought that Tysha changed her mind (if he thinks this at all) at seeing him watch, or at the number of guardsmen, or something else.

I took his eyes stinging and all that (aside from the obvious fire thing) as being his heartache at the event. This was the girl he loved afterall, and watched he be done by man after man would be hurtful regardless of anything else. Not only that, but there's real damage to his pride and self-esteem at play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

I took it as him thinking she willing screwed all those guys.

I don't think it was acceptable. He went batshit insane

I think Tywin's Muder was way more acceptable than Shae's since he treated Tyrion like dirt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Tyrion is mending his memories a lot, so it is no safe call what he actually thought in the actual situation. But later he remembers it to be a rape, even when he still thinks her to be a whore.

On the other hand, that lesson by Tywin really taught him something. He often "suffers" from sexual fantasies regarding all the beautiful women around him, but he no longer commits (blunt physical) rape even when it would be really easy and socially acceptable.

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

Shae was of course justified. Tyrion on the other hand was expected to be really angry at her. Still murder.

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

Murder as for Tyrion. Suicide by stupidity as far as Tywin is concerned. That means Tyrion is fully responsible for the action, but Tywin's life assurance will still not pay.

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

He needs a psychoanalysis and fast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always read the gang rape scene as, well, gang rape, even believing that Tysha really was a whore. Prostitute!=un-rapeable. Whatever it was she had been hired for (and until Jaimes confession, I really did believe she was a whore. Honestly, its a bit cloying othewise, though really it just laying the woobie on Tyrion so thick either way that I can't help but roll my eyes a bit) it was obvious to me that it didn't involve gang rape by the entire garrison. By that point she was simply being bodily hauled about by some Lannister guards and not in any way or shape there of her own volition. That she had some coins stuffed into her hands at the end makes this no less rape than Gregors rape of the tavern keepers daughter.

That Tyrion went along with it dosen't say much for him at all, though I do agree he was probably under threat of violence, not to mention the whole history of a lifetime of abuse to the point of, like, stockholm syndrome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Shae, I don't think he had much choice but to kill her as she could have hindered his escape, [...]

Huh? What prevented him from turning around, going back down the ladder, and leaving?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Regarding Shae's death -- I think there was a strong component of wounded male vanity. especially after her public "giant of Lannister" comment. Tyrion had come to trust her and went to all sorts of trouble to keep her close, hidden, and in luxury in King's Landing. Hearing her testimony irevealing their most intimate pillow talk must have seemed a terrible betrayal and worse humiliation.

Tyrion's a canny figure who prides himself on his cynicism and good judgement, so when he's cuckolded like this it's not surprising that he takes it very badly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I never understood about the gang scene with Tysha is how we're never told how Tysha is reacting to everything. I would think, if she really was a crofter's daughter, that she'd been crying and protesting. Who knows? Maybe Tywin gave her some milk of the poppy (an opioid, I'm assuming, like morphine) so she'd just be calm and sedated and mostly lay there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Tyrion is a rapist for what he did to Tysha. He just watch the woman be gang raped by his father's garrison. Then, with coersion from his Dad he joined in. That was rape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Tyrion is a rapist for what he did to Tysha. He just watch the woman be gang raped by his father's garrison. Then, with coersion from his Dad he joined in. That was rape.

He was forced to do it , and he was lied to and told she was being paid to do it. A paid prostitute.

If you think someone is a willing prostitute , how can you be accused of rape ? It would be like going to a bake sale , the Baker telling you the cookies are free to sample , and after you eat one the cops arrest you for shop-lifting. Does that really make you a thief ??

I'm sure , under the circumstances and given the entire story , Tysha would understand why Tyrion did it and forgive him. .. and her's is the only opinion that would matter in the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think someone is a willing prostitute , how can you be accused of rape ? It would be like going to a bake sale , the Baker telling you the cookies are free to sample , and after you eat one the cops arrest you for shop-lifting. Does that really make you a thief ??

Are you serious?? Besides, your comparison is strange. Still wrong, but more accurately, it should go like this. The baker tells you to have one free cookie. Which you take. Later, you break into his shop and steal all his products. THEN you are arrested for shop-lifting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I never understood about the gang scene with Tysha is how we're never told how Tysha is reacting to everything. I would think, if she really was a crofter's daughter, that she'd been crying and protesting. Who knows? Maybe Tywin gave her some milk of the poppy (an opioid, I'm assuming, like morphine) so she'd just be calm and sedated and mostly lay there.

Tyrion's memories of the events are selective and self-centred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×