Is Tyrion a Rapist?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

If you think someone is a willing prostitute , how can you be accused of rape ? It would be like going to a bake sale , the Baker telling you the cookies are free to sample , and after you eat one the cops arrest you for shop-lifting. Does that really make you a thief ??

Of course you can rape a prostitute. Just like any woman, she has to consent to the sex, and you throwing money at her does not count as consent. You are definitely not allowed to "sample the goods" simply because they are up for sale.

I think that Tyrion's deep personal shame indicates he knew what he did was non-consensual/rape, even if he can't quite put the pieces together himself.

It's interesting to see the actual text from the scene, it is really telling that Tyrion doens't say anything about how Tysha is reacting. I suppose he probably blocked out her cries of pain. That, or she was drugged heavily by Tywin. In any case she clearly can't consent here.

I'm sure, under the circumstances and given the entire story , Tysha would understand why Tyrion did it and forgive him. .. and her's is the only opinion that would matter in the situation.

You are right her opinion is the one that matters here. But consider it from her perspective for a moment, and ask yourself if you would forgive.

You are an innocent girl, who is saved from brigands, and then is treated gently and lovingly by a young, innocent lordling, and then wed to him.

Then the next week, your husband turns you over to his father to be gang raped and called a whore, and then rapes you himself, and never sees you again.

That's pretty unforgivable.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Huh? What prevented him from turning around, going back down the ladder, and leaving?

She could have called out for the guards, since she would have been watching Tyrion, she would have been able to tell them exactly where he entered the secret passage. In fact she might already know where it was herself since Varys took her up it several times. Even if he just knocked Shae unconscious, it'd be difficult to predict when she'd again consciousness, and the guards could be alerted and make their escape from King's Landing more complicated. How much time passed before Tywin's body was found in AFFC?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Shae deserved to die....back-stabbing money-grubbing whore .

She totally played him false the entire time, and then humilated him in public. ( Did she have to say the "giant of Lannister in trial" ? really ? )

Tyrion thought she was one of the only friends he had in the city , one of the only people he could trust , and she betrayed him. I'd have done the same thing . Bitch...

:thumbsup:

I bet you love Bronn though! :rolleyes:

Tyrion KNEW that Shae was a prostitute, as much as he KNEW Bronn was a mercenary. He KNEW either was up for purchase by the highest bidder. And yet he immediately forgives Bronn, but murders Shae.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

He was forced to do it , and he was lied to and told she was being paid to do it. A paid prostitute.

If you think someone is a willing prostitute , how can you be accused of rape ? It would be like going to a bake sale , the Baker telling you the cookies are free to sample , and after you eat one the cops arrest you for shop-lifting. Does that really make you a thief ??

I'm sure , under the circumstances and given the entire story , Tysha would understand why Tyrion did it and forgive him. .. and her's is the only opinion that would matter in the situation.

I think the human level is where the metaphor breaks down. I don't think it's fair to say Tysha would -- or should -- forgive any of her rapists, cognizant or not.

[vlada]

I bet you love Bronn though! :rolleyes:

Tyrion KNEW that Shae was a prostitute, as much as he KNEW Bronn was a mercenary. He KNEW either was up for purchase by the highest bidder. And yet he immediately forgives Bronn, but murders Shae.

Bronn only refused to fight for him(he already saved his life once didn't he?).Shae openly lied,providing enough evidence to have him executed,and had him mocked in front of entire court.Plus that little thing with Tivin.I don't really think that Bronn and Shae are comparable here.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Yes, I'm not sure you can say Tyrion was 'betrayed' by Bronn, and comparing him to Shae is tricky. Nevertheless, Tyrion is totally deluded and has a complex about whores, which likely led to him murdering Shae.

People should remember that Tyrion was still a boy at the time of Tysha's rape. He was very much controlled by his overbearing father at the time (which plays into Tywin's murder also). I find it difficult to place too much blame on him.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Bronn only refused to fight for him(he already saved his life once didn't he?).Shae openly lied,providing enough evidence to have him executed,and had him mocked in front of entire court.Plus that little thing with Tivin.I don't really think that Bronn and Shae are comparable here.

Once it was clear that Tyrion was going down, Shae had to choose to switch allegience to Cersei/Tywin or to go down with him. As for her "testimony", that was a kangaroo court and what Shae said had no bearing on the outcome. I am sure that she was there under threat of her life, and was also promised the riches Tyrion never managed to get for her (despite many promises). What would you do in her situation?

Bronn was bought out by Tywin and Cersei at the beginning of aSoS (he was given a lordship (!!!) to ensure his cooperation). After Tyrion woke up from his injuries, Bronn cut off almost all contact - I am sure it was an explicit part of the deal from Cersei and Tywin that he no longer support Tyrion in any way. Bronn had been complicit in Tyrion's downfall for so long that there was no need for more "active" interference on his part.

And what "little thing" with Tywin? Sleeping with him? That's her job. Bronn was now a sworn sword to the Royals/Lannisters - would Tyrion begrudge Bronn fighting for them instead of him? I don't think so.

[Lady Winter Rose]

"...at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she..."

I notice that when I first read it, but that scene was so described like rape, that I almost forgot that. Would she holding coins while being raped?

But, then we have unfinished statemant, when his voice broke down. Or when he just tried to hide his tears. Is that when he meant to tell something crucial? :dunno:

I think she wants money, she was golddigger and Tywin and her made some deal.

Tyrion is murder and kinslayer and could be rapist, but we are not sure.

[Cereal Forel]

Regarding Shae... while Tyrion was obviously wrong in killing her, I've always placed the blame more on Tywin for her death.

You have to remember that Jaime has just told Tyrion the awful truth about Tysha, which naturally puts Tyrion on a murderous rampage to go kill his father. He comes into his room and finds the last person who he would ever think to find in his father's bed. Not only is she a whore, whom Tywin supposedly detests, she was his whore who pretended to love him and then betrayed him (though I think she was right in doing so, obviously). That's a terrible combination.

1. Tywin hates whores, and it's one of the things he's constantly abusing Tyrion over

2. Tywin claimed Tysha was a whore when she wasn't

3. Tyrion finds Shae, of all people, in Tywin's bed when he goes to kill him, wearing the "hands" necklace that she always wore around Tyrion.

If that's not a crime of passion I don't know what is.

[ogbebaba]

Regarding Shae... while Tyrion was obviously wrong in killing her, I've always placed the blame more on Tywin for her death.

You have to remember that Jaime has just told Tyrion the awful truth about Tysha, which naturally puts Tyrion on a murderous rampage to go kill his father. He comes into his room and finds the last person who he would ever think to find in his father's bed. Not only is she a whore, whom Tywin supposedly detests, she was his whore who pretended to love him and then betrayed him (though I think she was right in doing so, obviously). That's a terrible combination.

1. Tywin hates whores, and it's one of the things he's constantly abusing Tyrion over

2. Tywin claimed Tysha was a whore when she wasn't

3. Tyrion finds Shae, of all people, in Tywin's bed when he goes to kill him, wearing the "hands" necklace that she always wore around Tyrion.

If that's not a crime of passion I don't know what is.

add to that the fact that she lied about him in a trial of life and death so basically she tried to kill him he just returned the favor

[Radio Changes]

I really don't think Tyrion could ever rape someone.

[Alexia]

I really don't think Tyrion could ever rape someone.

And yet he grabbed Cersei's arm and credibly threatened to break it if her men came any closer...and strangled a struggling woman to death....

Not only that, but credible threat of force is what is needed. The threat doesn't have to come from Tyrion himself.

[Datepalm]

I notice that when I first read it, but that scene was so described like rape, that I almost forgot that. Would she holding coins while being raped?

But, then we have unfinished statemant, when his voice broke down. Or when he just tried to hide his tears. Is that when he meant to tell something crucial? :dunno:

I think she wants money, she was golddigger and Tywin and her made some deal.

My impression of the whole scene (which we only get recounted by Tyrion, a ten year old, extremely traumatic memory) is that Tysha is pretty much shell shocked by the end of it, not to mention probably physically badly battered as well. Thats the 'coins slipping through her fingers'.

No way in any hell, nor in any comprehensibly reading of the text we actually have, with or without Jaimes confession, way Tysha's gang rape a rational economic act of commerce in a free fucking market. Tyrion gets a very slight amount of slack for being a kid and being bullied into it himself. Tywin is just a monster, not to mention the participating guardsmen and Jaime, if he was involved further.

[Radio Changes]

And yet he grabbed Cersei's arm and credibly threatened to break it if her men came any closer...and strangled a struggling woman to death....

Not only that, but credible threat of force is what is needed. The threat doesn't have to come from Tyrion himself.

Okay, so is noone willing to excuse him lashing out at a sister who tortured him and is Queen Bitch numero uno, and has been one of the biggest malevolent forces in Tyrion's life growing up, and killing what he considered a lover, naive as he was, in a fit of passionate rage? That makes him a rapist and a terrible person? Kinslayer, sure, murderer, sure, but calling him a rapist implies he's this malevolent force, which he plainly isn't. And I'm willing to excuse the Tysha incident.

[vlada]

Once it was clear that Tyrion was going down, Shae had to choose to switch allegience to Cersei/Tywin or to go down with him. As for her "testimony", that was a kangaroo court and what Shae said had no bearing on the outcome. I am sure that she was there under threat of her life, and was also promised the riches Tyrion never managed to get for her (despite many promises). What would you do in her situation?

Well if it was kangaroo court why was she even there testifying?Aside from Lady Merryweather nobody openly accuses him of killing Joffrey,it's all speculative.Plus that Lannister giant thing?Was that really necessary on her part?Don't think so.

While you can argue(and with good point,too)that she did what she had to do to stay alive,well you can also say he had to kill her to stay alive.Not that I don't think she didn't get what was coming for her.

Bronn was bought out by Tywin and Cersei at the beginning of aSoS (he was given a lordship (!!!) to ensure his cooperation). After Tyrion woke up from his injuries, Bronn cut off almost all contact - I am sure it was an explicit part of the deal from Cersei and Tywin that he no longer support Tyrion in any way. Bronn had been complicit in Tyrion's downfall for so long that there was no need for more "active" interference on his part.

Are we reading the same books here?He was not given lordship,he was knighted for the bravery in battle.Now that's not the same thing.He did not cut his ties with Tyrion,he continued to serve him(that singer,Silvertongue could confirm you that if he had not been chopped to pieces and fed to the poor in Flea Bottom by that same Bronn on Tyrion's orders).When the trial began he left Tyrion,to marry Lollise,still not being given lordship even though now he is de facto ruller of Stokeworth in sharp contrast with Cersei wishes.

He was bought off,sure,but neither he is Cersei's ally,neither he had absolutely anything with Tyrion's downfall.And who knows if he would even defeat Gregor.

Why wasn't Bronn the one to testify?He knew a lot,and could lie about much more.

nd what "little thing" with Tywin? Sleeping with him? That's her job. Bronn was now a sworn sword to the Royals/Lannisters - would Tyrion begrudge Bronn fighting for them instead of him? I don't think so.

Well you do understand that's not only sex we're talking here right?Woman you love,betrays you,and the next thing you do you find her in your fathers bed?Not to mention you hate your father and are about to kill him.So,it's not just sleeping with some random dude for pocket change case.

And like I said above.Bronn isn't sworn to Lannisters.Bronn is only sworn to himself.And I don't recall Bronn fighting against Tyrion or for Lannisters other then Tyrion himself.

[Alexia]

Okay, so is noone willing to excuse him lashing out at a sister who tortured him and is Queen Bitch numero uno, and has been one of the biggest malevolent forces in Tyrion's life growing up, and killing what he considered a lover, naive as he was, in a fit of passionate rage? That makes him a rapist and a terrible person? Kinslayer, sure, murderer, sure, but calling him a rapist implies he's this malevolent force, which he plainly isn't. And I'm willing to excuse the Tysha incident.

You said he wasn't capable of rape, which seemed to imply that he was physically incapable of forcing somebody. The book clearly shows that he has the physical strength to do so. Pardon if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

As for the "Tysha incident" it was rape, plain and simple. I do consider Tyrion something of a victim as well due to his age and the fact that he didn't want to do it, but it was still rape, he was still a participant in a gang rape, and he is still a rapist. Moreover, he is deeply ashamed of what he participated in and has never claimed that he didn't rape her.

And besides,

ADWD spoilers follow:

Even if one were to excuse Tyrion for the Tysha incident, based on mitigating factors, there is STILL the cruel rape of Illyrio's slave girl. Tyrion manages to take what should have been a (somewhat) consensual encounter and deliberately terrorize an innocent girl in a very malevolent way. After reading that chapter, any qualms I may have had about the term "rapist" were completely swept away.

Well you do understand that's not only sex we're talking here right?Woman you love,betrays you,and the next thing you do you find her in your fathers bed?Not to mention you hate your father and are about to kill him.So,it's not just sleeping with some random dude for pocket change case.

So some crazy guy falls in "love" with a prostitute he is paying to service him and is therefore justified in murdering her for taking on another client, in particular if he hates the client and plans to murder him. That makes perfect sense!

*Nods head firmly*

[vlada]

So some crazy guy falls in "love" with a prostitute he is paying to service him and is therefore justified in murdering her for taking on another client, in particular if he hates the client and plans to murder him. That makes perfect sense!

*Nods head firmly*

O wow,sarcasm has entered the building.

If you read carefully what you quoted,all that I wrote was that it's not just the case of switching customers here.Tyrion flipped,as many people would.That doesn't make it justified.

What does make it justified is the fact that she did lie to get him killed.

[Inglorious Pencil]

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

I'll just quote Datepalm on this:

I've always read the gang rape scene as, well, gang rape, even believing that Tysha really was a whore. Prostitute!=un-rapeable. Whatever it was she had been hired for (and until Jaimes confession, I really did believe she was a whore. Honestly, its a bit cloying othewise, though really it just laying the woobie on Tyrion so thick either way that I can't help but roll my eyes a bit) it was obvious to me that it didn't involve gang rape by the entire garrison. By that point she was simply being bodily hauled about by some Lannister guards and not in any way or shape there of her own volition. That she had some coins stuffed into her hands at the end makes this no less rape than Gregors rape of the tavern keepers daughter.

That Tyrion went along with it dosen't say much for him at all, though I do agree he was probably under threat of violence, not to mention the whole history of a lifetime of abuse to the point of, like, stockholm syndrome.

I'd also add that, in AFfC, Cersei tells the story of how Tywin publicly humiliated his late father's mistress (whom he allegedly found wearing Joanna's jewels and clothes) by having her go around naked in Lannisport, declaring herself a whore, for a fortnight. This was probably a well known tale in Casterly Rock, and Tywin was famous for his dislike of whores - even a young and relatively naive Tyrion would have probably understood that giving Tysha to his men wasn't a business transaction for Tywin, the sexual humiliation and abuse were deliberate. It's a weird situation because Tyrion is coerced and abused into coercing and abuse someone else, so one could argue that he is both guilty and a victim here, but I think Tysha is 100% victim in this story.

[Miriel]

He was forced to do it , and he was lied to and told she was being paid to do it. A paid prostitute.

If you think someone is a willing prostitute , how can you be accused of rape ? It would be like going to a bake sale , the Baker telling you the cookies are free to sample , and after you eat one the cops arrest you for shop-lifting. Does that really make you a thief ??

I'm sure , under the circumstances and given the entire story , Tysha would understand why Tyrion did it and forgive him. .. and her's is the only opinion that would matter in the situation.

Are you serious?? Besides, your comparison is strange. Still wrong, but more accurately, it should go like this. The baker tells you to have one free cookie. Which you take. Later, you break into his shop and steal all his products. THEN you are arrested for shop-lifting.

To be truly apt, the comparison should go like this: The owner of the bakery the baker works at offers free cookies, you break in, take cookies, then beat baker almost to death. Owner however is unharmed. Are you a thief? Probably not. Are you guilty of assault? Yes. Does the offer of free cookies mitigate this even a little bit? NO.

We are talking gang rape here. A extremely violent crime some women do not survive. Money in her hands or not, she almost certainly did not consent to sex with the entire barracks .

[Yarl Snow]

Carried over from the "Jaime Lannister" thread...

Major questions under consideration were:

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

I think many are forgetting Tywin's influence on Tyrion's actions. Tywin is cruel and intelligent, the Hand of the Mad King for god's sake, the very same man who ordered children killed and King's Landing sacked. Tyrion was in his early teens, and at the mercy of his older brother and father.

Tyrion fell in love with Tysha, and was later told that she had betrayed him and married him for his money, this "truth" backed up by Jaime. It was a plausible story, and I have no doubt Tyrion believed it. Tywin's action towards Tysha would have been seen as punishment in Tyrion's eyes. You do not cross Tywin Lannister, even by proxy of his dwarf son.

Tyrion would see this as Tywin standing up for him and house Lannister by punishing a "golddigger", in other words: rape. I have no doubt that Tyrion realized this. He must have seen it as his father being who he is. On the other hand, it is clear that this "justice" was hard on Tyrion, he does not have the callous heart of Tywin Lannister.

Did Tyrion have to comply with the command to "take" Tysha? We don't know. What would have happened if he refused? What further harm would have come to Tysha or Tyrion? Tyrion at this point would be broken and confused, and with raging hormones of a teenager. Girls may not be aware, and some of the men may have forgotten, but the penis does have a will of its own when you are 14.

So why the tears after all this time? Obviously Tyrion experienced something with Tysha that was lost forever, that, as far as he knows, never existed at all. Is he crying for the girl he imagined, or for the suspicion that she really did love him - i.e. that same slight hope and blissful ignorance he always feels when he sleeps with whores. Does he cry for his involvement in her punishment, the punishment he on the one hand thinks was somewhat justified, but on the other hand feels was cruel. Does he cry for the loss of his own innocense?

Consider The Rains of Castamere. Cross Tywin Lannister, and this is what you get. That lesson is driven home throughout the book. Aerys, Elia of Dorne, Robb Stark, Tyrion. Tywin berates Tyrion for sleeping with whores, but in the end, Tyrion finds out that Tywin does not live up to his own ideals. Tywin sleeps with whores himself, and he lied about Tysha.

Shae IS Tysha from the fake scenario, in Tyrion's eyes. She is the one who really betrayed him, while Tysha was the real deal. Shae told a great many lies that helped convict Tyrion for regicide. In all the logical aspects, she IS the golddigger, even as she now sleeps with Tywin. But I believe she did hold Tyrion in some regard, and he was wrong in killing her. What we are seeing is Tyrion burning bridges. He denounces his brother, kills his loved one, kills his father and runs away. He turns his vengeance toward those who spat on him and tried to kill him. I do not see this as unjustified behaviour. Wrong though it might be, Tyrion is acting from a position of threadbare power: He only has his own physical strength and the element of surprise. Any mistake, and he will be killed. He cannot let Tywin or Shae live.

I take it some people are comparing Bronn and Shae and saying they did the same thing. This is not true. Bronn was still on Tyrion's side, in a way, but there was nothing he could do except throw his life away. I believe Bronn says something like "I like you well enough, ugly whoreson that you are, but I will not throw my life away for you." Shae betrayed and humiliated Tyrion, probably under duress. They were not in the same position, and so it is not a fair comparison. No one forced Bronn to testify against Tyrion. If they had, he would probably have betrayed Tyrion too. But they did not, and so Bronn never betrayed Tyrion. And thus, Tyrion has no cause to hate Bronn. True, Tyrion could have thought "Ok, Shae betrayed me, but she had to." But in Bronn's case, it would be "Ok, Bronn didn't help me, because he could not."

I think if Tyrion had found Bronn naked in Tywin's bed - absurd a picture as that might be - that he would have killed him too, if Bronn had testified against Tyrion, lied and ridiculed him in public. So those of you who paint out Tyrion to be sexist should probably think again.

How do we reconcile Tyrion's good acts with the murder of Shae and the punishment of Tysha? Tyrion is clearly not a "good" person. A good person would not have climbed those ladders up into Tywin's room, because that would put him in the position where he would likely have to kill someone. On the other hand, Tyrion is in this position because he has been railroaded. His actions against Tysha would never have happened if not for Jaime and Tywin. Similarly, Shae would not have been killed if Tywin had not made her betray Tyrion. Tyrion is learning that being good does not matter, and the world is unfair and hates him. Unlike many teenagers of today, this is not merely suspicion or deluded thinking on Tyrion's part - he has many valid reasons to think so: His father has many times told him all but outright that he hates and despises him, and the "world" (i.e. a great many people) has testified against him and convicted him of something he did not do.

In other words, Tyrion's good acts are those things he does when he is free to pursue his own wishes, and the bad deeds are born out of frustration and betrayal. When Tyrion was asked to rape Sansa, he did not, even though he easily could have.