Is Tyrion a Rapist?

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion and Shae remained a 'whore-customer-relationship' although both of them obviously wanted more. Shae wanted to be taken seriously as a person and a human being, and Tyrion wanted to be loved. But he would have been the person who would have to had make the first step into that direction. It is there that he often wanted to tell her that he really, really loved her, but somehow he could not. Because of Tysha. And because of his family and his background which would have made it impossible to enter into a real relationship.

It is understandable that a person like Tyrion, a person with his issues about his physical appearance, would not have the strength to discuss said issues and his deepest feelings and desires with a person he desired as much as Tyrion desired Tyrion. That is the tragic of the whole Tysha business. She was real. She loved him, and was taken away from him. The most important thing for Tyrion always was to be accepted as a person despite being what he was. Tysha did that, and his father took her away.

Tyrion did not go up in the Tower of the Hand to kill his father. He wanted to know where Tysha was. He wanted to find her again, most likely to apologize and to make amends for his (unforgivable) mistake. Most likely Tyrion had killed Tywin anyway, but what triggered his decision to go up there was the fact that this was his last opportunity to learn the truth about her.

I'm pretty sure that Tywin somewhat hated sex/whores/women in a certain aspect, or had at least a complicated, twisted relationship to these things. Like Tywin's children, Tywin himself was very much shaped by the relationship to his father, and as Tywin did not want to see something of himself in Tyrion, he most certainly did not want to be like his father Tytos. But apparently all these Lannister men (and Jaime) are somewhat alike. Tytos was openly submissive so that his bannermen took advantage of his weaknesses. Tywin over-compensated that by making his public appearance as unyielded as Casterly Rock itself - but in private he still was lead around by women. At least, as far as we know by his wife, Joanna. And this is interesting. If Shae in Tywin's bed is supposed to tell us anything then that Tyrion and Tywin have the same taste in women, and like to play the same games (including giving some baseborn whore the chain of office of the Hand of the King to play with during their games). Of course Tywin is much more twisted in his sexual preferences than Tyrion, as he apparently really likes it fuck the whore of the son he has just sentenced to death. I'm not sure if any sane person out there would find that, ah, stimulating.

Anyway, Tywin was never as strong or inhuman as he made people (including his own family) believe he was, but it was his greatest fear to appear less than perfect as his - in his eyes - weak father apparently did not care that much about the honor of the appearance of House Lannister. It might be that Tytos was just more of a nice guy rather than a complete failure as a Lord, and Tywin really over-reacted in getting the feeling to right these wrongs his house had to suffer. Sure, the Reynes and Tarbecks had to be put back into place, but exterminating all of them might have been a little bit over the top...

Tywin obviously feared that Tyrion was destined to become a dwarf version of Tytos Lannister, a twisted, ridiculous dwarf Lord who most likely would be the end of House Lannister. It is even possible that he thought he did his son something good with this Tysha business. After all, the goal was to made him understand that there is a difference between the filth of common man, and the noble blood of House Lannister. And Tyrion understood that message pretty well. But of course it was Tywin's 'lesson' which made Tyrion find solace in whores - without it, he might have developed other tastes which might have not troubled his father that much.

Tyrion plays Tywin's role very well in ACoK when he towers over Cersei and tells that he will destroy her one day, and take everything away from her when she expects it the least. Tyrion is really afraid at this moment, and has to play a role. If Tyrion and Tywin are really somewhat alike, then it is most likely that Tywin himself is also playing a role, is also often afraid deep down when he plays the strong hard man.

[Yarl Snow]

Looking at only the bald facts of the matter, though, Tyrion participated in a far crueler form of sadism (even if it was orchestrated by Tywin) than Shae did to Tyrion (which was orchestrated by Cersei/Tywin).

Rape is worse than telling gross lies in order to get someone killed? Last time I checked, killing someone was worse than raping them. Like one of my favourite quotes say: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

While you agree that Tyrion was a victim, you still say he participated. It can't be both. Tyrion did not participate, he was forced and decieved. Raping is wrong, but killing with a sham trial is worse.

[Spoony]

Thanks guys. :)

I'm not denying that it's an important fact of the matter, but it seems to me (perhaps I'm misinterpreting other posters here, and if I am, I apologize) that many of the posts bringing this up do so in a fashion that attempts to exonerate Tyrion. I sympathize with and pity Tyrion; if it seemed that I was holding him responsible for the incident, that's not the case, as the blame for that lies solidly at Tywin's feet. What I am saying is that Tyrion raped Tysha, even if he himself was a secondary victim of Tywin's vicious cruelty.

That being said, of course each reader will decide exactly to what extent he was a secondary victim; did he rape Tysha because he felt humiliated, angry, frightened? You seem to be arguing that it's the last, or that at least he did so under duress. However, you also condemn Shae for betraying Tyrion; specifically, you stated that she "betray this human bond between them. Which is why she is guilty in my mind of treachery." Regardless of how we read the situation, we simply do not know why Shae chose to betray Tyrion, whether it was out of greed or out of fear; neither do we know what Tyrion felt when he raped Tysha.

Looking at only the bald facts of the matter, though, Tyrion participated in a far crueler form of sadism (even if it was orchestrated by Tywin) than Shae did to Tyrion (which was orchestrated by Cersei/Tywin). Tyrion was laughed at by the court and betrayed by a woman known to be a prostitute; Tysha was repeatedly gang-raped and also suffered the emotional betrayal of her husband (and the marriage, as far as we know, was a genuine love-match). If you're going to condemn Shae for betraying Tyrion, then it only makes sense (at least IMO) to condemn Tyrion for betraying Tysha, if you're looking at it from a moral/ethical point of view. If you're regarding the situation from the moral standpoint of "the story," though, Tyrion is the more obviously sympathetic character since we know so much more about him.

I don't think the comparison between what Tyrion did and what Shae did really stands because one doesn't really enforce or condone the other.

Getting into a discussion about who "betrayed" who more seems a little silly to me. But it seems like it should be a thread in itself.

Ira - I charge you with starting the first real gradient of betrayal thread on the board.

(Welcome by the way).

Maybe the Argument on my side is a bit more tricky because I more or less lack a clear discernible side - which makes arguing with/towards me more difficult.

I think people are too harsh towards Tyrion - but I also think he shouldn't have killed Shae.

(But I'm not really appalled or angry at him for this).

Tyrion did rape Tysha, but it seems a little unfitting to describe him as a rapist because of this.

Except in a wholly technical sense.

[Alexia]

On the other hand, Shae was paid for her services, and, part of the deal was that she not have sex with any other man. She broke her contract, there.

Tyrion stopped paying her for her services when he brought her into the Red Keep and made her into a servant. In any case, it would be utterly ridiculous to think that she was still bound by the terms of her contract when Tyrion has been sentenced to die and is sitting in a prison cell.

And if she actively seduced Tywin Lannister in any way - I think it is fair to condemn her for it.

Okay, now I'm just pleading. Why? You say Tyrion wanted to make her into his proper mistress, but the fact is that he didn't. So why should Shae be bound by the terms and conditions of something he wanted to do and never did? She wasn't his proper mistress or girlfriend, and personally, I don't think that he really wanted to make her a proper mistress either (given the sheets comment). But what is it that gives her the obligations of a girlfriend?

Personally, I think that you are taking the morals that would normally be present in a sexual relationship and misapplying them to Shae. In a normal sexual relationship, it comes about because of mutual affection, partners are of relatively equal status and have a mutual respect for each other. Because the relationship is founded in respect and trust, provided that monogamy is agreed upon by both partners, it is considered a double betrayal to cheat with a relative or close friend. But Shae wasn't cheating, she wasn't his girlfriend, and sleeping with Tywin is no more wrong than an employee of FedEx leaving to get a job at UPS or to start his own business. Not only that, but in Shae's case, she was taken at knifepoint from the man she was originally attached to and then Tyrion stopped paying her when he felt like it. I really don't see any moral obligation on her part in a commercial transaction.

And one of the more interesting moments of the story is when Tyrion really realizes that Shae never really loved him or enjoyed having sex with him. That it really was just a commercial transaction for her and that she really was what she was all along.

I completely disagree with this.

Tyrion wouldn't feel guilty about the incident if it were willing.

:agree:

He also wouldn't have thought that it would scare Shae if he thought Tyha was willing.

Rape is worse than telling gross lies in order to get someone killed? Last time I checked, killing someone was worse than raping them. Like one of my favourite quotes say: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

While you agree that Tyrion was a victim, you still say he participated. It can't be both. Tyrion did not participate, he was forced and decieved. Raping is wrong, but killing with a sham trial is worse.

Shae did what she had to do to survive. I'm afraid that Cersei is the individual responsible for killing through a sham trial, not one individual coerced witness.

Anyway, Varys, Boros, and others presented far more damning evidence against Tyrion than some whore ever could. Beat the king? Threatened to turn the queen's joy to ashes? Stole Pycelle's poisons? Threatened the king with Aerys' fate? Made me call him my giant of Lannister? :rolleyes:

[Faint]

Rape is worse than telling gross lies in order to get someone killed? Last time I checked, killing someone was worse than raping them. Like one of my favourite quotes say: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

While you agree that Tyrion was a victim, you still say he participated. It can't be both. Tyrion did not participate, he was forced and decieved. Raping is wrong, but killing with a sham trial is worse.

There is something to be said for the fact that Shae's action were committed under the threat of death and that she herself was probably not sure whether Tyrion had killed Joffrey or not, so it's possible she didn't even feel she was condemning an innocent man. In other words, it really isn't as clear cut as all that.

[Ira]

Very interesting thread.

Shae and Bronn can not be compared though, in my opinion. Bronn was a sellsword, and in Tyrion's pay, in fact, Tyrion even told him that if a better offer came along, Tyrion would double it to keep Bronn's services. Bronn REFUSED Tyrion's offer, as was his right. He had a better deal, but, Bronn did NOT actively seek to harm Tyrion in the process.

On the other hand, Shae was paid for her services, and, part of the deal was that she not have sex with any other man. She broke her contract, there. While I understand that she was not in any way able to renegotiate or discuss it, Tyrion can not be blamed for thinking rather poorly of her. Also, UNLIKE Bronn, who merely went to greener pastures, Shae actively engaged in making Tyrion's situation WORSE with her lying testimony at his trial.

Bronn deed was by inaction; harm to Tyrion occurred but was not SOUGHT by Bronn in any active manner, in fact, Bronn was free to be a free agent; Shae's deed was an ACTIVE betrayal. Shae is FAR worse.

Tyrion as rapist? I don't see it, as one can not rape the willing. Tyrion's sincere belief at that time appeared to be that Tysha was a willing participant. So, no, I dont name that rape.

I have to disagree that she broke the terms of their contract. As far as I recall (been a long time since I read the books), Shae agreed not to have sex with any other man while she was in her pseudo-relationship with Tyrion. Now, I might once more be misremembering, but I was under the impression that she remain faithful to him, in that she does not go and take other lovers while being his whore/prostitute/mistress/lover, whatever you want to call it. If she'd been sleeping with Tywin throughout SoS, then yeah, obviously she broke the terms of their contract. But take the two most popular scenarios: 1) Shae slept with Tywin out of greed, or 2) Shae was coerced into sleeping with Tywin, either out of fear or through force (both of which amount to rape). In the second scenario, it seems rather ludicrous to accuse her of being unfaithful when she was raped. In the first, she's essentially doing what Bronn's doing: leaving the imprisoned dwarf (who would have been condemned with or without Shae's testimony, as there were plenty of other "witnesses" willing to suck up to Cersei) with no prospects and nothing to offer her, or serve the Hand. Why is it condemnable in Shae, but not in Bronn?

At the end of it, the only thing that we can be certain of is that Shae did humiliate him--vindictive and cruel, perhaps, but once again, we do not know her motivations for it at this time (and most likely never will). While each reader is obviously free to be as lenient or harsh with the characters as they see fit, I do find it contradicting in logic that you're condemning Shae, while exonerating Tyrion and Bronn for the same crimes--betraying Tysha and Tyrion, respectively.

I usually try to avoid making sweeping judgments/statements, and I'm honestly sorry for doing it this time, especially if it offends you, but the first reaction I hate when reading your final statement was: "That's absolute fucking bullshit." My logical reaction hasn't changed much from my gut reaction, except that I'd put it in kinder words, but the gist of it remains the same. That's like saying that "Oh, I was under the impression that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction" and then invading and leaving the country in a state of complete political turmoil. (Apologies for the facetious/politically charged comparison, but I can't think of a better one at this time.)

To put it in more human, and less dry terms, imagine that you were in Tysha's situation, regardless of whether or not you're a girl or a boy. You are thirteen years old, and your first boyfriend suddenly starts calling you a whore, takes his brother's/father's word over yours, and shows up with his father and a large contingent of men, and proceeds to have non-consensual, "paid for" sex with you. Your boyfriend is the last to finish. I'm not sure about you, but I personally wouldn't give a half-eaten rat's ass as to whether or not he "thought that I was a willing participant." I really doubt that the law courts would care either.

If you accept the premise that Tyrion raped Tysha, then by the strict definition of the word, and not by the connotations attached to it, that makes him a rapist, even though he doesn't run around molesting/forcing other women; he certainly hasn't done so since the Tysha incident.

Rape is worse than telling gross lies in order to get someone killed? Last time I checked, killing someone was worse than raping them. Like one of my favourite quotes say: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."

While you agree that Tyrion was a victim, you still say he participated. It can't be both. Tyrion did not participate, he was forced and decieved. Raping is wrong, but killing with a sham trial is worse.

I don't know how I can make it clearer: we do not know why Shae chose to do so. I admit that Shae's humiliation of Tyrion was vicious and cruel, but we don't know whether she did so out of duress or out of greed. She's a powerless lower class woman in the intrigues of the rich and powerful; she has no family, no wealth, absolutely nothing to protect her. I don't believe that Shae is a heroine, or an incredibly sympathetic character (if she is one at all), but it's certainly illogical to condemn Shae, but not to condemn Tyrion and Bronn.

I also feel that you're attempting to make it black and white. He was a victim of Tywin's cruelty, and was certainly emotionally traumatized by it, but there's no such thing as purely white-and-black. It's like those situations in high school: There's almost always those popular kids who bully the outcasts of high school society, and there are those in the fringe--who are also bullied by the popular kids--who will nonetheless turn on the "lower class," the real outcasts, out of fear, or a desire to curry favor (even if it's only to provide sycophantic laughter). Are they a victim of bullying? Yeap. Are they also bullying the other kids? Yeap.

Essentially, the point that I've been attempting to make is not that Tyrion is a monster, Bronn is a monster, Shae is just a victim, Tysha is just a victim, etc. I'm saying that if you're going to judge characters by one set of moral standards (that are not that of "the story's," then apply it to all of them. If, on the other hand, you admit that you hate Shae just because you really like Tyrion/Bronn as characters, and acknowledge that you're judging them from the moral standpoint of "the story," then that also makes sense to me.

[Spoony]

Okay, now I'm just pleading. Why? You say Tyrion wanted to make her into his proper mistress, but the fact is that he didn't. So why should Shae be bound by the terms and conditions of something he wanted to do and never did? She wasn't his proper mistress or girlfriend, and personally, I don't think that he really wanted to make her a proper mistress either (given the sheets comment). But what is it that gives her the obligations of a girlfriend?

Personally, I think that you are taking the morals that would normally be present in a sexual relationship and misapplying them to Shae. In a normal sexual relationship, it comes about because of mutual affection, partners are of relatively equal status and have a mutual respect for each other. Because the relationship is founded in respect and trust, provided that monogamy is agreed upon by both partners, it is considered a double betrayal to cheat with a relative or close friend. But Shae wasn't cheating, she wasn't his girlfriend, and sleeping with Tywin is no more wrong than an employee of FedEx leaving to get a job at UPS or to start his own business. Not only that, but in Shae's case, she was taken at knifepoint from the man she was originally attached to and then Tyrion stopped paying her when he felt like it. I really don't see any moral obligation on her part in a commercial transaction.

And one of the more interesting moments of the story is when Tyrion really realizes that Shae never really loved him or enjoyed having sex with him. That it really was just a commercial transaction for her and that she really was what she was all along.

Well - my stance is that it wasn't a purely commercial relationship at this point. :laugh:

They were both more to each other at this point - even though Tyrion probably had deeper feelings for her than she knew or returned.

Tyrion doesn't even cheat on her - and Shae I think realizes this.

I think the understanding is that they are in a monogamous relationship.

Tyrion even conveys his guilt over having married Sansa - and conveys that he wants Shae, not Sansa.

[Ira]

I don't think the comparison between what Tyrion did and what Shae did really stands because one doesn't really enforce or condone the other.

Getting into a discussion about who "betrayed" who more seems a little silly to me. But it seems like it should be a thread in itself.

Ira - I charge you with starting the first real gradient of betrayal thread on the board.

(Welcome by the way).

Maybe the Argument on my side is a bit more tricky because I more or less lack a clear discernible side - which makes arguing with/towards me more difficult.

I think people are too harsh towards Tyrion - but I also think he shouldn't have killed Shae.

(But I'm not really appalled or angry at him for this).

Tyrion did rape Tysha, but it seems a little unfitting to describe him as a rapist because of this.

Except in a wholly technical sense.

Thanks. :)

I do think that you misinterpreted my post, though; I certainly wasn't intending to make it sound like "OMG TYRION IS SO MUCH WORSE THAN SHAE!!!" It's more that if you choose to condemn Shae for betraying Tyrion, then from an ethical and logical standpoint you should also choose to condemn Tyrion for betraying Tysha. To do otherwise just smacks of favoritism and fallacy. However, if you're choosing sides based on the ethical value system of "the story," which essentially is favoritism, then that's that. It's like me loving Jaime as a character even though many of the actions he commits are reprehensible, and I can't in any way sympathize with them. People who love Jaime hate Vargo Hoat for cutting off his hand, and people who hate Jaime love him for it. It's a judgment based on the reader's reaction to the story, which is obviously a perfectly valid interpretation--it just is not based on logic or legal/moral/ethical interpretations, and it seems rather silly to me to persist in comparing the two.

I do, however, agree completely with you in that one does not condone or enforce the other; again, that was most certainly not my intent. It just seems to me that looking at it logically, if one condemns one character as "deserving death" because she betrayed another, then shouldn't all characters be judged the same way? (Unless it's the value system of "the story," in which case it doesn't need to be logical--but then people need to stop arguing about preferential matters as if they're logical or ethical.)

Also, I'm not starting the thread because I'm too lazy to. ;)

(To make it clear, I love Tyrion. I thought it was absolutely adorable when he refused to sleep with Sansa against her will, and hope that he manages to find a happy ending. Doesn't change the fact that he committed the crimes of rape and murder though, at least IMO.)

[Yarl Snow]

There is something to be said for the fact that Shae's action were committed under the threat of death and that she herself was probably not sure whether Tyrion had killed Joffrey or not, so it's possible she didn't even feel she was condemning an innocent man. In other words, it really isn't as clear cut as all that.

Tyrion's actions were also done under duress. She knew beyond a doubt that her lies were very damaging and might get Tyrion killed. He was not in that court room to get a hair cut. The question was not whether she was forced or not, but whether rape was worse than killing.

Shae did what she had to do to survive. I'm afraid that Cersei is the individual responsible for killing through a sham trial, not one individual coerced witness.

Anyway, Varys, Boros, and others presented far more damning evidence against Tyrion than some whore ever could. Beat the king? Threatened to turn the queen's joy to ashes? Stole Pycelle's poisons? Threatened the king with Aerys' fate? Made me call him my giant of Lannister?

The question was if rape was worse than getting someone killed. The lies that Shae told were pretty remarkable, including even lying about Tyrion wanted to be king. There was no doubt in her mind that she was betraying Tyrion and participating in killing him. That, in my opinion, is worse than rape.

You say that Cersei is to blame for Shae's murderous lies, but Tyrion is responsible for Tywin's gang rape. Isn't that a double standard? Unless of course you mean that Tyrion, being a strong man, should be able to stand up for what is right, whereas Shae, being a weak woman, is excused for being submissive?

I don't think anyone of us is in any position to say who should have done what under these two different circumstances. But I still hold that while rape is bad, murder is worse.

[corbon]

Is a passerby who participates in a legal stoning of a adulteress (or something similar if I have any technical details wrong) in a hardline middle-eastern country a murderer?

Maybe by our standards, but not by his/hers.

The point is that it isn't right to judge someone from one culture by another culture's standards.

I think the best way to judge someone (true psychopaths aside) is from how they truly feel about their actions.

All this "is Tyrion a rapist" comes entirely from our cultural perspective and is vastly out of context I think.

I also think it is a form of "labeling" that is deceptively evil in it's own right.

Once labeled "a rapist" Tyrion can safely be boxed away by many, if not all, people as a 'bad person' regardless of truth, circumstances, effects or his own actual morals. That is a different sort of evil than rape, but evil nonetheless.

The same thing happens in our society today, where accused 'rapists' often have their lives destroyed by the label regardless of their actual actions, the situation or guilt/conviction.

All of which does not in any way make any form of rape anything less than a very evil act.

Or make any claim as to whether Tyrion is or is not 'a bad person'.

Probable Fact: Tyrion had non-consensual sex with Tysha (who was quite possibly not even cognisant by then).

That makes him a rapist by our cultural standards. Whether or not he was truly responsible in the context of the situation, he committed the act of rape.

If you asked Tyrion if he was a rapist I think he'd be truly shocked that you could even think such a thing.

By his culture's standards (and his family's even more) he has been an exceptional individual in terms of respecting other people's (by action at least) wishes and desires sexually:

1. he treats his whores relatively well as far as we can tell,

2. doesn't abuse his status as much as he could it seems,

3. actually married Tysha rather than just making her a mistress,

4. (SPOILER tags won't work, even cutting and pasting from Board FAQ , so the next bit is vague so as not to be very spoilerific), didn't actually abuse the situation as he could have in the ADD SPOILER

5. and certainly treated Sansa with more respect than she could have hoped for.

I am sure he knows that the paid-for-with-a-gold-coin sex with the gang-banged Tysha wasn't 'right' but I doubt to the extent of considering it rape by him. I think his memories of it are more about his traumatisation rather than hers (which doesn't mean he doesn't think she was traumatised*, but probably more by the guards-mass-rape than his own, when she was likely less than cognisant).

For the murders, I think he would admit culpability - they were undoubtedly technically both murder. Both were crimes of passion, and in a twisted manner of speaking, both also could argue both provocation and self defence. But that doesn't stop them being murders. He killed them, outside the law, and not in open battle.

OTOH, murder, under certain circumstances, is a much different crime in Westerosi society. It is still illegal (mostly), but far less morally reproachable it seems.

Or maybe it's just more common.

The society is certainly more brutal in certain ways.

*Assuming she was. I think, unless I missed something, the scene could be read two ways.

a) she really was an innocent (well, or even a whore) and was totally traumatised as indicated by not even trying to hold the coins she was paid

b ) she really was a whore, didn't like the fate Tywin pronounced but accepted she had to endure it and make the best of it - so many coins that her hands were literally full and the coins were slipping through her fingers. In this case, does her not liking it but accepting it make it consensual between her and the guards/Tyrion, but rape by Tywin?

Who is responsible for mass rapes committed by bands including child soldiers in africa? The children and young men who commit the actual acts? Or the leaders who order them and have power of life and death over their followers?

Neither is completely free of stain, but our western 'judgement' seems to be that the children/young men deserve care, the leaders deserve punishment. How is this different, really?

[Alexia]

Well - my stance is that it wasn't a purely commercial relationship at this point. :laugh:

They were both more to each other at this point - even though Tyrion probably had deeper feelings for her than she knew or returned.

Now comes the next question. We both agree that Tyrion thought (although I would question the validity of his claim) that he was in love with Shae since we were stuck in his head listening to him obsess about her for the better part of two books. Now...what makes you think that Shae had genuine feelings for him? And even if she does, how does that obligate her to him? After all, one can like their boss and be excited and passionate about their work but I still don't think its disloyal for that person to seek out a new position if the going gets tough.

You say that Cersei is to blame for Shae's murderous lies, but Tyrion is responsible for Tywin's gang rape. Isn't that a double standard? Unless of course you mean that Tyrion, being a strong man, should be able to stand up for what is right, whereas Shae, being a weak woman, is excused for being submissive?

When did I say that Tyrion is responsible for Tywin's gang rape? He most certainly did actively rape Tysha, but I acknowledged earlier in this thread that there were mitigating circumstances and I do think that Tywin is responsible for orchestrating the gang rape. Likewise, Shae is certainly guilty of perjury, but she is not guilty of the sham trial that Cersei orchestrated and produced numerous witnesses for, nor is she guilty of his death sentence when one judge declared his intention to have Tyrion executed before the trial even started.

However, I can't help but point out that Tyrion's life would not have been at risk if he refused to rape Tysha. However, Shae's life was most certainly at risk if she refused to testify in the trial.

[Spoony]

Thanks. :)

I do think that you misinterpreted my post, though; I certainly wasn't intending to make it sound like "OMG TYRION IS SO MUCH WORSE THAN SHAE!!!" It's more that if you choose to condemn Shae for betraying Tyrion, then from an ethical and logical standpoint you should also choose to condemn Tyrion for betraying Tysha. To do otherwise just smacks of favoritism and fallacy. However, if you're choosing sides based on the ethical value system of "the story," which essentially is favoritism, then that's that. It's like me loving Jaime as a character even though many of the actions he commits are reprehensible, and I can't in any way sympathize with them. People who love Jaime hate Vargo Hoat for cutting off his hand, and people who hate Jaime love him for it. It's a judgment based on the reader's reaction to the story, which is obviously a perfectly valid interpretation--it just is not based on logic or legal/moral/ethical interpretations, and it seems rather silly to me to persist in comparing the two.

I do, however, agree completely with you in that one does not condone or enforce the other; again, that was most certainly not my intent. It just seems to me that looking at it logically, if one condemns one character as "deserving death" because she betrayed another, then shouldn't all characters be judged the same way? (Unless it's the value system of "the story," in which case it doesn't need to be logical--but then people need to stop arguing about preferential matters as if they're logical or ethical.)

Also, I'm not starting the thread because I'm too lazy to. ;)

(To make it clear, I love Tyrion. I thought it was absolutely adorable when he refused to sleep with Sansa against her will, and hope that he manages to find a happy ending. Doesn't change the fact that he committed the crimes of rape and murder though, at least IMO.)

Oh, I agree with you on a number of points - and certainly I don't believe Shae deserved death.

I also don't think that Tyrion deserves to die for what he did.

But if Tysha appeared and murdered Tyrion I think I could accept it - much as I accept the murder of Shae.

I don't think your example works though. Because the situations and the motivations are so different between what Tyrion did and what Shae did.

I think a better comparison would be between Sansa betraying her father when she was twelve, and Tyrion betraying his wife when he was twelve.

Both are betrayals - and I think if you excuse the one and not the other, then you are engaging in favoritism or an ethical fallacy.

For me - I excuse both Sansa and Tyrion.

As far as Jaime and Vargo Hoat. I actually liked Vargo Hoat - but I was still amused when the mountain fed him to himself.

I like almost all the characters in the series - especially the villains.

The deaths of Rorge and Biter in particular saddened me.

[Spoony]

Now comes the next question. We both agree that Tyrion thought (although I would question the validity of his claim) that he was in love with Shae since we were stuck in his head listening to him obsess about her for the better part of two books. Now...what makes you think that Shae had genuine feelings for him? And even if she does, how does that obligate her to him? After all, one can like their boss and be excited and passionate about their work but I still don't think its disloyal for that person to seek out a new position if the going gets tough.

Perhaps I am extending the idea of them being in a personal relationship a little too far -

But.... I think you are going too far in the opposite direction in making it purely professional.

Shae was more than a whore - she was a human girl who could be just as silly and just as loyal and attached as any other.

I don't think it was just about her career.

[Yarl Snow]

To put it in more human, and less dry terms, imagine that you were in Tysha's situation, regardless of whether or not you're a girl or a boy. You are thirteen years old, and your first boyfriend suddenly starts calling you a whore, takes his brother's/father's word over yours, and shows up with his father and a large contingent of men, and proceeds to have non-consensual, "paid for" sex with you. Your boyfriend is the last to finish. I'm not sure about you, but I personally wouldn't give a half-eaten rat's ass as to whether or not he "thought that I was a willing participant." I really doubt that the law courts would care either.

If you accept the premise that Tyrion raped Tysha, then by the strict definition of the word, and not by the connotations attached to it, that makes him a rapist, even though he doesn't run around molesting/forcing other women; he certainly hasn't done so since the Tysha incident.

That is not what happened, though. We have not heard anything about Tyrion calling Tysha a whore, and that scenario you paint is purely fictional. The only version we have of it is Tyrion's, and he is clearly in agony about it. Strictly speaking, Tyrion has committed rape, but he is not a habitual rapist.

I don't know how I can make it clearer: we do not know why Shae chose to do so. I admit that Shae's humiliation of Tyrion was vicious and cruel, but we don't know whether she did so out of duress or out of greed. She's a powerless lower class woman in the intrigues of the rich and powerful; she has no family, no wealth, absolutely nothing to protect her. I don't believe that Shae is a heroine, or an incredibly sympathetic character (if she is one at all), but it's certainly illogical to condemn Shae, but not to condemn Tyrion and Bronn.

I also feel that you're attempting to make it black and white. He was a victim of Tywin's cruelty, and was certainly emotionally traumatized by it, but there's no such thing as purely white-and-black. It's like those situations in high school: There's almost always those popular kids who bully the outcasts of high school society, and there are those in the fringe--who are also bullied by the popular kids--who will nonetheless turn on the "lower class," the real outcasts, out of fear, or a desire to curry favor (even if it's only to provide sycophantic laughter). Are they a victim of bullying? Yeap. Are they also bullying the other kids? Yeap.

Essentially, the point that I've been attempting to make is not that Tyrion is a monster, Bronn is a monster, Shae is just a victim, Tysha is just a victim, etc. I'm saying that if you're going to judge characters by one set of moral standards (that are not that of "the story's," then apply it to all of them. If, on the other hand, you admit that you hate Shae just because you really like Tyrion/Bronn as characters, and acknowledge that you're judging them from the moral standpoint of "the story," then that also makes sense to me.

Ah, but you are sidestepping the issue. You said that "Tyrion participated in a far crueler form of sadism [...] than Shae did [...]". I would say that telling devious and damning lies at a murder trial is worse than raping someone, and more sadistic. Comparing two shades of black, one of them is the blacker.

One may consider the circumstances. In both cases, there were mitigating circumstances. But conspiracy to commit murder is still worse than rape.

Bronn and Shae do not compare, as I have stated before, and has duly been drowned in the avalanch of posts here. While they are similar, and would probably have done similar things in similar circumstances, fact is that Shae stood up in court and lied to have Tyrion killed, whereas Bronn did not. Bronn had the easier path, he just got payed off and didn't want to risk his life any further. Shae was (probably) coerced and threatened into betraying Tyrion. That still does not change the fact that Shae was the one who betrayed Tyrion, whereas Bronn never did.

You may argue that I must dislike Bronn for who he is and what he might do, but you cannot argue that I must dislike him for something that he did not in fact do. He never betrayed Tyrion.

And I do not dislike Shae. I fully understood why she did the things she did. I thought it was a shame when Tyrion killed her. It was wrong of him.

[Yarl Snow]

When did I say that Tyrion is responsible for Tywin's gang rape? He most certainly did actively rape Tysha, but I acknowledged earlier in this thread that there were mitigating circumstances and I do think that Tywin is responsible for orchestrating the gang rape. Likewise, Shae is certainly guilty of perjury, but she is not guilty of the sham trial that Cersei orchestrated and produced numerous witnesses for, nor is she guilty of his death sentence when one judge declared his intention to have Tyrion executed before the trial even started.

However, I can't help but point out that Tyrion's life would not have been at risk if he refused to rape Tysha. However, Shae's life was most certainly at risk if she refused to testify in the trial.

And more to the point, Tyrion's life would be at risk when Shae delivered her very vivid and false testimony.

I did not see you state that Tyrion was responsible, but you are holding his rape very much against him, and seem to be forgetting that he was coerced and deceived. At the same time, you excuse Shae for all her lies.

"Shae did what she had to do to survive." Yes, well so did Tyrion, during his whole life with Tywin. We don't know what would have happened if Tyrion had refused to rape Tysha. Presumably, Tyrion could imagine, and so he complied.

Tyrion may have raped Tysha, but his character is not abusive or sexist. If anything, he is portrayed as being capable of great empathy and sense of justice. It is easy to do the right thing when you have the support of your father and family. Harder by far to avoid doing the wrong thing, when forced to by an abusive and resentful father.

[Faint]

But if Tysha appeared and murdered Tyrion I think I could accept it - much as I accept the murder of Shae.

I hold the same line; if Tysha were to show up out of the blue and stab Tyrion to death, I'd not only accept it but find it a whole lot more justifiable than Tyrion raping her or killing Shae.

I think a better comparison would be between Sansa betraying her father when she was twelve, and Tyrion betraying his wife when he was twelve.

Both are betrayals - and I think if you excuse the one and not the other, then you are engaging in favoritism or an ethical fallacy.

For me - I excuse both Sansa and Tyrion.

I'm not sure if I'm in agreement about this because we have a clear understanding that Sansa had no idea what she was doing when she 'betrayed' her father and even in that, its not like she was the one to chop off his head or even expressed a desire to do so.

In Tyrion's case, he made a reasoned decision to engage in the gangrape of his wife on the word of his brother that she was a whore. As I have stated above, only through the powers of self-delusion could Tyrion truly convince himself that his wife was actually engaging in the orgy consensually and frankly, it would take someone of Cersei's caliber to get to that point.

Which is to say, I can't equate consciously raping someone with unintentionally playing a pivotal role in your father's death. Indeed, I have a hard time even agreeing with the concept that Sansa betrayed her father; doesn't betrayal actually involve the intent to betray? Did Sansa intend to betray her father or did she just want to stay at King's Landing and had the hope that Cersei could persuade her father?

[Spoony]

I think the fact that they were twelve excuses a great deal.

Sansa directly disobeyed the expressed wishes of her father - with dire consequences.

and Tyrion's overbearing Lord father made him rape Tysha.

Neither of these actions would have occurred if these characters were older.

[Morrigan]

I don't understand how people can aruge that Tyrion did not rape Tysha. He had nonconsensual sex with Tysha = he raped her.

Except he wasn't consenting either; he was a young boy, being coerced into having intercourse with Tysha, by his father. So, was HE raped?

Calling Tyrion a rapist is beyond stupid, IMO. If I use threats and coercion to force you to hurt or kill someone, and you do it because you're a traumatized, terrified, vulnerable 13-year old, you aren't a murderer, anymore than Tyrion is a rapist.

[georgeforeman]

Tyrion killed Shae because he had fallen in love with her and she had betrayed him (at least in his eyes). It's not her fault; she had no choice, really. But it still felt like an arch betrayal. And then to find her in his father's bed, well, his emotions got the best of him. In our society, he'd be condemned to rot in prison on a murder charge.

Tyrion raped Tysha because his father made him. There's no way he thought it was consensual. How could it have been? She'd just been gang-raped in front of him, and now allofasudden she's in the mood because they threw some coin at her? Ridiculous. But yes, 13-year-old Tyrion, scared, hurt, and coerced, raped Tysha. I'm not really sure how you can characterize it any other way, and I frankly don't put a lot of blame on him. What was he supposed to do? I doubt he could have refused any more than Tysha.

Tyrion killed Tywin because Tyrion had just found out that the other had forced him to rape his own wife and first love. Indeed, the one person who had seemed to love him as he was. When you think of crimes for which the phrase, "He needed killin'" sounds like a reasonable defense, that's gotta be on the list.

So yeah, Tyrion is a pretty fucked up little dude. ASOIAF is set in a place that produces fucked up people because lots of fucked up shit happens. So even after all of his crimes, I don't have a problem empathizing or sympathizing with Tyrion. Sympathy for a guy who, in the final calculation, is a rapist and double-murderer. What a great story.

[Lyndsica]

Ok, de-lurking here for my first time! Just 'cuz.

Did Tyrion knowingly rape Tysha, or did he somehow think she was a willing participant?

This is a tough call. I know that Tyrion truly believes that Tysha was a whore and he'd been lied to and set up. And while it seems he was an unwilling participant, he also states something to the effect that he should have defied his father in this - but that his cock betrayed him. This part is what bothers me most - it implied that he could have defied his father - that it was an actual, viable option to defy his father. An option he did not exercise just because he had a hard-on? Gimme a break! Or is that just how he is telling us - how he justifies it? Did he not do it because he felt so hurt and betrayed by her supposed lies? I mean - we can blame Tywin for lying and convincing Jaime to lie, but as far as I can tell no one actually forced Tyrion to stick it in - he admits it himself - he was turned on! Tyrion is one of my favorite characters, but I find this aspect of him pretty iffy.

Aside from all that, my real question is why did he believe this lie from his father and brother?! From the descriptions and memories he has of his time with Tysha, how could he possibly believe it was all an act? I suppose the answer lies in his low self-esteem due to being an unlovable twisted little monkey demon. :smoking:

Was Tyrion's murder of Shae in any way acceptable (or was Shae as justified as Bronn was to leave Tyrion for greener pastures)?

Shae was a whore. He had absolutely no right to expect any kind of loyalty from her - even when he was still paying her. No matter what he told her the deal was, she was still a whore. What he really expected of her was love, and that's something even gold can't compel of a whore. Perhaps making a lady of her could have inspired loyalty in her, but he didn't manage that. She could not appreciate what he did do for her in keeping her safe. All of that aside - be it right or wrong, I cheered when he killed her - I thought it served the little bitch right :D - does that make me evil?

What about Tyrion's murder of Tywin?

I was pissed when he killed Tywin.

He should have tortured him first. Maybe had him gang-raped?

How do we reconcile the way that Tyrion treats the women that he "loves" with the way he acts in other parts of his life (his treatment of Jon, Sansa and Tommen are bright spots).

That is the question, isn't it? You have to love him for the saddle design he sent for Bran, the easy way he gets along with the guys on the Wall, his genuine love for Tommen, his good treatment of Sansa, when he could have ignored her not wanting him; it was his "right" to take her after all - and in fact he was strongly compelled to do so. You also have to love him for poisoning that bitch, Cersei. :P

Hope this was a decent break-out post for me. :wideeyed: