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Judging Eye IX (spoilers)


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he complaining that none of the fantasies with modern moralities do any legwork to justify the existence of those beliefs?
No, he's mostly complaining (rightly) that folks want women to be equal of men in every way but still have a premodern society with things like kings and whatnot.

Which makes a lot of sense, but really wasn't what most people objected to when they talked about his sensibilities.

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That is more likely than Moe being alive.

Moe manipulated the entire world in order to condition the ground for Kellhus to ascend the throne.

Why is it preposterous to believe he conditioned the ground for Kellhus to reach the conclusions Kellhus yammers on about in their confrontation?

Just a thought, if Moe conditioned things so that Kell would reach certain conclusions about Moe can we trust any of the conclusions Kellhus talks about in that chapter?

And where is the upside to Moe risking an in person one on one encounter with Kell?

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For the record, I have two X chromosomes.

I think intuition and logic reinforce each other. For example, with Moënghus I started with a vague suspicion that it was awfully stupid for someone as smart as Moënghus to die like that. Then I applied logic to the evidence. Some of the evidence is easy to forget about since it happened two books ago, but the evidence in question turns out to be crucial.

If Moënghus was a low-status weak Cishaurim who lost to Kellhus, Nansur intelligence about Mallahet/Moënghus was not only wrong but the exact opposite of truth on an issue that shouldn't be all that secret. Indeed, you might expect widespread gossiping among the servants and the general populace on matters such as this. Mallahet's actual power level and status should both be hard to hide and low-priority to falsify. Indeed, you might argue that lying about his power would be an easy way to raise suspicion about double agents being double agents, since the Nansur in all probability should have genuine undetected agents reporting the opposite.

It is also important to remember that Kellhus doesn't have access to the Nansur intelligence about Mallahet like we the readers and wasn't there when Mallahet met with Xerius. Kellhus learned his politics from Achamian, who is very learned but doesn't have the focus on the Kianene current affairs that the Nansur have. Also, the Nansur faction is the one in the Holy War Kellhus had the most trouble with. Conphas in particular never sided with Kellhus and would not have advised Kellhus about the goings-on in Kianene politics.

In short, Kellhus doesn't know that Moënghus/Mallahet is said to be highly powerful and influential among the Cishaurim. Kellhus is also unlikely to know that the power of face-sending even exists. Those factors (probably combined with a hefty amount of subconscious wishful thinking) led Kellhus to underestimate his father.

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Are you excluding the possibility that Moe was just so sure of his calculations that he didn't even think that it was possible for Kellhus to betray him? And from that perspective his death wasn't from 'stupidity', it was from a false certainty borne of 30 years of planning.

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Are you excluding the possibility that Moe was just so sure of his calculations that he didn't even think that it was possible for Kellhus to betray him? And from that perspective his death wasn't from 'stupidity', it was from a false certainty borne of 30 years of planning.

I'm not excluding that, but Kellhus and Moënghus are approximately equally supergeniuses. Therefore we can't be sure from the outset which of them was guilty of fatally underestimating the other one. Moënghus losing his touch on Dûnyain psychology over the years and assuming Kellhus wouldn't stab him is somewhat reasonable but so is Kellhus being unaware of certain applications of Psûkhe and assuming Moënghus couldn't possibly have been there other than in person.

Luckily, we have extra evidence elsewhere in the books to help decide the matter:

1. The scene in which Mallahet comes to meet with Xerius. We learn that, according to the Nansur intelligence, Mallahet (who is obviously Moënghus) is by far the most powerful among the Cishaurim and very influential. We also learn about the Cishaurim ability of face-sending.

2. The scene in which Aurang possesses Esmenet. We learn that one's magical powers get much weaker with distance from one's real body, but compulsion (including possession) and illusion type effects require very little raw power and so can be used effectively from a distant puppet body.

Add to that "Moënghus's" demonstrated weakness in direct attack magic. I think the most elegant way to explain it all would be that the Nansur intelligence was correct but the one using the attack magic was either Moënghus projected from far away or a weakling Cishaurim used by Moënghus as a disposable puppet body.

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Hmmm. Well Cememketri certainly fears Mahallet, hearing that he is 'powerful' and 'second only to Seokti'. But I think his estimation of Moe's magical power is an assumption, a conflation of rank/influence with how much water someone can draw, a relationship that Moenghus doesn't necessarily exhibit due to his Dunyain powers of manipulation.

Also, considering how easily Kellhus dispatches the Cishaurim in Shimeh, I have the feeling that even if Moe had the powers of a primary, it wouldn't have been a contest anyways.

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For the record, I have two X chromosomes.
How many Y chromosomes do you have?

Kal - Do you love or hate Scott Bakker. I just can't tell sometimes.

I think Bakker is probably a decent guy. I've never met him.

I think Bakker needs some lessons on internet etiquette.

I also think that Bakker needs to learn how to actually listen to what people are saying to him instead of interpreting what they're saying through the lens of his confirmation bias. Which is fairly ironic since he accuses most everyone of doing this, but doesn't recognize or acknowledge it in others.

I think Bakker really needs to branch out from his cognitive science-as-philosophy bent and start working on other ideas. This is especially true for his non-fantasy books. It was interesting as a part of a conceit for a fantasy novel. It was bland as a horror backing (at least when used as an Argument). It was hugely repetitive when done yet again. At this point it's more preaching than interesting, and it makes it very hard to want to look at another novel of his other than the Earwa stories again. They're just too one-note.

I think he's a very talented writer and can write prose reasonably well. I think his biggest talent is in worldbuilding, and his second is at evoking responses from the audience. In that respect he reminds me a lot of Dan Simmons in worldbuilding and horror. But almost nothing else.

I think he's fairly weak at writing characters.

I enjoy his books and find them fairly deep - at least the Earwa bits. They hold up well to repeated readings, and they inspire a lot of good conversation.

I, however, had no idea where he lived or what coffee shop he frequents.

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He made one big mistake which lessened his powers. He misunderstood the nature of Indara's Water or whatever it's called.

I think one of the reasons people are inclined to think that Moe is still alive is because this seems like a ridiculously stupid mistake, especially for a super genius. He ought to have been able to talk the Cisharium into telling him everything about the Psukhe before he let them take his eyes. Also, after learning the Psukhe wasn't much of a benefit, couldn't he have learned anagogic or maybe even gnostic sorcery from someone else? He's a Dunyain; he's supposed to be able to talk anyone into anything. Hell, he talked Cnair into being gay--that's impressive.

Still, I don't think he's alive, mainly because it would undercut the ending of Cnair's arc in the first 3 books. I think the books just aren't plotted perfectly and if he had it to do over again Bakker wouldn't build Mallahet up so much.

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He can't talk anyone into anything though. That's been shown many times.

Kellhus has tons of trouble converting the Holy War, especially the higher ups. That's why he gets cruciformed after all.

Moenghus would probably have just as much trouble tearing the secrets of an extremely secretive order from them. Especially as a foreigner.

The whole "Moeghus is alive" this is just stupid and ridiculous because it relies on ignoring almost everything that's in the text and then ascribing to Moenghus a level of precognition the Dunyain have been displayed not to have.

They do make mistakes. They make miscalculations. And there are things they can't predict.

Moenghus' inability to predict Kellhus' "insanity" or whatever you feel it is, is covered many times in the text. Kellhus, like Moenghus one has to presume, was incapable of seeing past his cruciforming. The whole ending to TWP is about the gamble Kellhus takes. He doesn't know how it will turn out.

That it breaks him is something it's extremely easy to see Moenghus not predicting because Kellhus can't predict it either. And Moenghus' inability to predict this outcome is what leads to his death.

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It it broke him at all, that is. I still think that Kellhus' mental state "madness" or whatever is one of the more puzzling things.

Well yeah, it's all up for discussion on that issue.

But the point is, the book clearly demonstrates the limits of the Dunyain and Moenghus' death, aside from being shown perfectly clearly on screen, is completely in line with those limits.

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I agree with Shryke, here. The Dunyain do make mistakes. Moenghus himself said that the cruciform stage is where the probability trance failed him. He couldn't predict what would happen, there were too many variables. This is also the reason why Maithanet or one of Moenghus' worldborn kids couldn't do it. None of them have the breadth of abilities to make it through all of the problems associated with TTT, many of which couldn't be foreseen. I tend to look at TTT as a fantasy version of Asimov's psychohistory. It works well on larger issues with larger populations but breaks down the more detailed you get. You just can't predict what each person will do, that would require a Dunyain to actually be inside the events.

Another thing, Moenghus couldn't coerce the Cishaurim to tell him the secrets of their metaphysics because they didn't know exactly how it worked. All they know is that doing certain things produces certain outcomes. It wasn't until Moe actually started along the path of learning the Psukhe that he realized the mistake he'd made. This makes me wonder if Kellhus is following the same sort of path but the mistake he makes is what happens to his soul. I think Moe still would have eventually gotten all powerful among the Kianene if he hadn't found the skin spies. After that, and his subsequent information gathering from them, Moe had a different goal. If it weren't for the skin spies, Maithanet might have become Cishaurim and allowed Moe to be the power behind the throne. Maitha seems to have emotions so he'd probably be a stronger Cishy than Moe ever could.

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The whole "Moeghus is alive" this is just stupid and ridiculous because it relies on ignoring almost everything that's in the text and then ascribing to Moenghus a level of precognition the Dunyain have been displayed not to have.

They do make mistakes. They make miscalculations. And there are things they can't predict.

Yes, thank you, and until we get any sort of evidence suggesting that Moe is still alive, can we put this theory to rest? 1) it smacks of a moustache-twirling -everything plotted uber-villain cliche, one I doubt Bakker would stoop to without significant reason (nor would have introduced all the evidence in Skryke's post, much less written the touching scene between Moe and Cnaiur and the chorae) 2) there's really not an iota of evidence in TJE, and something that important to future books/story-arc should have at least been hinted at; 3) again, the whole Moe-is-infallible goes against what Bakker was working with. The dude even blinded himself and made a critical mistake as to the nature of sorcery due to his ignorance, the one obstical he can't predict. To wit. Even super geniuses get the blues. Even super geniuses can step over their own shoes.

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You bring up a good point, and maybe someone can refresh my memory...but I believe it's actually stated somewhere in the text that the metaphysics of the Psukhe aren't fully understood. I forget if that's in the appendix or what, but I think it says that somewhere. Seokti or whoever is the top Primary can probably incinerate you with blue goo, but he doesn't even fully understand where it comes from other than he knows how to do it. Contrast that with the Quya who seem to have developed the Gnosis by a complete study of how it works and from whence it comes. One is much more precise than the other.

It's stated at least twice. Once when Achamian is teaching Kell the Gnosis and the two start discussing metaphysics. Kellhus explains what he believes the Psukhe actually is, the whole remembering the pitch and passion of the God's voice part. The second part is when Moe and Kellhus have their meeting and Kell explains Moe's error by choosing to allow himself to be blinded. Since the Cishy don't know how their metaphysics work, Moe could not have foreseen that he would be extremely limited in his power because of his lack of emotion.

Of course, this all depends on if you believe Kellhus is telling the truth. Makes sense to me, though.

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So Psukhe metaphysics were unknowable for Moe until he had his eyes gouged out, but Kellhuss had it all figured out by the time he got down to Shimeh?

Again, I don't think Moe's alive, but I also don't think it's fair to say that there's zero evidence for it and I think the fact that Moe clearly could have become powerful from other sorceries is a bit of a plothole.

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Last point: the whole blinding thing. It feels like a part of the Psukhe that Bakker deliberately put in to keep Moe where he was (as opposed to just peacing and learning another school).

Well, there was the whole "plucking the one angle they see to better grasp the many they recollect" part. That made sense to me. I agree with whoever said, when I asked a similar question, that the reason Moe didn't just learn another school was that he would've been damned and would have lost stature among the Kianene. I think one of the other reasons he didn't is that he was so focused on TTT that he didn't mind not having unlimited power. He knew that blinding himself ended his chance at being the one to complete TTT.

Edit to answer Nerd123 above: Moe was only exposed to the Cishaurim. Kellhus had Akka to explain sorcery to him. He extrapolated from there. The Cish could not have explained much to Moe. He might have met another sorcerer who could explain things but who knows.

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Well, he knew that blinding himself ruined the TTT after he did it and found that his water was lacking. Before that he was all yay ultimate cosmic power.

If he weren't blind, he could have gone on to the Inri and made them teach him. With his blindness he wouldn't have been able to be go anywhere without the snakes (or at least manipulate people), and with the snakes no one would have taught him anything. If he wasn't blind he could have told the Cish to fuck themselves and move on.

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He might not have been able to coerce a Mandate sorcerer but I don't think he would have had much trouble with a Scarlet Spire. I'm guessing blinding him put him at a similar level to Maithanet in many ways. It doesn't say how long after he blinded himself before he found the skin spy but it might not have been that long. Maybe it took him awhile to realize how much he'd screwed himself with that mistake and then he found the skin spy and that took him down a different path.

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