Jump to content

Judging Eye IX (spoilers)


Spring Bass

Recommended Posts

But there is entire other reason why Moenghus becomes Cishaurim as opposed to Saik/Scarlet Spires, or what have you and it has nothing to do with the brands of sorcery. It is because he has swazonds (sp) from being with the Scylvendi, so he has to head South away from the Nansur. That's what sees him end up in Kian.

I'm willing to be that "Send to me my son" well after he realized he'd screwed up. He needed another Dunyain.

True, it says that he spent years in the probability trance before he sent for Kell. Not to mention the time it took for him to torture all that info from the skin spies. We know he found the skin spies around ten years before the Holy War because that's when the Cish attacked the Scarlet Spires. I'm wondering how long he was Cish before he found that skin spy? How long was he captured by the Sranc, the Scylvendi, etc. before he got to the point where he could become a Cishaurim. I don't think it'd be too long before he found the skin spy, but I could be wrong. It seemed like his journey south, with all the different times he was a slave would have taken at least a decade or so. :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish I had more time to post; though, really I feel like I'm either spending time with school, my novel or scholastic papers, or actively neglecting those things. Not to mention the list.

Anyhow, I thought I'd chime in but Triskele and Rhadamanth beat me to it.

Moenghus' journey seemed to have had to happen in order for Kellhus to have his. Moenghus made many logical mistakes a Dunyain might make as he found his way in the World. He even included his mistakes such as Cnaiur into his equation for Kellhus.

As Triskele pointed out, when Cnaiur let him go, Moenghus ritually scared himself, protecting himself on the Steppe yet damning him in the Inrithi Three Seas.

Also, I wanted to point out that the Cishaurim do see in some way aside from their snakes - Achamian and Xinemus travel the "shadow way" in TWP and Xinemus is able to "see" like a Cishaurim.

Moenghus was damn smart. Whatever happened to Kellhus during the Siege of Caraskand, I think he remains Dunyain - I think it's likely as well that he more or less told Moenghus the truth but Moenghus didn't know enough to see it as anything but madness.

Just thoughts.

EDIT: I'd say Moenghus lost his eyes pretty early into his Worldly adventure outside of Ishual. He also spent years meditating on his failures, likely, and probably discovered the first Skin Spy he encountered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One more thing, Moe's swazond would have damned him in Nansur but I doubt the rest of the Three Seas would have minded much. They didn't have to deal with the Scylvendi very often. Plus, he could have made them into a different type of scar/tattoo which would have covered it up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He still would have had to travel through Nansur to get anywhere else, basically, unless he takes a boat across the seas via Kian to....an Inri place. Which is pretty unlikely. I guess he could have tried to go through Zeum, but I suspect that it would have been barred to the likes of him as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He still would have had to travel through Nansur to get anywhere else, basically, unless he takes a boat across the seas via Kian to....an Inri place. Which is pretty unlikely. I guess he could have tried to go through Zeum, but I suspect that it would have been barred to the likes of him as well.

So you think a place like High Ainon or Conriya would have similar feelings toward Scylvendi? I doubt it. Proyas and his entourage didn't seem to mind. They were planning to use Cnaiur though which might have colored their thoughts but still they weren't nearly as out of sorts as the Nansur around Cnaiur. Moe could have easily caught a boat and gone to one of those countries, or anywhere else. Hell, he'd probably convince the Cish he was doing it for their benefit. He managed to make it to Nansur to meet with the Emperor without much trouble so why not anywhere else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's really no argument that Moenghus even knew about the Eastern Three Seas until it was too late. Kellhus had access to a wealth of knowledge in Cnaiur because of Moenghus. For Moenghus, it seems, he just kept getting tossed into more and more dire survival situations.

EDIT: As I've said numerous times, we also don't know what Moenghus really did in thirty years. He could have done extreme networking trips, etc. I always wonder about Moenghus' network. Fanayal is going to factor in huge in WLW and TUC and with him Cishaurim with Moenghus' teachings. Pat's already revealed in his review that Zuem sends a POV emissary to Momemn to reveal that Zuem might back the Bandit Padirijah (sp?) in revolt against the Kellian Empire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of this was just idle speculation on my part. I was just curious how long all of you thought it took Moe to become a Cish and then decide he was screwed. I was just wondering how much Moe could have accomplished before he found the skin spy and started along with TTT. If Moe had a few years, it seems like he would have figured out about other sorceries and maybe understood that he'd be much more powerful with those. It would have messed up his standing with the Kianene, who were the most powerful nation, so he probably didn't want to mess with that unless he wanted ultimate power. I think the discovery of the skin spy had to have happened not long after he became a Cishy and discovered how limited his powers really were. Otherwise, he would have moved on. The whole need to master everything else in order to master himself ethos the Dunyain have would have made him do it unless there was some other reason to stop him. He must have known that his limited Psukhe powers would have limited his rise in Kian so he would have had to move on without another reason. I just don't think being blind and having swazond were what made him stay in Kian.

Edit: I think it's obvious Moe learned of the Psukhe as his first sorcery. If he'd been exposed to any other form, unless it was a Nonman or someone he couldn't coerce, he would have learned that. Akka was Kell's first sorcerer, save Mekeritrig, but Kell would probably have left Akka if he knew that he'd be significantly more powerful with another sorcery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Moenghus was nominally screwed by the swazond and blindness. Plus, he had to earn the trust of his adoptive father before he even became Cishaurim, which might have taken years. Again, Moenghus, perhaps, thought he was master of all circumstance and just didn't pursue the right avenues - everything, possibly even including meeting a Mandate sorcerer was planned for Kellhus or at least anticipated by Moenghus. Moenghus on the other hand may never have known about other sorceries until he was indoctrinated into the Cishaurim. At that point, think on Eleazaras and Iyokus' blindness; he implies to his Master of Spies that blindness might make practicing Anagogic sorcery, at least, impossible, let alone learning it from scratch while blind. Anagogic and Gnostic are more similar to each other than the Pshuke and the same things which make the latter possible might make the former two unusable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At that point, think on Eleazaras and Iyokus' blindness; he implies to his Master of Spies that blindness might make practicing Anagogic sorcery, at least, impossible, let alone learning it from scratch while blind. Anagogic and Gnostic are more similar to each other than the Pshuke and the same things which make the latter possible might make the former two unusable.

I agree with the rest but this point makes me ask, do you think Iyokus can still practice sorcery? I think we see him with Kell and the Great Ordeal in TJE so it seems he must have some sort of power, whether as an advisor or sorcerer. I don't think Kell needs advisors, though. Still, I can't think of anything discussed in the metaphysics of the Gnosis that would hinder a blind Dunyain much. We don't really know much of the Anagogis save they're analogies rather than abstractions. It all seems like something that would be fairly easy for even a blind Dunyain to master. In the end though, Moe is dead and unless his followers and Maithanet have something planned then there is little to worry about. This does make me wonder why Esmi thinks that Kell doesn't trust Maithanet fully.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely think Iyokus still practices the Anagogis. Certainly, he uses the Daimos fine at the end of TTT even though he is blind. Your right in that we don't have enough knowledge of a blind person's Gnostic or Anagogic ability. I think its evident that Iyokus has either summoned Demons for Kellhus to fight or enabled Kellhus to travel to the Outside in some effort of Kellhus' to understand more of Earwa's metaphysics. I liked the thought about master everything to master one's self; I think that is definitely a good beginning place to speculate Kellhus' goal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely think Iyokus still practices the Anagogis. Certainly, he uses the Daimos fine at the end of TTT even though he is blind. Your right in that we don't have enough knowledge of a blind person's Gnostic or Anagogic ability. I think its evident that Iyokus has either summoned Demons for Kellhus to fight or enabled Kellhus to travel to the Outside in some effort of Kellhus' to understand more of Earwa's metaphysics. I liked the thought about master everything to master one's self; I think that is definitely a good beginning place to speculate Kellhus' goal.

I would guess that their inherent ability wouldn't be screwed up...but they just wouldn't be able to aim anything :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Moenghus was nominally screwed by the swazond and blindness. Plus, he had to earn the trust of his adoptive father before he even became Cishaurim, which might have taken years. Again, Moenghus, perhaps, thought he was master of all circumstance and just didn't pursue the right avenues - everything, possibly even including meeting a Mandate sorcerer was planned for Kellhus or at least anticipated by Moenghus. Moenghus on the other hand may never have known about other sorceries until he was indoctrinated into the Cishaurim. At that point, think on Eleazaras and Iyokus' blindness; he implies to his Master of Spies that blindness might make practicing Anagogic sorcery, at least, impossible, let alone learning it from scratch while blind. Anagogic and Gnostic are more similar to each other than the Pshuke and the same things which make the latter possible might make the former two unusable.

I agree that Moenghus was a bit unfortunate in his choice of sorcerous discipline. He "chose" to go to Kian, arguably the most powerful and most advanced nation within the Three Seas at the time. He chose to practice the Psukhe, a sorcerous discipline in which passion and not intellect was the determinant. Moenghus would have been much more powerful as an Anagogic sorceror, in which reason and analysis (so far as we know) determines sorcerous ability. While of course he had to build up a power base after he came to Kian, I don't think this would have taken a Dunyain all too long. Kellhus has little trouble in building up a little Dunyain (in order to cross the steppes from Atrithau), and Moenghus had no difficulty in seducing both Cnaiur and Cnauir's mother.

Just on the point of Iyokus' ability, just after he is blinded, Eleazaras asks him, "Can you remember the words?" (or something like that). Iyokus can, and is still probably a formidable sorceror.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really think that we all can't underestimate what the loss of eyes is to a Dunyain. Moenghus says it himself in during the climax in TTT. I'll paraphrase but essentially much advantage that a Dunyain has among the world-born is his ability to effectively read another's intentions and motives before their own self-knowledge. Much of Kellhus' ability to anticipate and control people comes from this. I've a huge bent towards considering our neurological strengths, as, I think, does Bakker, and we have certainly worked through and strengthened our visual capacities over all other senses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

btw, I'm not really convinced Moe is alive, but I find it fun to entertain the possibility, and the Kell Moe encounter was something of an anticlimax, really, with Moe acting rather dumb to meet Kell in person.

it's worth pointing out that Moenghus has a history of making permanent colossal blunders with his physical body because it expedites an immediate need. He swazoned up his arms to be able to travel unmolested through Scylvendi country, but his arms then branded him so totally he was unable to travel throughout any other part of the world other than Kian. And because he was in Kian, his experience of magic was probably mostly limited to Cishaurim. He may not even have known of other sorcery, nor anything of their generalities before he again made the permanent physical leap of blinding himself and becoming Cisharim.

So there is a consistency of Moe making the same mistakes, and a key part of it seems to be expediency, the mistake of the shortest path which may yield the best short term outcomes but not the long term outcomes. This also probably has something to do with the Thousandfold Thought. That when you're amongst world born the shortest path will have consequences and complications that you never considered, that there are devastating downstream side effects to using a bulldozer because it was faster. The Dunyain do not have to account for downstream geometrically growing reactions to the solving of a problem, they've eliminated so many cultural variables in their isolation and philosophy that the shortest path always works for them. Eventually, Moe ought to have accounted for the complexity and chaos of decisions made in an uncontrolled environment.

But even then, he wasn't very good at it. When he called for Kell, Kell came, but Moe called at a time of year that the environment/climate nearly killed Kellhus before he'd gone a fifth of the way--that is some serious bad planning if you're intending for your son to lead holy war you've been planning for twenty years, you don't let him get killed before he reaches another person.

Even Moe's seduction of Cnaiur was another error of the shortest path.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, is it that we all agree that Kellhus at the very least greatly underestimated Moënghus's political influence and therefore also his ability to influence people?

It occurs to me that Kellhus may not have been aware of the rule that barred non-Kianene from the position of the Heresiarch. Therefore Kellhus may have checked the identity of the Heresiarch, found out it wasn't Moënghus, and jumped into conclusions about his father's inability to rise in a hierarchy. Meanwhile I think the Holy War may have been in part about eliminating every worthwhile rival of Moënghus among the Cishaurim and causing enough disruption to justify breaking with the tradition.

I think Moënghus wasn't the only one among the Cishaurim capable of detecting skin-spies. The idea that Moënghus cleared the entire vast Kian by himself, especially by doing something as impractical as listening to discrepancies in people's voices, is too far-fetched to believe. In particular, assuming that the skin-spies first entered the scene when the Consult vanished from the Three Seas, the Cishaurim must have kept out the skin-spies well before the time of Moënghus. One possible solution is that snakes have a very good sense of smell and skin-spies are easy to distinguish from normal humans by their scent. It also could be possible that the Cishaurim have some exotic sense such as soul-sight that makes spotting skin-spies trivial.

I think it's also unlikely that Moënghus didn't know about Gnosis and Anagogis before he decided to become a Cishaurim. It's not like those things aren't well known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Moënghus wasn't the only one among the Cishaurim capable of detecting skin-spies. The idea that Moënghus cleared the entire vast Kian by himself, especially by doing something as impractical as listening to discrepancies in people's voices, is too far-fetched to believe. In particular, assuming that the skin-spies first entered the scene when the Consult vanished from the Three Seas, the Cishaurim must have kept out the skin-spies well before the time of Moënghus. One possible solution is that snakes have a very good sense of smell and skin-spies are easy to distinguish from normal humans by their scent. It also could be possible that the Cishaurim have some exotic sense such as soul-sight that makes spotting skin-spies trivial.

I think it's also unlikely that Moënghus didn't know about Gnosis and Anagogis before he decided to become a Cishaurim. It's not like those things aren't well known.

I think the Cishy would probably have used Maitha's technique of using needles on the faces of people to detect the skin spies after Moe discovered them.

If the Cishy knew about the skin spies before all of this, then why did they attack the Scarlet Spires after discovering them?

Still, I wonder how the Cishy infiltrated the Scarlet Spire compound? The book says they appeared in a flash of light and suddenly they were there. Teleportation? Seems unlikely to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the Cishy would probably have used Maitha's technique of using needles on the faces of people to detect the skin spies after Moe discovered them.

That would have been tremendously impractical. The population of Kian was in the millions and everyone would have to be checked repeatedly to avoid them being replaced after pronounced human. It just wouldn't have worked. Besides, Aurang thinks the Cishaurim are the problem, implying that the skin-spy detection is something that couldn't be delegated to mundane professionals. Aurang probably would have checked the nature of the problem by himself, relying on his birdform to avoid notice.

If the Cishy knew about the skin spies before all of this, then why did they attack the Scarlet Spires after discovering them?

I think the attack on the Scarlet Spires had nothing to do with the skin-spies and everything to do with Moënghus's plans for the Holy War.

Still, I wonder how the Cishy infiltrated the Scarlet Spire compound? The book says they appeared in a flash of light and suddenly they were there. Teleportation? Seems unlikely to me.

The two options are teleporting in and walking in while invisible. I think the latter option is less likely because invisiblity is a known trick and the Scarlet Spires had a lot of Wards against intrusion. Eleäzaras thinks in one of his POVs that it was strange that none of the Wards had triggered.

1. Mallahet/Moënghus visits the Scarlet Spires under cover of diplomacy. The Wards are not a problem because the Scarlet Spires are allowing him in.

2. He visits the main hall, gaining the ability to teleport there later on.

3. Moënghus teleports to the main hall with a group of his loyal supporters, bypassing the layered Wards protecting the place. He doesn't tell the Heresiarch.

4. Carnage! Moënghus's Cishaurim do a quick surprise attack and teleport away right after.

5. Eleäzaras (possibly spared on purpose due since Moënghus knew how he would react, having met him on his first trip) becomes a mortal enemy of the Cishaurim.

6. The Scarlet Spires plays into Moënghus's hands by joining the Holy War.

And yes, I think that means Moënghus should be able to teleport right into Kellhus's throne room if he wished.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Moe was not as constrained by the nature of the Psukhe as is described in the books, then why did he need Kellhus?

As far as I can tell, Moe's purpose has been to unite humans under a common purpose. The banner of that purpose is irrelevant, it might as well been Famin as Inrithi. So why add Kellhus to an already complex mix when he had the capabilities of doing it himself?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've written this before but Bakker did write on the old Three-Seas forums that at some point a full-blooded female Dunyain joins this story - if not already.

Look, I'm the first to suggest that Moenghus has an extensive network at the time of the Holy War. I think, Nerdanel, that you should re-read Moenghus and Kellhus' conversation in TTT as I'm pretty sure many things you think aren't brought up, are in fact.

I also really don't think until near the end of TWP, that the Consult is concerned with the Dunyain. In TTT, it still seems that Moenghus is their target - for all Kellhus' change wrought in the World, they still seem to think Moenghus is the Dunyain worth killing.

Also, the Skin-Spies, in their three hundred years of unknown glory, likely only got their people into positions such as Skeaos and Ceph (the titular king of High Ainon). It's not so hard to believe that Moenghus claimed to have cleansed Kian - something Aurang attests to - because they might have had all of five Skin-Spies in Kian and Fanimry for three hundred years. Cnaiur's Skin-Spies comment that they've been many. I mean, maybe the Consult has such a low grasp of the Tekne that they made thirty in total over three hundred years. Fifty even. They only start resorting to impersonating Zeumi stable slaves and such after Kellhus has been in power for twenty years and has all the "power" centers checked, re-checked, admonishes his New Empire to report discrepancies in any and everyone.

Moenghus could have easily cleansed Kian himself with his Dunyainic Cishaurim.

EDIT: Maithanet has some major degree of skill in recognizing/handling the Skin-Spies. Compare Maitha's control over the Mandate Skin Spy and Kellhus' Gandock fight with Sarcellus. I would assume that Maithanet has lots and lots of tricks up his sleeves. I mean he only assumed the position of Shriah near the end of Moenghus' thirty years in the World. Plenty of time to learn from Daddy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...