Judging Eye IX (spoilers)

[Shryke]

Gnostic Wards are apparently just luminescent spheres around the caster, as in the scene I quoted. Anagogic Wards seem to be ghostly representations of actual walls, as seen in TTT. I would guess that until they are fully "cast" they are not evident, though.

ETA: You seem to be talking about the subtler Wards, not combat Wards. I think those must be invisible, even to the Few - they seem to see the Mark only on the Few (non Cish Few), and not the sorcery itself.

Aurang (or whichever of the 2 brothers visits Kellhus in TTT) talks of "slipping between wards", which would seem to imply that sorcery is somehow visible beyond just the visual queues anyone with eyes can see. Which would make sense, given what we know of sorcery and the like.

[Curethan]

So, being able to see the few might be quite subtle if you don't know what you're looking for, if I want to push the principle of charity a bit further. ;)

eta

I didn't mean to imply that Moënghus had the Judging Eye. I meant that Kellhus thinks Moënghus shines brightly when viewed by someone with the Judging Eye ability, such as Mimara in the next book. The Cishaurim apparently call the Judging Eye the ability the Third Sight.

They do? I thought he was talking about 'seeing' via the onta.

[Nerdanel]

They do? I thought he was talking about 'seeing' via the onta.

Kellhus's offhand comment about something called the Third Sight doesn't make it sound like just the normal ability the Few possess. Achamian never thinks that some people shine to him. He only sees various degrees of the Mark, and Cishaurim are indistinguishable from normal people in their lack of the Mark. On the other hand, we know that Mimara's Judging Eye shows goodness as shining, with the amount of goodness apparently correlating with the amount of shine.

(Kellhus is not talking about Moënghus's great magical power shining when unleashed, since - according to Kellhus - Moënghus is very weak in the Water. And anyway, Cishaurim magic is invisible to arcane sight, only showing in the visible spectrum.)

Kellhus's lack of consistency on Moënghus's damnation makes me think Kellhus doesn't think the Judging Eye truly shows whether someone is damned. (I think it does show it.) Or maybe Kellhus really is too far gone to notice the logic error. I think the former is the most likely option, and the Judging Eye being an objective prover of damnation doesn't fit with Kellhus's new worldview of changing such things just by declaring it so.

[unJon]

Nerd, I see zero reason to believe that Kel knows wtf the judging eye is at the end of TTT.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I didn't mean to imply that Moënghus had the Judging Eye. I meant that Kellhus thinks Moënghus shines brightly when viewed by someone with the Judging Eye ability, such as Mimara in the next book. The Cishaurim apparently call the Judging Eye the ability the Third Sight.

Oh well, maybe I did get more confused in my sleep-deprived state than I though... It turns out that I thought you were talking about the book when you were talking about the ability. I also might not have been properly woken up when I reviewed what everyone wrote last night.

How is this in any way "apparent?"

[Nerdanel]

Nerd, I see zero reason to believe that Kel knows wtf the judging eye is at the end of TTT.

The Judging Eye is rare, not unheard-of. Achamian knew about it, as revealed in TJE, and he would have told Kellhus about the ability in the course of teaching Kellhus everything he knew. I can easily see him explaining that yes, we know which people are damned and which saved, as there is this Judging Eye thing, called the Eye of Wrath[*] by the Nonmen and the Third Sight by the Fanim...

WrathOfMe: What ELSE do you think the Third Sight could be? As far as I can see, it's either the Judging Eye or an ability very much like the Judging Eye but which has never been mentioned anywhere outside of that single sentence.

[*] Even more speculative than the meaning of the Third Sight

[Kalbear]

can easily see him explaining that yes, we know which people are damned and which saved, as there is this Judging Eye thing, called the Eye of Wrath[*] by the Nonmen and the Third Sight by the Fanim...

Okay, it's vaguely plausible that he'd know what the Judging eye was.

How on earth would he even have an inkling that it's synonymous with the third sight?

The third sight seems to me to be the way that Cish can move and interact with the world through their magic. That's all.

[lokisnow]

The third sight could easily be how the Cis see via the snakes. and if Moe uses monk techniques to always maintain a high core body temperature he'd always be shining (with great body heat) in the infrared spectrum snakes see.

Re Dunyain founding.

I don't think ses founded the dunyain, but if he did, he may have founded them because he thought if humanity did not have sorcery they might be forced to invent the Techne themselves to compensate. Unfortunately in erasing gnostic sorcery they erased Trig and Calc which would be very helpful in developing technology.

Unless the prologue contains another major error, we can assume that the Dunyain have developed a quite robust little society within the glamour of Ishual.

Dunyain steel

To manufacture their own steel they probably need to have iron mines as well as coal mines. There can be some remanufacture of first apoc era weaponry and armaments, but if there was a deeply limited supply of Iron (from ancient arms) would Kell have been allowed to take a sword?

This also connects to one of the things that always irritated me about Ishual's isolation, there is no society on Earth that was ever completely isolated, there was always trade going on no matter how remote a people were. Particularly for mountain dwelling people who typically had trade/pilgrimmage routes for annual trips to the sea to stock up on marine food (dried roe was one of the great prized foods of human history, whether you were in the Alps or the Himalayas). Like the Scylvendie, most cultures had agreements that if you were on such a trade route/pilgrimmage you were temporarily immune from vendettas, ambushes or attacks.

To survive without trade Ishual has monumentally huge challenges. Ishual has to have agriculture, animal husbandry and some sort of marine culture, a mining industry and some sort of manufacturing skills. Tailors, Cooks, tanners, blacksmiths, armorers (why do the dunyain need weapons or martial arts training, who are they training to fight?) bakers, farmers etc. There needs to be a community of probably a few hundred (if not larger) that provides a self sustaining gene pool and enough people to be self sufficient with no trade.

Random speculation:

Moe brought back Sranc with him and said the dunyain needed to study the creatures or use the creatures for their face skinning torments rather than humans. This was why he was banished he wanted to change things too much. :-p

Also I've always figured that Moe deciphered the Sranc communication system (dunno if it can be called language) in a few hours and was actually with them/leading them as he made his way through the world when they were found by the Scylvendi. Being Dunyain, Moe would have no problem with raping, Sranc cannibalism, slaughtering, maiming, tormenting, torturing killing or whatnot. He'd just view participating in Sranc 'fun' as an expedient way to stay alive, since those were the passions they enjoyed it'd be easy for him to master a mimicry of such animal horrors.

[Finn]

why do the dunyain need weapons or martial arts training, who are they training to fight

Great question. I think we're going to find out that the Dunyain mission is not what Moe and Kellhus think as of the end of TTT (or at least not only that). Nothing about the Dunyain thing makes sense to me.

I've asked this before, but what exactly is the point of training a society of face-readers if you're never going to leave Ishual? As you ask, why train to fight if you're never going to leave Ishual? Moe and Kelhus seem ideally designed to dominate circumstance in the larger world. But what good are these skills in Ishual when (presumably) everyone has them and (presumably) everyone is on the same page? And how do these skills help them with the creation of a self-moving soul?

Also, excellent point on the need for trade. The answer may simply be that the Dunyain are a "conceit" and that the world-building doesn't extend that far. I'd actually be OK with that answer, although it would also be interesting to find out that they have had regular exchange with the larger world.

[Kalbear]

I figured that the facial reader thing had to do with deception and to control animal urges. While it's hugely valuable outside of Ishual, all it is in Ishual is being able to recognize others innate deception and be able to control your own.

The martial arts thing...is kinda insane, I admit. I would guess that they wanted to make sure that they could defend themselves and it's a good thing to be both physically and mentally tough; one tends to help the other. But I'd think it'd be more of a theoretical exercise. Then again, Kellhus knows nothing of war; he knows how to kick people's asses, but not how war works. That fits in.

ETA: I'd be really, really happy if we found out that these gaps were simply there because Moe and Kell didn't know about them, and that knowledge was sequestered well. I'd be even happier if the Dunyain ended up sending out Moe purposely knowing what he would find and where he'd go, even having agents out there that would Condition the ground for him without his knowledge and ultimately leading him down the path to save the world.

[lokisnow]

I'd be even happier if the Dunyain ended up sending out Moe purposely knowing what he would find and where he'd go, even having agents out there that would Condition the ground for him without his knowledge and ultimately leading him down the path to save the world.

Like Ajencis? or Faux-Mohammed (whatever the name is of the dude who came out of the desert and founded the Cis and split from the Tusk).

edit: It is pretty amazing the amount of mistakes Moe made. Presuming there have been other exiles (reasonable) over two millenia, none of them have ever made a memorable mention of Dunyain or being Dunyain. I don't believe Kellhus ever speaks the word. But Moe told Cnaiur the word Dunyain, and perhaps a bit about the Dunyain/Ishual. This indescretion may ultimately lead to the downfall of the Dunyain because Cnaiur's knowledge was crucial to both the Consult, Akka and the rest of the world opposing Kellhus (via Akka's book) learning of the Dunyain's existence.

[Kalbear]

Ajenics would be an interesting idea. Actually, the notion of almost every major historical figure being Dunyain would be pretty sweet. It'd go second foundation style, which I like.

And yeah, Moe made a ton of mistakes left and right, but that's not so bad in the scheme of things, as the plan had to start becoming far more overt.

[lokisnow]

I don't think we'll find out a damn thing about Ishual/Dunyain in WLW, the book will probably be a travelogue type, with two of the story threads on the road and Akka only arriving in Sauglish near the very end of the novel. The truth akka is dealing with in the teaser blurb probably has nothing to do with Ishual and the Dunyain and more to do with Mimara or the nature of reality/metaphysics.

I'm thinking Akka finds in Sauglish the Non-man book that tells their history (and the history of the wars with the inchies) and finds out some crazy shit. Maybe a statue of the half-nonman half-human daughter (not the line that founded the Anasurimbors, the other line RSB mentioned on the boards). that looks shockingly like Esme or Mimara. Or he finds out that Humans are creations of the tekne, that they inchies took the emwamma mutated/evolved them into humans and started a colony on the other continent that grew and grew. the inchies gave them the tusk and sent the humans to go wipe out the nonmen.

or maybe the truth is that Ishterebinth and Celmomas collaborated to preserve one of Cel's illegitimate lines in a sequestered land in order to try a breeding experiment to strengthen the dregs of nonmen blood in the anasurimbor stock. Ishterebinth could have realized that they may have better luck with recovering thire species if they can create a hybrid human that can more readily breed with Nonmen and revive the species. Perhaps they figured it was a soul thing as well, and wanted to mold the animal passioned human soul to a more dispassionate nonman soul. So the tutelage of the Dunyain was done, embedding concepts that would incline them towards great isolation so that they would continue the breeding program undisturbed.

the dunyain being a creation of the nonmen, strikes me as more likely than being a creation of Seswatha. I think the glamour that preserves Ishual has a lot more in common with the one around the ark than we realize.

Additionally Ishual is an abandoned and more importantly an unknown Nonman mansion. It seems likely that Ishual was a long family secret/stronghold/retreat (fuck, Helm's Deep, duh) that other nonmen didn't even know about. It was probably built at the height of the Inchy wars (or before during the wars with other nonmen), and the offer was only tendered to Celmomas because Ishterebinth saw the human/inchy war coming and figured they needed to preserve the only human/nonman line they knew of. I can't imagine any way Cel could build or discover Ishual on his own. I think he was told of it in great secrecy and confidence as a very extreme measure to preserve his blood before his whole line was squandered warring against the damned inchies.

also wanted to bring up my thoughts on why Kell didn't see Mek's mark. He may have just assumed that was how non-men look. Having had no prior contact with the species or with sorcerers he would not know what he was seeing. Or he might dismiss the stain as some sort of optical illusion designed to deceive and to prevent him seeing his enemy clearly. I think the latter is more likely and Kell just looked past the mark. At that point it would not have meaning connected to sorcery or damnation or indicative of his own sorcerous abilities. He could easily think, a trick of the light, or 'a trick of the shadows about his face'.

[Kalbear]

I think the latter is more likely and Kell just looked past the mark. At that point it would not have meaning connected to sorcery or damnation or indicative of his own sorcerous abilities. He could easily think, a trick of the light, or 'a trick of the shadows about his face'.

Okay, that makes sense.

So why doesn't he see Akka that way? It's not until well into the second book that he mentions anything. And prior to that he sees all sorts of sorcerers, yet in his PoVs we get nothing. He notes the skin spy intimately and easily, and we get a lot of that description. So why not a talk about how the Mark looks?

[Madness]

Damn.

Two things:

Firstly, dance, martial artists, bodily control, sports, whatever, all greatly increase brain matter, neurological strength and intelligence, fine motor skills. It's comparable to how knowing to play violin or guitar can translate into greater proficiency and ability in math or language. This shit is my academic & research bread and butter. It would help the Dunyain, and any of us, to know karate or ballroom dancing. Plus it fits in with their philosophy of coming before physically in all circumstance as well as emotionally or mentally. A certain stack of activities and practices in human life can enable us far more intelligence, creativity, and lateral jumps in emergent and fluid thought.

Lol, the human brain is such a sophisticated object, like a rocket engine, and rather then attempt to understand it, our academic consensus so far is to try and stick the technological augmentative equivalent of nitros tanks, red flames, and a spoiler on it. What a joke.

But what good are these skills in Ishual when (presumably) everyone has them and (presumably) everyone is on the same page? And how do these skills help them with the creation of a self-moving soul?

The Dunyain have to push physical and mental limits every generation or else they fail, regardless. Even in minute excess.

As Razor said, the face reading could easily have been the initial attempts to understand the passions, which are chiefly understood and expressed through our facial musculature and its positions. To minimize the animal appetites they must first understand them.

As for the Moenghus, Third Sight, Judging Eye nonsense. I'm almost positive it refers to these quotes:

TWP, p. 642 - 643

Achamian and Xinemus walked the ways of twilight, between light and dark, where only shadows are known. There was no food in this place, no life-giving water, and their bodies, which they carried across their backs the way one might carry a corpse, suffered horribly.

The twilight way. The shadow way . . . When they passed near the camps of the enemy, they could feel the Cishaurim's plucked eyes - brilliant, pure, like a lamplight before a silvered mirror - search for them from beyond the horizon.

TWP, p. 651-652

"Akka," Xinemus said . . . "When we walked as shadows . . ." "I'm blind," Xinemus continued. "Blind as blind could be, Akka! And yet I saw them . . . The Cishaurim. I saw them seeing!" . . . "You did see," he (Achamian) said carefully, "in a manner... There's many ways of seeing. And all of us possess eyes that never breach skin. Men are wrong to think nothing lies between blindness and sight."

"And the Cishaurim?" Xinemus pressed . . .

"The Cishaurim are masters of this interval. They themselves, they say, to better see the World Between. According to some, it's the key to their metaphysics."

And most importantly, even hinting something completely different and more confusing than the Judging Eye and my position that the Third Sight its simply a Cishaurim thing.

TWP, p.579

"I am Hifanat ab Tunukri," the eyeless man said breathlessly, "a Dionorate of the tribe Indara-Kishauri ... I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought . . ."

"How did you find me?"

"We see you. All of us . . ."

"Us?"

"All of us who serve him - the Possessors of the Third Sight. (Which honestly I always just thought as Moenghus teaching Cishaurim some version of the probability trance, until this debate.)"

Him ... Father. He controlled a faction within the Cishaurim . . ."

Just thoughts.

Oh, and Razor, perhaps Bakker just tried to hide the reveal as I think unJon said.

[generic]

The martial arts thing...is kinda insane, I admit. I would guess that they wanted to make sure that they could defend themselves and it's a good thing to be both physically and mentally tough; one tends to help the other. But I'd think it'd be more of a theoretical exercise. Then again, Kellhus knows nothing of war; he knows how to kick people's asses, but not how war works. That fits in.

Maybe they changed their theoretical exercises after the first Sranc attack?

Speaking about Sranc: How can there be countless numbers of them even though they have no affinity for non rape related activities? They hardly seem capable of keeping slaves long enough to make agriculture worthwhile.

That may actually be the reason why the Inchies brought their giant abortion whirlwind to battle. Maybe they couldn't feed their Sranc hordes after the one time nutrition boost of eating the whole north and rather than lose them to cannibalism they decided to go for a decisive battle.

[Madness]

I forgot to add. According to the books, Moenghus is the first ever exile from the Dunyain. Not sure where I remember reading that. It's not something that happened. Though, I have no kind of supporting theory as to how the Dunyain are possibly self-sustainable.

And generic, I was reading some TTT Appendix today and it talked about accounts of female Sranc - yes, there are sexes - going into battle pregnant. Also, they can survive on pretty much nothing. They need to fuck more than they need to eat.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

To survive without trade Ishual has monumentally huge challenges. Ishual has to have agriculture, animal husbandry and some sort of marine culture, a mining industry and some sort of manufacturing skills. Tailors, Cooks, tanners, blacksmiths, armorers (why do the dunyain need weapons or martial arts training, who are they training to fight?) bakers, farmers etc. There needs to be a community of probably a few hundred (if not larger) that provides a self sustaining gene pool and enough people to be self sufficient with no trade.

From Kellhus's recollections, there's no reason to believe that there is not a significant number of Dunyain. I think they live in kind of a citizen/slave culture, where the defectives are used for manual labor (mining, manufacturing, farming, etc) as well as study. It could even be that there is a parallel society of defectives who serve the Dunyain.

If you think about it, there must be a fairly regular population of defectives - otherwise, how would they always have enough of them on hand to train the young Dunyain in face-reading? That must be a pretty big number, and while they could presumably serve for years, it would take quite a few to keep up a regularized supply to replace those who die.

edit: It is pretty amazing the amount of mistakes Moe made. Presuming there have been other exiles (reasonable) over two millenia, none of them have ever made a memorable mention of Dunyain or being Dunyain. I don't believe Kellhus ever speaks the word. But Moe told Cnaiur the word Dunyain, and perhaps a bit about the Dunyain/Ishual. This indescretion may ultimately lead to the downfall of the Dunyain because Cnaiur's knowledge was crucial to both the Consult, Akka and the rest of the world opposing Kellhus (via Akka's book) learning of the Dunyain's existence.

Kellhus at least mentions that he is Dunyain to the people of Atrithau - his followers from that city supposedly called themselves the "little Dunyain."

[Kalbear]

Speaking about Sranc: How can there be countless numbers of them even though they have no affinity for non rape related activities? They hardly seem capable of keeping slaves long enough to make agriculture worthwhile.

It's mentioned that they grow quickly and can eat almost anything and don't require a ton of food. They also breed very fast and apparently have their young while just walking around or whatever.

From the above quotes it sounds like The Third Sight is simply the name that they give to Cish abilities. No big there.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Hmmm...I don't recall this part. Is this mentioned in TDTCB pretty quickly after Cnaiur finds Kellhus as the last survivor from his journey down through the North?

TDTCB, US trade paperback, p. 359: (this is, I believe, Kellhus's first POV after he and Cnaiur leave the Utemot encampment together)

Since abandoning the trapper and fleeing south through the northern wastes, Kellhus had encountered many men, especially the city of Atrithau. There he discovered that Leweth, the trapper who had saved him, was not an exception. World-born men were every bit as simple-minded and as deluded as the trapper had been. Kellhus needed only to utter a few rudimentary truths and they would be moved to wonder. He needed only to assemble those truths into coarse sermons, and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau's southern gates, calling themselves the adunyani, the "little Dunyain." Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return. For the semblance of meaning.

I have to believe that we're going to see Atrithau at some point. It seems to be totally unique in that it's a fully-functioning human city that still survives way up in the old north in a way that Sakarpus is not. And then there's the arcane ground thing, and then there's the fact that Kellhus has already been there.

The problem is that Atrithau is considerably out of the way for the Great Ordeal, and has no attraction as a potential conquest, as Sakarpus had (the Chorae horde, good horses, local knowledge, and of course it was directly on the line of march.

Can someone remind me how the arcane ground plays in? Is sorcery impossible there? Is it protected from sranc and the Consult somehow? Because if so that makes me think, yet again, that the Great Ordeal would want to use Atrithau as a place from which to attack the Ark.

The Ark is hundreds or thousands of miles from Atrithau, judging by the map of the northern wastes. It is perhaps closer than Sakarpus in a straight line, but that line would cross the Demua mountains and the Sea of Neleot.

The TTT glossary tells us that Atrithau is built on anarcane ground which renders sorcery impotent. I gather that it is not immune to the Sranc, but as the ancient capital of Eamnor it would be heavily fortified and well-defended during the First Apocalypse. I think it survived purely for that reason. It outlived the Sranc probably because of its warlike population (Leweth mentions district militias), aforementioned strong walls, and the overall lack of coordination among the Sranc tribes. United in force they might be able to crush Atrithau, but it (like Sakarpus) likely has enough military strength to weather occasional Sranc attacks.