Judging Eye IX (spoilers)

[aimlessgun]

It's gotten to the point that I think someone needs to find some way to put up a site with paypal account or something where we can all put money on who Cleric is.

NJ - 7 to 1

NC - 4 to 2

NG - 5 to 2

NCu 50,000 to 1

SH - 80 to 1

SJ - 110 to 1

MK - 100,000 to 1

other - 50 to 1

MK=NJ - 110,000 to 1

NC=NG - 20 to 1

Put me down for 20$ on 'other'!

[Finn]

Notice that at this time it was still called Ishoriol (I do forget what it was called during the Apocalypse, though). I bring this up because in the Judging Eye, Akka asks Cleric if he is from Ishterebinth. Cleric replies that he thinks he has been there before, but when it was called by another name.

If I had to bet, I would lean toward Cleric being Nil'giccas

Hmmm. I'm being won over to the Nil-G side.

Regarding the "You betrayed..." line. It could be relevant if he is Nil'giccas as well.

Nil'giccas can be seen as having betrayed his allies by withdrawing from the first Ordeal, "embittered by the loss of his sons".

So Cleric/Nil-G could have been wandering the earth like Caine from Kung-fu since his withdrawal from the first Ordeal. (Mostly I just want Cleric to have been some badass Nonman from back in the day -non-Mek or Nin division- who has been wandering the earth like Caine from Kung-fu. What can I say? I'm a simple man).

[lokisnow]

(Ishual, Ishoriol, Ishterebinth. these nonman mansions are related, Nerdanel tin hat time: Ishual IS Ishterebinth, they are given different map locations to confuse the weak minded!).

btw, I think Akka finds a copy of the Isuphyris in the coffers and that is where he learns his terrible truth.

(side thought, it's ironic that men call chorae tears of god when they were manufactored by the damned races of non men and the unholy demon-esqe inchoroi. seems rather ungodlike and unholy an object origin for men to hold so 'dear'. Makes me wonder about the "holy" Tusk.)

In the skins of elk I pass over grasses. Rain falls, and I cleanse my face in the sky. I hear the Horse Prayers spoken, but my lips are far away. I slip down leaf and still twig - into their palms i pool. Then I am called out and am among them. In sorrow, I rejoice.

Pale endless life. This, I call my own.

Anonymous, The Nonman Canticles

ummm. This sounds eerily like what happens to Kellhus when he leaves Ishual

Just how much Nonman blood could Kell have?

Let's presume a maximum of 6 generations per century (every fifteen years), and a minimum of 5 generations per century. that works out neatly to 127 to 95 generations in Ishual during their 1900 year sequestering.

Let's presume a maximum of 4 generation per century and a minimum of 3 generations for the World Born, it may be reasonable for the long lived anasurimbor to do this only once or twice a century, though.

825 - The Rape of Omindalea, first hybrid 50% nonman blood.

1378 - Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I, “Hammer of Heaven” (Kûniüric from Umeritic nanar hukisha), the first Anasûrimbor High King, is born

5.53 centuries = 16-22 generations from Omindalea to Anasurimbor. = 0.0007629% to 0.0000119% Nonman blood in the Anasurimbor kings.

Up until this point, there was probably relatively little inbreeding, but some probably did occur over 16-22 generations, so It's likely the percentage was higher than either of those. Nanor Ukkerja divided his kingdom and his three sons founded kingdoms, presumably over the next centuries, their families would interbreed, probably reducing the rate of reduction, so let's say that it only halves twice per century after this.

2135 - approximently - Ishual Anasurimbor Bastard is born - this is 7.57 centuries later or about 15 more generations halving the nonman blood. (if we do presume total anasurimbor inbreeding, the blood would have strengthened over 15 generations, it's possible the anasurimbor blood at the time of the apocalypse was near 25%). 15 more generational reductions yields 0.00000000036379% nonmen blood. :-p

2143 - No God is summoned

2147 - Dunyain arrive in Ishual

2155 - No God is killed, kids can be born again. First generation of Anasurimbor bastards kids are born, yielding 0.00000000018189% Nonman blood in the first new generation of Dunyain breeding program. Let's assume that it is doubled and inbred every generation what do we get: (95-127 generations within Ishual) and it takes 39 generations to get to full nonman blood. So clearly the math of using 2s to divide or multiply to represent the amount of nonmen blood in the Dunyain don't really work out. But presuming a more reasonable breeding strategy where not every generation is inbred, it's reasonable to guess that Kellhus is somewhere between 10% and 75% nonman.

4065 - Kellhus is born (roughly guessing)

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

What page in tJE does Cleric's sermon begin? I'm having trouble finding it. Thanx.

[Nerdanel]

I find the idea that Ishuäl = Ishterebinth ridiculous. I'd say it's about as likely as Ishuäl = Ishroi which is not at all. Ishuäl and Ishterebinth have conflicting histories of inhabitation and both are seen on the map as distinct places.

Cleric's sermon starts at page 380 in my edition.

[unJon]

Lockesnow, your analysis makes a basic and fatal error. You can't use breeding to take one waterdowned specimen and turn it into a fullbreed.

[lokisnow]

Lockesnow, your analysis makes a basic and fatal error. You can't use breeding to take one waterdowned specimen and turn it into a fullbreed.

yeah I know. Going by 'blood' is the wrong way to term it. The Dunyain were selectively breeding for particular traits, though, it would make sense that Nonman traits would eventually be bred for. But you're right, you cannot call Kellhus 50% nonman. It would be better to describe him as a hybrid with a great deal nonman traits within his DNA.

Also I assumed that the Anasurimbur descended from Omindalea, I guess it is also possible they descended from Cimoira. I think Bakker answered which one they were from on the three seas forum, but I'm not sure.

[jurble]

Bakker needs to clear up this Nil'giccas/Nin'Ciljiras shit. Why doesn't he stop by here anymore?

[Amun]

Do you have the page number for this exchange? This seems like a pretty strong suggestion that Cleric is not NC given that Aurang's comment suggests that NC is still running things at Ishterebinth. And if he's not NC that makes the supposed possible spoiler from the old forum all the more puzzling. And it also probably strengthens the argument that he could be NJ or NG, and I'm going with NG now. But as the supposed spoiler I think it could be explained that by saying that while we don't expect much more than Cleric in WLW we could easily see more nonmen in The Unholy Consult. Because I think the supposed spoiler comment was for The Aspect Emperor series.

It's on page 143 of my US trade paperback edition, the Marrow chapter.

[jurble]

You weren't around for the Bakker and Women threads were you? You should dig them up. He posts in some of them. I don't think we'll be seeing him again in here though.

I looked them up a few months ago.

[Curethan]

I think the non-man kings often had dominion over more than one mansion, yes? Sin'niroiha became king of Ishoriol through marriage which also made him king of two mansions (the other being Nihrimsul). So what happened to Nihrimsul? Nil'giccas was Sin'niroiha's heir and prosecuted the war into the arc, possible that NC is his heir or sub-comm running Ishterberinth whilst NG is hanging in whatever Nihrimsul is called now or up to some other "anti-consult activities".

Also rereading C-I wars from glossary, interesting stuff about Sirwatta (probable Anasurmibor scion). He got banished to watch duty over the ark, then manages to get lost in there. When he emerges he's all crazy and trying to warn the Ishroi about what's inside. Death penalty issued (!?) but CC apparently cuts his tongue out and keeps him alive. wth? Makes no sense, without a tongue he can provide no intel, he's obviously potentialy dangerous, so no advantage to not killing him... wierd. Then two entries down...

"Cut from them their tongues..." - the famous phrase from The Chronicle of the Tusk regarding sorcery and sorcerers.

Crazy theories welcome.

[Curethan]

Not possible, as NG just passed through Cil-Augas with Achamian. :P

...or up to some other "anti-consult activities" ;)

eta: @ lockesnow; just posted above about Sirwatta - it's possible that he was kept for breeding experiments by CC.

[lokisnow]

Cimoira was Sirwatta's child, and potentially the line from which the anasurimbor sprang, and since Sirwatta was kept alive (he was sent to guard the ark as a punishment for knocking up a nonman woman) I suppose it is possible that Sirwatta is the source of the Anasurimbor genes via a secret CC breeding program. Cimoira's mannish blood was hidden, and presumably they passed her off as Cunori with no problems. Again, I believe that Bakker revealed on the three seas boards that either Cimoira or the Rape of Omindalea was the source of the nonman blood in the Anasurimbor genes, but I can't remember which.

Does anyone have a clue where Siol might be? I've a hunch it is the ruins Kellhus finds in the prologue, but I'm not sure. There are repeated mentions of the mammoth, though dead, tree that he sees there. btw, from what I can tell, Siol is NOT cil Aujus, since CC became lord of Cil Aujus by conquering it.

also, we shouldn't forget that Sin'niroiha isn't definitely dead, he was also a king of Ishterebinth (by marriage) and could be NC or NG.

I wonder who the last nonman male issue ever born is? Cleric? NC or NG? Mek? it doesn't matter?

[lokisnow]

re: who is responsible for the Anasurimbor line:

http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=543&start=15

The Siqu are the Nonmen advisors to the ancient Norsirai Kings during the Nonman Tutelage...

You sent me digging for this one. I thought I would post this little teaser of what to expect in the apendices to TTT:

820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman

Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II

(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first

daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the

house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees

to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to

return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II

expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire.

Omindalea conceives by the union and dies

bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-

1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave

conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted

by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir.

- The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of

the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a

consonantal alphabet, c.835.

We should perhaps consider Jiricet as a possible Cleric as well.

ahem, I wonder if the word anasurimbor means "bastard" ;)

[anor277]

...

"Cut from them their tongues..." - the famous phrase from The Chronicle of the Tusk regarding sorcery and sorcerers.

Crazy theories welcome.

I remember this snippet. Is it a sure-fire way to neuter a sorceror? Interesting, of course it would be very hard to do. No doubt those old time Tusk prophets were tough and had tough gofers.

Before the new thread starts, could we start using spoiler tags a bit less sporadically? Yes, I know Scott himself revealed some things on the old board, but if it's not in the appendices it should not be for general consumption.

[Curethan]

Better than poking out their eyes, but idk if two inutteralls would be enough in the case of those that can manage it.

eta

Siol could be somewhere along the northern Atkonoras range or the southern Demua mountains given the apparent nonman habit of building in mountainous areas. Or on some smaller mountain not shown, but likely in that area, given the approximate locations of the other great mansions. Had to be far enough from Golgotteroth that the immeadiate nature of the ark's descent wasn't noted, and at its height CC's empire strtched from the Yimalti Mountains (Viri) to the Meneanor Sea (Cil-Aujas).

[unJon]

re: who is responsible for the Anasurimbor line:

http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=543&start=15

We should perhaps consider Jiricet as a possible Cleric as well.

ahem, I wonder if the word anasurimbor means "bastard" ;)

Put under spoiler tags for Anor's benefit. The only spoilers are what's in the quote from the Bakker site in Lockesnow's post:

Is the 820 the date that the rape happens? If so, that means she was preggers for five years?!?!?! She dies in childbirth in 825. And why is the child adopted as heir after knocking up a slave-girl? That seems a strange catalyst for adoption as heir, or am I misunderstanding that sentence.

Also wonder why this tidbit was cut from the TTT appendix.

As to whether one of the half-non-men could be Cleric, it seems improbable that they would look exactly the same as a non-man such that Akka would not think there was not any hint of human in Cleric. I don't think that it's plausible. Though it would be exceedingly funny if Cleric is the Anasurimbor that was prophesied to return as the harbinger of the Second Apocalypse.

ETA: fix spoiler tags and add other stuff passim.

[Madness]

I'm going to stay out of this because I think our intellectual capacities might be spent better on other speculation. However, I just wanted to add that Ishual means Exalted Grotto in Inrimsu (sp?). Ishual has a Nonman Mansion beneath it, which the Dunyain refer to and use as the Thousand Thousand Halls. Ishual belonged to the Nonmen at some point. Did they bequeath use of it to Celmomas? Perhaps, Kuniuri had use of it even before the Apocalypse.

[Madness]

Or maybe the Ordeal will strike clear east of the Sea of Neleost towards Dagliash?

Really? I believe in your attention to detail, but my recollection of the text was that Celmomas had commissioned that Ishual be built specifically because of his worry about the pending Apocalypse, even if he didn't call it that. Are you simply saying that Ishual was built on top of an abandoned nonman mansion?

Ishual: "Exalted Grotto" (Ihrimsu) The secret fastness of the Kuniuric High Kings, located in the Demua Mountains, and subsequently inhabited by the Dunyain.

This is directly below Ishterebinth - "Exalted Stronghold" (Ihrimsu) in the TTT Appendix.

Thousand Thousand Halls: The Labyrinth constructed by the Dunyain beneath Ishual and used by them to test their initiates.

The naming convention always struck me. Men have created Mannish names for everything so this would be a serious deviation. Plus, the closeness of Isterebinth and Ishual directly on either side of a the Demua Mountains, which would mirror Cil-Aujas construction, through the Osthwai Mountains, and their translated names.

Finally, the Thousand Thousand Halls, always, always struck me as a Mansion because of those names.

EDIT: Btw, Pat claims that though they don't show up in force the Consult's presence is very much felt throughout the events of WLW. I wonder how?

[aimlessgun]

Now...do we make a new thread or does GB have a monopoly on that...