Judging Eye IX (spoilers)

[Curethan]

Might be interesting to note that the Dunyain, despite repudiating history and removing all trace of it (and sorcery) 'forgot' that the name Anasurimbor contains a leetle bit of historical weight... Obviously from a narrative perspective, it's kinda important that we all know who Kellhus is, but from the world-building aspect its kinda jarring.

Which leads one to speculate on other Dunyain naming conventions. Would have thought they would all be called - 'infant/child/adult' or named via numerals.

[Nerdanel]

So I went and reread the part with Kellhus and Moënghus, skipping out the interspersed Shimeh bits.

Some highlights:

- Moënghus admits that he is weak in the Water.

- Moënghus claims that Kellhus will be unable to kill him.

(I had forgotten both of those.) Since Moënghus is a Dûnyain, the veracity of his statements shouldn't be assumed. Nevertheless, it is clear that Kellhus's mundane stab was not an unthinkable possibility for Moënghus. Moënghus talks very little about himself, doesn't comment on much of what Kellhus says, and the scene is from Kellhus's POV, so there isn't all that much about him here really, let alone reliable information.

Also: Kellhus supposes that Moënghus shines in the Third Sight, which probably means the Judging Eye. This doesn't fit too well with Kellhus's other supposition that Moënghus is damned and would join the Consult.

Also, it turns out I had forgotten the Judging Eye talk in this segment. The Judging Eye appears to be a meme - a complex plan that involves uniting the Three Seas.

[Madness]

You mean the Thousandfold Thought, right, Nerdanel? Otherwise, your last statement doesn't make sense.

The Third Sight, eh? I wonder if that just means the way in which the Cishaurim see - again, recall the part in TWP where Xinemus "sees" like the Cishaurim when travelling the "shadow way" with Achamian.

Yeah, I love Bakker's stuff. Favorite author. The next book might be the first time that we get some concrete facts to speculate with.

Triskele, I know you weren't asking me but I figure the next series will be called the First Apocalypse. I feel as though The No-God fits so much that it is too completely obvious. Even though it fits in with Kellhus' successive gains in power.

[Nerdanel]

Yes, I was talking about TTT. I thought I had mentioned the book but apparently it's too late in the night for me not to make stupid mistakes like that even when I proofread myself.

I think the name of the third series must fulfill two big conditions:

1. It must be a very good title, so that Bakker doesn't wish to choose something less spoilerish in its place.

2. It must be spoilerish, so that its being kept secret for a reason.

"The No-God" just isn't all that spoilerish. His importance to the storyline is clear even now and his eventual resurrection for a Second Apocalypse wouldn't be all that surprising.

As I've said earlier, my best guess for the final series is "The Anti-God".

[Curethan]

Suspect you mean TTT rather than TJE, Nerdanel.

Can just see Mek throwing a pokeball the carapace at Kellhus and capturing him as the no-god.

"YOU MUST TELL ME. WHO AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE."

Akka: "You're Kellhus, and you're still a dickwad."

"..."

Predictions

Next series will be "Kellhus and the Fox Network Faux Consult".

I'm betting we learn that Seswatha founded the Dunyain in WLW or TUC.

[Kalbear]

So Kal - Would you go so far as to predict that the third series will be called "The No-God?"

Yep. Said that a bunch of times.

"The No-God" just isn't all that spoilerish. His importance to the storyline is clear even now and his eventual resurrection for a Second Apocalypse wouldn't be all that surprising.

Except the title refers to KELLHUS. So if the title was The No-God, that would immediately imply that Kellhus is the No-God. Which is a teensy tiny spoiler.

[Rhadamanth]

I'm betting we learn that Seswatha founded the Dunyain in WLW or TUC.

I thought this too. It wouldn't surprise me if he did it accidentally too. I imagine him having a rousing discussion with a group of people or maybe just one person on the nature of thought and souls. Seswatha would be roaring drunk because he'd had a fallout with Celmomas over a rumor that he banged his wife/concubine. Little did he know that his drunken ramblings would have repercussions that would change the future.

[Curethan]

It's just a theory, Triskele. I got little to back it up, but the dunyain really seem like Seswatha's style.

Primarily yes, Seswatha is the only guy who knew about Ishual. He founded the Mandate at about the same time. The Mandate holds the Gnosis, knowledge of the first apocolypse and the knowledge of the Celmoman prophecy. Seswatha would have been tripping to think this would be enough to oppose the no-god reborn and the second apocolypse.

His flashback dream sequences show some uncanny knowledge and typicaly Dunyain traits. Lying to Nau to help get the Heron spear, even being able to sneak into the Incu-holinais. Manipulating and cheating erratic non-men, aspect-emperors and the consult and getting away with it. Not getting killed despite being on the top of the Consult's hit list and even being captured at least twice. Knobbling dragons, negotiating alliances between enemies and surviving countless battles (mostly losses). The dude was clearly badass on an Eriksonian level.

Something more, something new was required to oppose the consult in his absence. The dunyain seem like a good bet to be one of several plans he might have enacted hoping to generate some kind unforseeable wrench to throw into the consult's plans for a second apocalypse.

Other than that we have the un-named old man's reaction to finding the Anasurimbor heir in Ishual. It is perfectly in line with the reaction you would expect if he knew the Celmoman prophecy. Speaking of which, I wonder what would have happened if the plague hadn't arrived before the Dunyain....

[Rhadamanth]

OK, I'm intrigued by this idea about Seswatha founding the Dunyain (assuming you guys aren't joking). What makes you think so? Because Seswatha knew about Ishual?

There are only two things that make me think this might be possible. First, the glossary in TTT says that the Dunyain were believed to be descendants of the ecstatic sects that arose in the ancient North in the days preceding the Apocalypse. This puts their founding right around the time of Seswatha.

The second is that Akka's dreams are turning into something interesting. He's learning about more of Seswatha's life before the Apocalypse and I'm sure there will be hints that lead to something more than just the discovery that Sauglish contains the secret of Ishual and that Seswatha is probably Nau Cayuti's dad.

I am fully aware that these two points are easily dismissed. I don't believe that Sessy actually founded the Dunyain, unless that's the big reveal at the end of WLW about a truth that Akka can scarcely survive let alone comprehend. That seems like Sessy being a founder would be merely a part of it. Maybe he not only started the Dunyain but he gave them a copy of the plans and location as well as being the ancient ancestor of Kelly. :stunned:

Mostly though, I think it would be kind of funny if Seswatha founded the Dunyain accidentally.

Edit to add: I agree with Curethan above about Sessy being very smart and probably a long term planner. He might have started the Dunyain and a few other sects just to see where that might lead. I still think it's kinda strange that only the Mandate survived with the Gnosis. There had to be a lot of Gnostic schools around. Some must've survived the fall of the north. I'm sure some of them were in the South as well. The only thing I can think of is that all the survivors were folded into the Mandate in order to protect the future.

[Rhadamanth]

Crackpot theory: Not only is Seswatha Nau Cayuti's father but Akka is the father of Kayutas from the last time he slept with Esmi.

ETA: I just want to be clear that I do not think this is true at all. Kayutas is way too much his father's son to actually be Akka's kid. But the parallels struck me if you kinda buy into Akka being our current Seswatha.

Not bad, but yeah I agree that Kayutas is too much like Kell to be Akka's. Plus, I think she was already pregnant when they had sex that last time. Still, I kinda like crackpot theories... even Nerdanel's.

[Madness]

Just to temper you all here.

Seswatha screws Celmomas' wife, his queen; we see the proof of that in TJE - however, Nau-Cayuti is a young boy at the time, not necessarily giving us an indication of his parentage.

Celmomas has the idea for Ishual as a refuge, not Seswatha. Celmomas, indeed, seems to be the more long term planner in that moment, except Seswatha muses that it is out of character for the High King.

Seswatha founds the Mandate after the First Apocalypse is over. Hence, why Atyersus is where it is, so far south. He was the Grandmaster of the Sohonc and one of the only two Gnostic schools to survive the fall of Sauglish; the other being the Mangaecca, who years before were banished from practicing sorcery. There were no Gnostic schools in the Three Seas, as far as we know. Only the North experienced the Nonman Tutelage; even the North had Anagogis before that.

The Dunyain find Ishual in the aftermath of the Kuniuri's fall. I'd like to say I'm sure, maybe someone could check the years, but I think that the Dunyain came across Ishual while Seswatha was still fleeing/fighting the No-God.

That they "came across it," I guess is the controversy here. Specifically, I'll say that its more likely that Celmomas gave the map to someone rather than Seswatha. I wonder what the Dunyain were like in the World before Ishual. Just another cult, amongst a patheon of Gods and Sorcery? Why would Seswatha even care/think they were something worthwhile? It's only in the long term scenario that the Dunyain become the epic factor they are. Surely, Seswatha, even the Dunyain founders, couldn't have realized what would become of them.

[Rhadamanth]

That they "came across it," I guess is the controversy here. Specifically, I'll say that its more likely that Celmomas gave the map to someone rather than Seswatha. I wonder what the Dunyain were like in the World before Ishual. Just another cult, amongst a patheon of Gods and Sorcery? Why would Seswatha even care/think they were something worthwhile? It's only in the long term scenario that the Dunyain become the epic factor they are. Surely, Seswatha, even the Dunyain founders, couldn't have realized what would become of them.

How dare you interrupt my unsupported theories with your "facts". :tantrum:

As to why Seswatha would think they were worthwhile? The glossary says their belief system is utterly unique. If nothing else, Seswatha would probably have been intrigued by something new.

Edit to answer Trisky above: Akka is merely trying to find Kellhus' origins. I don't think he has any idea what he's getting into.

Second, we know from Kell's flashbacks that the only thing the early Dunyain knew was "that which comes before determines what comes after". Everything else they believe, came after.

[Curethan]

Adding to Rhadamanth's comment.

The dunyain principles of progressing their belief system hinge on some pretty deep understanding of the metaphysics of Earwa. Erasing history and sorcery as a first step demonstrates this. Their 'goal' of awakening the God (Moenghus' interpretation) seems like a diametric opposition to the Consult's objective of summoning the No-god, something Seswatha would find very interesting, I think.

We have the Mandate with the Gnosis and apparently first hand experience of the consult, preserved by Seswatha and yet comprimised and ineffective. And the Dunyain who have absolute secrecy, a fresh perspective and the skills neccesary (plus an Anasurimbor). Seswatha was way too canny to put all his eggs in one basket.

[Madness]

You should read the Dunyain excerpt, Curethan. I wouldn't say that because the Dunyain chose to disclude sorcery and history, that they made the right decision.

I just spent some time getting lost in TTT Appendix as I used to on Three Seas. I won't go crazy here because there's just so much of interest.

Definitely, as I wrote, anyone who's got the book around, check out the Dunyain excerpt. It doesn't really help our current vein of speculation but it's damn interesting and insightful.

Gnostic Schools: Those Schools that practice the Gnosis. Only two such schools, the Mangaecca and the Mandate, survive, though prior to the Apocalypse some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence, the Sohonc foremost among them.

Mangaecca: The ancient rival to the School of Sohonc, and last of the four original Gnostic Schools . . . In 777, at the behest of a Nonman Erratic named Cet'ingira, they discovered the . . . dread Ark of the Inchoroi . . . In 1123 rumours began spreading that Shaeonanra (Shauriatas) . . . had discovered a means to undo the scriptural damnation of sorcerers. The School was promptly outlawed, and the remainder of the School fled to Golgotterath, abandoning Sauglish forever.

Thousand Thousand Halls: The labyrinth constructed by the Dunyain beneath Ishual and used by them to test their initiates. Those who become lost in the Thousand Thousand Halls invariably die, ensuring that only the most intelligent survive.

World Between: The world as it exists "between" our perceptions of it, or "in itself."

I thought these most applied to what we were discussing, don't ask me why. I'd add to that Thousand Thousand Halls one that likely the labyrinth "the Dunyain constructed" is probably just the Nonmen Mansion. It may even join to Ishterebinth somehow. I imagine the Dunyain wouldn't tell their initiates that it was built by another intelligent species, when a little white lie suffices.

[Kalbear]

descendants of the ecstatic sects

Hee. I think you mean 'ascetic' but I like your version better.

[Rhadamanth]

I thought these most applied to what we were discussing, don't ask me why. I'd add to that Thousand Thousand Halls one that likely the labyrinth "the Dunyain constructed" is probably just the Nonmen Mansion. It may even join to Ishterebinth somehow. I imagine the Dunyain wouldn't tell their initiates that it was built by another intelligent species.

I figured this as well save I'd add that the Dunyain construction was probably modifications to the existing structures to test various abilities. One reflection from Kellhus mentions some sort of mathematical insight was necessary to solve one part, IIRC.

Edit to answer Razor: In my paperback copy of TTT, it actually says "ecstatic" and not ascetic. I thought that was weird as well so maybe it's a typo. :dunno:

You'd have to check other versions to see if that's true as well. It's under Dunyain in the TTT glossary.

[Madness]

It's not a typo.

Ecstatic:

|ekˈstatik|

adjective

1 feeling or expressing overwhelming happiness or joyful excitement : ecstatic fans filled the stadium.

2 involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence : an ecstatic vision of God.

noun

a person subject to mystical experiences.

Lol, though every time I quote a dictionary, I just remember my linguistics professor, who used to work for Oxford Dictionary, telling us "people like me - she's a self-proclaimed eccentric - decide what words become part of the 'objective' English lexicon, which has a great deal of effect on our worldviews. It should not be used as final arbiter for anything." Great Prof.

[Curethan]

You should read the Dunyain excerpt, Curethan. I wouldn't say that because the Dunyain chose to disclude sorcery and history, that they made the right decision.

I don't get ya man. I was making the point that their 'faith' is based on philosophic principles that cut to the core of how things actually work in Earwa. Without history and sorcery they are free to get to grips with the metaphysical 'science' of the world.

Correct decision or not they have certainly made progress with their 3 founding principles, an otherwise blank slate and eugenics .

[Rhadamanth]

It's not a typo.

Ecstatic:

|ekˈstatik|

adjective

1 feeling or expressing overwhelming happiness or joyful excitement : ecstatic fans filled the stadium.

2 involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence : an ecstatic vision of God.

noun

a person subject to mystical experiences.

Lol, though every time I quote a dictionary, I just remember my linguistics professor, who used to work for Oxford Dictionary, telling us "people like me - she's a self-proclaimed eccentric - decide what words become part of the 'objective' English lexicon, which has a great deal of effect on our worldviews. It should not be used as final arbiter for anything." Great Prof.

I looked up the definition as well and I can see why it was used. I suppose there were a lot of crazy cults that showed up around the time of the No-God and the fall of the North. It does seem weird that the Dunyain might have descended from one of those rather than an "ascetic" cult. They seem to be the exact opposite. Then again maybe their founders had an experience of "mystic self-transcendence" which led them to refute everything they knew.

[Curethan]

There were a lot of crazy cults in the ancient mediterranean too.