Judging Eye IX (spoilers)

[Calibandar]

Putting things together, I am 95% certain it is Nin-Ciljiras.

1) There is the Bakker quote which confirms him to be in AE. This doesn't have to mean he is Cleric per se, but it greatly increases that chance.

2) We know from Pat that we learn more about Ishterebinth ( at last). That info will come to us told, rather than shown, and in that, I think it more likely to come from Nin-Ciljiras than the greatest traitor of them all, Nin'janin. Again, this does not necessarily exclude Nin'janin, but the odds are in Nin-Ciljiras' favour.

3) It would be just like Bakker to do yet another Tolkien homage on us and have Cleric as a sort of Aragorn-as-Strider figure, travelling under a secret identity, to later be revealed as perhaps the last best hope of his race. Nin-Ciljiras, "The last surviving Nonmen King" ( TTT appendix) would fit very well here, moreso than the greatest rat in Nonmen history.

So yeah, it's Nin-Ciljiras, and we will know for sure in a month or so.

Nerdanel,

It is certainly not Mekeritrig, because he is a character and a threat all of his own already. I don't think it would be him for storytelling reasons, and of course the fact that like most others here, I am sure Achamian would have spotted him if he was Mek. So no, definitly not Mek, 100% sure of that. I am sure we will see Mekeritrig again in the story, in a fascinating role, but he is not Cleric. Similarly, having Moenghus now enter into the story again makes no sense as far as story arcs go, and Bakker won't do it. Cnaiur, I could see a very, very small opening for him to return, though I don't see that happening myself. But certainly not Moenghus.

[Calibandar]

Oh and does anyone else think that is Daniel Day Lewis / Bill The Butcher from Gangs of New York on the cover of the WLW US and UK editions? Eerie similarity.

link

[Madness]

Cu'jara Cinmoi is beyond Seswatha, therefore, Achamian's Ken. So are Nin'janjin and Nin'Ciljiras.

By the Third Sight/Judging Eye logic, for whatever reason, Dunyain mentality/soul actually shine with the closest proportions to the God's. Moenghus and Kellhus to the Cishaurim and, possibly, Mimira, look to be the greatest of souls.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who doesn't believe Bakker's quote is misleading themselves. Bakker himself expressed regret at revealing to us Mekeritrig's identity. He has probably revealed things without realizing as someone above said.

You can twist things like Razor said but then you are probably just wishing your speculation was correct. It makes sense. Mith asks, specifically both the Aspect-Emperor novels, and Cu'jara Cinmoi says yes. Bakker's not gonna make the AE a trilogy to frontload it with new content. That will be an afterthought which is why the series now extends into the Unholy Consult. I don't think TJE was the late addition.

Cleric is Nin'Ciljiras.

Not all Isterebinth Nonmen are Erratic, some are. Not all Erratics join the Consult, some do. Perhaps, Cleric managed to escape Aurang's eye within Isterebinth but then didn't have a plan, or else someone (Consult, Kellhus, Dunyain - whichever Meta-Architect you like) is directing the confused Nonman into Achamian's path.

God damn. Lol, finally all our speculation pays off, for once, and many of you just seem to want to throw it away.

There is no other Nonman character in AE and I don't think we're going to experience anyone more center stage than Cleric. Also fits in with what, Calibandar just wrote, and I've always trusted and enjoyed his speculation.

[Madness]

Lmao, seeing the people on this thread right now makes me wish there was a chat. Also,

EDIT ABOVE: There is no other Nonman character in TJE and I don't think we're going to experience any Nonman more center stage than Cleric in AE.

[Happy Ent]

(moved to Judging Eye X)

[Nerdanel]

Why not? He regularly recognizes Mek in his dreams (and there were other erratics that served the Consult), he mentions that he doesn't specifically recognize this one (and he expects to do so), he's one of the biggest authorities on Nonmen alive, and most importantly Cleric does not have the scarring that he should.

There is a scene in Cil-Aujas where we learn that the Nonmen look all alike to humans. As for Achamian in the dream, he knows that Mekeritrig is Mekeritrig based on the situation and possibly what Mekeritrig is wearing, not his facial features. Another Nonman Quya could have taken Mekeritrig's place with Achamian/Seswatha being none the wiser, but there would have been no reason whatsoever for that kind of thing. Seswatha was Mekeritrig's prisoner and it's unknown if any other Consult Nonmen were even in the area. Being an authority on Nonmen does not help Achamian in recognizing Cleric if Cleric doesn't use his real name and avoids revealing certain things about his past.

There is no evidence that Nonmen are are able to get scars in their skin. When you consider how long Mekeritrig has been alive, would Kellhus really have been the first ever to scar him? Similarly, how likely is it that no one ever gave Cleric a facial scar, even when he was young and unskilled?

And I have no idea why Nin-Ciljiras wouldn't tell Achamian his real name or why Nin-Ciljiras would travel to the Three Seas and hunt Sranc with humans. I think Cleric must be a notorious character, and that means either Nin'janjin or Mekeritrig, or like I think, a character who has variously gone by both Nin'janjin and Mekeritrig.

I can totally see Nin'Ciljiras as a new minor character in the next book. The Great Ordeal is marching in the general direction of Ishterebinth, so it makes sense for the Nonmen there to start paying attention. After all, the humans could be aiming at them.

The Aragorn analogue in these books is Kellhus.

[Madness]

Ent, you are awesome. Solid deconstruction. I don't know if all of Mimira's POV's are present tense? That is what Bakker does in the Cil-Aujas, though isn't it?

Nerdanel, I agree with everything you are saying except the great thing about Cleric is that Bakker can have him selectively forget, everything that we deem important from a reader perspective. I'm sure we'll get another rousing sermon from Cleric on the Slog to Sauglish, a couple battles with roaming Sranc, and Achamian wondering the entire way what Cleric's memories mean and why Mimira has the Judging Eye.

I mean, Bakker uses the same plot mechanism with the Dreams. It's a fantastic little fictive device. Slowly, reveal the great history and story of what's been going on out of perspective. Why wouldn't he use it with Cleric's memory?

Love the idea of cherchez la Dunyain, btw. Akka would really draw major plot factors like flies, if Geraus' wife were Her, eh?

[Happy Ent]

Love the idea of cherchez la Dunyain, btw. Akka would really draw major plot factors like flies, if Geraus' wife were Her, eh?

Hah! No, that’s too out there even for me. My suspicion is merely that Tish was planted by Kellhus when he began to condition the ground for Mimara’s arrival, the trip to Marrow, and his chance meeting with the Skin Eaters.

[Amun]

I don't know if all of Mimira's POV's are present tense? That is what Bakker does in the Cil-Aujas, though isn't it?

I'm fairly certain all of Mimara's POVs are in the present tense.

[Rhadamanth]

Lmao, seeing the people on this thread right now makes me wish there was a chat. Also,

EDIT ABOVE: There is no other Nonman character in TJE and I don't think we're going to experience any Nonman more center stage than Cleric in AE.

There is a chat. It's for the whole board, though. I've been there and so has Trisk. http://thechatboard65972.yuku.com/directory

[Finn]

3) It would be just like Bakker to do yet another Tolkien homage on us and have Cleric as a sort of Aragorn-as-Strider figure, travelling under a secret identity, to later be revealed as perhaps the last best hope of his race. Nin-Ciljiras, "The last surviving Nonmen King" ( TTT appendix) would fit very well here, moreso than the greatest rat in Nonmen history.

I like this theory. Generally, I think theories that point to genre riffing and/or intertextual riffing (Tolkien/McCarthy) are more convincing wrt Bakker. I do think that's how he works.

On the other hand, there's no reason for Cleric to be Nin-Ciljiras in this scenario. He could be any powerful non-man who is not Ninja or Mek.

By the way, I wouldn't really have a problem with it being Nin-Ciljiras. As long as it's not Ninja or Mek, I'm happy.

It makes sense. Mith asks, specifically both the Aspect-Emperor novels, and Cu'jara Cinmoi says yes. Bakker's not gonna make the AE a trilogy to frontload it with new content. That will be an afterthought which is why the series now extends into the Unholy Consult. I don't think TJE was the late addition.

I'm pretty sure that exchange was about publication dates.

[Brennan]

Isn't Mekeritrig the name given to Mek by men? His nonman name is Cet'ingira and he was a part of the tutelage, and while we all know that the nonmen were not crazy about Cu'jara Cinmoi I don't think that they would allow the guy who murdered him and betrayed them in the middle of a war back into their midst. Which would have had to been the case if Mek=Nin'janjin.

[Madness]

Good call on your last point, Finn. Granted but I still stand by what I've in regards to Cleric's identity. Good call, Sir Brennan.

Ent, do you care if anyone posts TJE chapter reviews in your thread if we choose to partake in the reread?

[Spring Bass]

Nin-Ciljiras, "The last surviving Nonmen King" ( TTT appendix) would fit very well here, moreso than the greatest rat in Nonmen history.

Again, the TTT glossary has Nil-Giccas listed as the last surviving Nonmen King of Ishterebinth, not Nil-Ciljiras. So either it's someone else, or Nil-Giccas is going under a different name (or the TTT glossary is wrong in terms of story information).

[Happy Ent]

Ent, do you care if anyone posts TJE chapter reviews in your thread if we choose to partake in the reread?

I would be delighted. I made a separate thread for that purpose exactly.

[Madness]

Why do we assume that Cleric is despised by his race, Triskele?

Maybe, Nin-Giccas has died at somepoint between PON and AE, GB? Bakker has mentioned that TTT Appendix is mostly in terms of the Earwa's present state and its history.

EDIT: K, thanks, Ent.

[Nerdanel]

I don't get why Mekeritrig as Cleric or Mekeritrig as Nin'janjin is so disliked.

My suggested it-makes-sense-after-all: Cet'ingira is a Nonman who takes the name of Nin'janjin when he becomes the king of Viri. The Inchoroi make their crash landing nearby, Cûjara-Cinmoi conquers Viri, etc., etc. Nin'janjin gets to kill Cûjara-Cinmoi in the end, but the Inchoroi start losing, so Nin'janjin switches sides. Cet'ingira is not exactly the most popular person around, but the king of Cil-Aujas agrees to take him in. Nevertheless, Cet'ingira's unpopularity means that his stay is not a particularly happy one. After the Breaking of the Gates and the sack of Cil-Aujas, he takes part in the Nonman Tutelage and, his hidden Erratic tendencies growing as the years pass, eventually leads the Mangaecca to Golgotterath and teaches them something of what he learned with the Inchoroi. When his role as a member of the Consult finally comes to light, humans give him the name Mekeritrig.

That's not getting into the schemes I think Mekeritrig has going on.

In TJE Achamian thinks he is betraying the others to their deaths. Maybe he's not the only one in the group who has that sort of thoughts...

[lokisnow]

Nin is not Mek.

That is all.

[Nerdanel]

Nin is not Mek.

That is all.

Do you happen to have any arguments about why you are so certain about that?

[Kalbear]

If the only nonman we ever, ever have any interaction with is Mek that's going to suck and is hugely lazy. Plus it means you have to wonder what in the hell Akka is smoking that he didn't recognize the most famous nonman of the apocalypse. Seriously.