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Judging Eye IX (spoilers)


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I would agree with your second paragraph.

For the first question, I can only assume if we know for sure that a full-blooded female Dunyain shows up, maybe she already has been showcased in the story and we just don't know. I wouldn't necessarily say that she has to show up from Ishual, right?

That gets me thinking. I really don't think we should assume that the Dunyain are completely isolated. They certainly go out of the way to make that appear so to their students but perhaps at some level the Pragma are already out, getting involved in the world. Is it so hard to believe that there are Dunyain out there like Skin-Spies, with far more control than Kellhus in maintaining a low profile.

Not to mention sorcery and other Dunyainic x-factors.

EDIT: I am not a supporting a "the Dunyain orchestrated everything," viewpoint lol. Just perhaps that they are more involved than let on.

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I think I'm going to start a re-read soon to refresh my memory. I used to be able to cite passages, no problems.

Yeah, at some point in the trilogy, generic, Aurang muses that they've lost all their spies in Kian and that it was unacceptable to have the Consult blind to almost half the Three Seas.

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Actually, this was brought up recently.

For immediate query, Kellhus and the Dunyain students must get some version of "the World believed Sorcery existed." I mean, the quote from the prologue in TDTCB goes something like "Sorcery. But it's not possible," - Kellhus is running from Mekeritrig. Obviously, if Kellhus didn't have some notion of sorcery he'd say something like "wtf?"

As to the Dunyain's isolation. I agree with everything you highlight, Triskele, except those same reasons make me think that the Pragma must know more. I mean, if you want to assure your isolation, I don't think depending on your exile's discretion is the best, or most Dunyain, option. The wilderness "broke," to the Dunyain, Moenghus after an outing of only a few days hunting Sranc. Why wouldn't they just kill him, rather then exiling him. Hell, they obviously have no moral qualms using the "defectives." Then they send Kellhus out, for all purposes looking like they're going to forget these two exiles as soon as Kellhus clears the horizon. Doesn't make too much sense to me, if self-preservation is really what they are after, considering Kellhus or Moenghus could return with the World, you know. Makes me think it's even more likely that the Dunyain are at least watching to make sure their mini-void is secure.

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All quality speculation. Clearly, a good day to be bored and unscheduled.

Oh sure, the men of the Great Ordeal completely believe that they are on a mission to save the world by destroying the Consult.

I think that this one of the most obvious themes Bakker is toying with. I mean, clearly, most authors in SFF tend to have manipulations and conspiracies happening but, I feel, Bakker is trying to bring it down to more individual understandings. How we're all duped? I would assume that almost everyone is, unbeknownest to them, somewhere, doing something, for someone else. I would also expect that this underlying motif, among others, is up for some novel twists. I mean, isn't what this Grin, Theo, and Assembled authors debate is about? Whether or not, literature of the Fantasy genre, should attempt and compel new types of semantic mechanism? Fantasy, above all other garbage, actually pushing boundaries?

Every character is quite possibly then accomplishing ends not their own.

Achamian, on your list, brought this to mind because as the wildest card in the bunch, he's most likely to be totally anticipated or totally not. Kellhus almost definitely has some hand in his mission.

Zuem, as well, you can move in with Fanayal. In Pat's review, he mentions a POV character that has come to suggest Holy Zuem might back the Bandit Paridijah. He's an emissary to Esmenet to do exactly that, start that process.

The last of Earwa's Nonmen will factor in and, apparently, are understood to a greater extent in WLW.

I'll have to chop this down for the moment, you've just blasted me into the land of Bakker theories.

I always like to suggest that Kellhus, as a true Dunyain, is after the World's fundaments. The Tekne is all that remains to him. I mean, guys, I view this as essentially a Dunyain getting his hands on Science in Earwa lol. Give quantum physics or biological genetics to Dunyain, among other things, and I'm sure we're in a for a ride. Still think he's the No-God in the First Apocalypse. Then again, I also used to think that Achamian would try and go to Ishterebinth and find the Nonmen Gnosis. I underestimated his anger.

EDIT: There used to be theories about what Achamian would do if he found Ishual. Like if they actually didn't have sorcery and he just crushed them with abstractions. Maybe they'll just attack him outright. Something huge that we're not considering though happens in Sauglish though. Achamian figures out he's Seswatha?

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Actually, this was brought up recently.

For immediate query, Kellhus and the Dunyain students must get some version of "the World believed Sorcery existed." I mean, the quote from the prologue in TDTCB goes something like "Sorcery. But it's not possible," - Kellhus is running from Mekeritrig. Obviously, if Kellhus didn't have some notion of sorcery he'd say something like "wtf?"

As to the Dunyain's isolation. I agree with everything you highlight, Triskele, except those same reasons make me think that the Pragma must know more. I mean, if you want to assure your isolation, I don't think depending on your exile's discretion is the best, or most Dunyain, option. The wilderness "broke," to the Dunyain, Moenghus after an outing of only a few days hunting Sranc. Why wouldn't they just kill him, rather then exiling him. Hell, they obviously have no moral qualms using the "defectives." Then they send Kellhus out, for all purposes looking like they're going to forget these two exiles as soon as Kellhus clears the horizon. Doesn't make too much sense to me, if self-preservation is really what they are after, considering Kellhus or Moenghus could return with the World, you know. Makes me think it's even more likely that the Dunyain are at least watching to make sure their mini-void is secure.

They exiled Moenghus because it was the easiest thing to do and risked the least contamination. Instead of going out and making contact with him, they simply didn't open the doors for him and ignored him till he went away.

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Cleric definitely is a badass mofo. He is the most powerful character we've seen on screen, except I think Kellhus is going to be pretty crazy when we see what he's accomplished for personal power in twenty years.

Ishterebinth is still a functioning Mansion. In the TTT excerpts and, ATB (According to Bakker), it suggests that these Nonmen might not be completely Erratic. Also, uber powerful, as we've seen with both Mekeritrig and Cleric - Mekeritrig especially I think was holding back. If Kellhus had displayed a hint of sorcery, he'd probably have been killed.

EDIT: Shryke, I think that is a huge assumption on your part. I don't know anywhere it even suggests that they "just didn't open the doors for him." What is was was carelessness, no matter what, on the part of the Dunyain, unless they have an eye on his eventual going-ons.

If they didn't contact him after, how'd they judge he was "broken". I think that's supposed to be the first time that happens in all of Dunyainic history. They at least told Kellhus he couldn't come back.

Sorry about the add on Edit post here.

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EDIT: Shryke, I think that is a huge assumption on your part. I don't know anywhere it even suggests that they "just didn't open the doors for him." What is was was carelessness, no matter what, on the part of the Dunyain, unless they have an eye on his eventual going-ons.

If they didn't contact him after, how'd they judge he was "broken". I think that's supposed to be the first time that happens in all of Dunyainic history. They at least told Kellhus he couldn't come back.

Sorry about the add on Edit post here.

Actually, I think they mention that they just seal the door in his face. And they probably just assume he's broken. There's no need to check on that front. He went outside, he's contaminated.

Beyond that, your assertion of "carelessness" doesn't make any sense. The Dunyain would presume that he'd still be mostly Dunyain. He would still be working towards the same goal. Hell, he probably understood and agreed with their decision. They have no reason to believe he'd want to come back and interfere with the project. Assuming he even survives.

And they are right in that. Moenghus doesn't disturb Ishual until he absolutely has to. He only does it to get Kellhus so he can stop the Consult. And he asserts, right to the end, that he is still Dunyain. He still shares their goals. He has no reason to want to stop or disrupt the project.

As to why he wants to stop the Consult, that's an interesting question. He either doesn't want the human race made extinct (which wouldn't seem to fit since Kellhus assertion that the human race should survive is what makes Moenghus think he's gone mad) or, more likely imo, because if people can't have kids, the Dunyain project fails.

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Beyond that, your assertion of "carelessness" doesn't make any sense. The Dunyain would presume that he'd still be mostly Dunyain. He would still be working towards the same goal. Hell, he probably understood and agreed with their decision. They have no reason to believe he'd want to come back and interfere with the project. Assuming he even survives.

For a group who have no issue allowing a member to mature physically before interning them indefinitely so they can read the muscles under their skin, might just as easily kill Moenghus. It's not like their psyches will be tampered with worse by one or the other. Though, I agree with your points concerning Moenghus. He doesn't disturb The Project.

Its funny but what you say about the stillborn makes complete sense. The Dunyain ultimately have to fear the No-God's return. If only for the Project's continuation.

Now, I will argue, that Kellhus is ultimately fulfilling the Project. He just needed the actual fundamental variables of the World. The Dunyain are living and working under incomplete parameters. Kellhus is, possibly, not.

Can we argue that the No-God satisfies the Dunyain requirements for a self-moving soul?

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Look, I'm the first to suggest that Moenghus has an extensive network at the time of the Holy War. I think, Nerdanel, that you should re-read Moenghus and Kellhus' conversation in TTT as I'm pretty sure many things you think aren't brought up, are in fact.
Actually, NErdanel knows they address almost everything; their response is simply that they're lying liars who lie.

Can we argue that the No-God satisfies the Dunyain requirements for a self-moving soul?
How? It is spawned by others to do a very specific thing that it cannot understand. It doesn't even know who or what it is. It constantly asks people to tell it what they see because it can't. It's blinded, confused, and otherwise undirected. It's almost the opposite of one.
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It's interesting to think about. Maybe no one but Seswatha, and the Mandate, have heard the No-God say those words. Perhaps, its really personal?

I mean, we know from the TTT excerpts and the Story So Far that The Consult worships the No-God and that it was allegedly summoned. Some of us think its controlled by the Consult and some vice versa. Its debatable that its a force. What if it is actually an entity, or Agency, one with personal utility? What if the No-God does more than the Whirlwind thing, like walks around the Ark, and has conversations with his generals? Goes cruising in the Carapace?

We've assumed a lot about its nature.

What if it's a personal entreaty from an old friend, Achamian and Kellhus at the end of their long journey together? What have I become, Achamian?

I really enjoy Bakker's books.

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I mean, we know from the TTT excerpts and the Story So Far that The Consult worships the No-God and that it was allegedly summoned.
I don't think that it's ever stated that the Consult 'worships' the No-God. The Sclyvendi do (or at least they think it's their god) but that doesn't make the Consult do anything.

I still think that the No-God is Kellhus - both past and present - and one of the things it can do as part of being whatever it is is to ignore causality. And not just ignore it like a self-moving soul would, I'm talking about being apart from the rest of time. When Kellhus becomes it, he becomes it at all times in all places.

But I think that it being a self-moving soul seems a bit...unlikely. Circumstance most assuredly did not bend to it. THings absolutely did come before to influence it - a whole host of things.

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For you, Razor, I've pulled out the books.

TTT Appendix, No-God entry:

The entity summoned by the Consult to bring about the Apocalypse. Very little is known about the No-God, save that he utterly lacks remorse or compassion and possesses terrible power . . . Because of his armour (the so-called Carapace) . . . it is not even known whether he is a creature of flesh or of spirit. According to Mandate scholars, the Inchoroi worship him as their saviour, as do, according to some, the Scylvendi.

I still think that the No-God is Kellhus - both past and present - and one of the things it can do as part of being whatever it is is to ignore causality . . . When Kellhus becomes it, he becomes it at all times in all places.

I like this and I feel like something similar is going on with Achamian and Seswatha's dreams. He becomes him and it, like, always was.

Maybe the No-God is Kellhus' negative realization of a self-moving soul. He learns the Tekne but makes a mistake? Maybe Achamian actually becomes a self-moving soul by these definition.

Ah, I'm getting ahead of myself.

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Supposedly the No-God was summoned, so this implies the use of sorcery, probably some form of daimotic sorcery. But when Achamian learns about the skin-spies, he comes to the conclusion that the Consult has remastered the Tekne and can resurrect the No-God. So he needs to be summoned and... what? trapped in a body that can only be created by the Tekne?

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I think, Amenhotep, that's a jump of logic on our parts to assume that sorcery is necessarily involved.

For my money, though, I think that the No-God involves something like a couple parts Tekne - Technology, a few parts Aporos, likely some Gnosis as the No-God wasn't something the Inchoroi tried during the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, hence the Mangaecca add something new to the mix.

As a further jump in logic, perhaps, Kellhus convinces the Consult of god knows what, joins them, and have them send him back in time as the No-God - or perhaps, something like Razor hints at - he words it better than I but it's in line with my beliefs.

The Inchoroi and the Consult of the First Apocalypse don't even necessarily have to understand that they helped Kellhus in the future.

It's all craziness.

EDIT: Yeah, I agree, Razor, about Aurax. Though, as fucked up as it sounds, they probably have some pretty indepth and developed beliefs to have a thousands words for ejaculation and such an appreciation of the sensual material world. Sounds like something to be duped by the Dunyain lol.

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I don't know what else "summon" means if not the use of some form of sorcery, though. Who knows?

On the topic of No-God worship, I don't know if the Consult worship him or not, but in TWP (first chapter) the dragon Skafra seems to worship the No-God.

"Thou art overthrown, sorcerer. Thy tribe hath perished, dashed like a potter's vessel by our fury. (...) Wilt thou not repent thy folly? Wilt thou not abase thyself before our Lord?"

"As do you, mighty Skafra? As the exalted Tyrant of Cloud and Mountain abases himself?"

membranes flickered across the dragon's quicksilver eyes. A blink. "I am not a God."

Nautzera smiled grimly. Seswatha said, "Neither is your lord."

Great stamping of limbs and nashing of iron teeth. (...)

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Something else I just thought of if anyone has any comments....presumably the great ordeal will continue its march into the old north. Are they going to go to Atrithau? Would they need to conquer it? Would anyone there remember Kellhus? Would they have to conquer it without sorcery because it's on arcane ground or whatever?

I wondered about this too but I think Atrithau would be out of the way for the Great Ordeal. I wonder if they're gonna swing out wide around the Sea of Neleost or just find a way across the river that connects it to the ocean. A bridge maybe? They must've had bridges, just wonder if any are left. If we assume the Ordeal will pass somewhere near Sauglish, they have to find some way to cross. If they go almost straight toward Golgotterath from Sauglish, they'll be very close to Ishual.

Also Madness, you wondered how Kell knew of sorcery when he met Mek. He learned that from Leweth, the trapper not a briefing from the Pragma. He figured it was just one of Leweth's stories, that's why he was like, wtf, sorcery? Then he says another of Leweth's stories turns out true, like the Nonmen.

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Good call on Leweth, Rhamadanth. Very true. That's a point against the Dunyain Pragma knowing of sorcery.

The evocative depiction of the wastes of the Istyuli Plains, the primeval forest known as the Mop, the ruined remains of Kûniüri, where the first Ordeal set out against Golgotterath, continue to make the universe of Eärwa resound with depth. Add to that the fact that the narrative and certain events shine some light on the kingdom of Zeüm and its traditions, as well as that of the Nonmen kingdom of Injor-Niyas and its mysterious capital of Ishterebinth, and you have proof that Bakker's creation is head and shoulder above most SFF settings on the market today.

The above is part of Pat's review. I'm can't remember in TJE but I'm pretty sure somewhere it roughly outlines the Ordeal's plan. Use the supply route from Sakarpus and strike out and forage at some point. The map in TJE is different from TTT. Makes me think that the Ordeal will pass through Sauglish, even Tryse, and bridge the river from the Sea of Neleost; taking them real close to Ishual on this map. I don't think they'd go around, especially because even conservative estimates by Kellhus' council plan on them having defeated the Consult before winter sets in so they can camp in Golgotterath.

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It's so weird to me that I find myself in this position. I've hardly read any fantasy beyond Lord of the Rings, ASOIAF, and Bakker, yet I find waiting for this book to come out to be more painful than the last few weeks before Christmas as a little kid.

Haha, me too. I preordered my copy from Amazon a few days ago when I saw it was pretty cheap. I can't wait for the beginning of April. I know it'll probably answer a few questions but it'll make me have a thousand more. There are so few series that are good enough to inspire such feelings in me.

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