Wisconsin Union Busting Bill/Protests

[All-for-Joffrey]

Pre-warning: this is a drunk post.

So I've been meaning to make a thread about this all week but after school (papers+exams), 25-30 hours of work, protesting at the capitol (I slept at the capitol building Tuesday but the Republican legislators just walked out before I got my two minutes as part of the "citizen's filibusterer") and maintaining healthy college drinking patterns I just haven't had the time until now after bar time on Thursday night. Anyway, the governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, is essentially trying to bust unions by eliminating the collective bargaining rights of public unions within his new budget proposal. I should note that Walker is not only a drop-out from Marquette, but was actually kicked out because of cheating. Now I certainly don't approve that Walker is tossing out corporate tax cuts left and right, especially when he's claiming that one of his primary goals is to curb the state deficit. Reading the budget proposal, sure some unions are going to go ape shit about it but it largely makes sense giving the circumstances and there's nothing overly-controversial about his proposed changes and I think that it easily could have passed if he had negotiated with unions and did not include the portions that get rid of collective bargaining. Frankly it's quite horrifying and several TAs/teachers are threatening to leave the state, which will ultimately hurt the state's education system more than the overpowered teacher's union is. Moving to the opposite end of the spectrum that essentially harms 100 years worth of progress for worker's rights hardly seems like the answer and given Walker's track record and vendetta against unions I firmly believe he will take things further and maybe even go after private unions next (if he didn't intend to why bother creating all this controversy with union busting when he could have otherwise easily had his budget proposal passed).

The other issue that is part of the proposal, one that hits closest to home for me personally, is that he wants to break UW-Madison off from the rest of the UW system. Although it would give the university more autonamy and give us more control over our budget, the reduced state funds would inevitably raise tuition for students (the reason I came to Madison in the first place, and I'm damn glad I did, was because it was the best school I could afford) -- not to mention the fact that Walker would get to appoint the new administrators which would affect our stem-cell research programs, which are some of the top in the country. The Chancellor, Biddy Martin, is in favor of this but I can personally attest to the fact that Biddy Martin is a classist bitch -- having served her a number of times as I work for a catering department through the university.

The Democratic state legislators have fled the state and are in hiding in order to avoid giving Congress a quorom to pass the bill. All we need are three more Republicans to vote against the bill and the protests are only gaining momentum. I'm drunk and overly emotionally right now but I've honestly never been more proud of my fellow badgers, my fellow Madisonites and the citizens of Wisconsin.

This issue is quickly gaining national attention (and even British attention as it was featured prominently on the BBC) and there are indications that other red states are going to push for similar union-busting measures and are closely watching Wisconsin. It's just mind-boggling to me how politicians can be so flippant about abolishing decades of labor rights. Yes, it's clear that some unions need to be reformed but completely eliminating their collective bargaining rights and making it illegal for them to go on strike his hardly the answer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us/18wisconsin.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

Democrats, along with the thousands of workers and protesters, oppose the bill, which would weaken unions by limiting collective bargaining for state employees and many local employees, including teachers, to base wages, and would require workers to pay more for pensions and health care. Without enough votes to stop the bill’s passage, Democratic senators apparently concluded that leaving the building would stop the vote from taking place.

“The plan is to try and slow this down because it’s an extreme piece of legislation that’s tearing this state apart,” Senator Jon Erpenbach, one of the missing Democrats, told The Associated Press by telephone. (He refused, of course, to say where he was.)

By noon, the sergeant-at-arms, Ted Blazel, was climbing past the crowds in the Capitol, searching for senators through the mazelike hallways, in offices, under desks — a task he has rarely been called to carry out.

“Nothing yet,” Mr. Blazel said at one point, his forehead glistening with sweat.

By dusk, Senate Republican leaders had decided to adjourn, at least temporarily, as supposed sightings of Democrats — and rumors of supposed sightings of Democrats — were alleged by seemingly everyone. Among the claims: They had been seen leaving on a bus altogether. They were in Iowa. Or Illinois. Or both.

“They’re in Rockford!” Mr. Fitzgerald called out excitedly at one point, as he rushed between chambers. Some of the Democrats conducted interviews from what they described as “secure locations,” and others posted messages on social networking sites.

Over three days, protesters’ backpacks, sleeping bags, water bottles and homemade signs have come to jam the marble halls of this Capitol, and on Thursday evening the rallies against the bill grew. People screamed: “Shut it down! Shut it down!” Drums pounded. Students, some barefoot, danced. Extra law enforcement workers now pepper the building, trying to guide officials through the thick, chanting crowds.

Many among the protesters said that they had no plans to leave, and that they would wait, as long as it took, to end the proposal, which was introduced only a week ago by Scott Walker, the new Republican governor here. Regarding the claims by Mr. Walker that the changes were forced by gaping budget deficits, some protesters here question his figures and his motives.

On Wisconsin!

[sologdin]

maybe even go after private unions next

wagner act won't allow it, though taft-hartley & landrum-griffin do provide some tools for the cappy to restrict private union activity significantly.

[davos]

I've posted extensively about this in the politics thread.

My daughters' schools are closed because their teachers are down on the Capital Square protesting. I couldn't find childcare on such short notice so I'm having to take the day off myself. So I'm taking my girls there. They need to see this. Best civics lesson I could give them.

[Datepalm]

I've posted extensively about this in the politics thread.

My daughters' schools are closed because their teachers are down on the Capital Square protesting. I couldn't find childcare on such short notice so I'm having to take the day off myself. So I'm taking my girls there. They need to see this. Best civics lesson I could give them.

That is fantastic!

So, wait, WTF? What the hell is the point of a union without a CBA, exactly? Whats a private union?

[manmiles]

I've posted extensively about this in the politics thread.

My daughters' schools are closed because their teachers are down on the Capital Square protesting. I couldn't find childcare on such short notice so I'm having to take the day off myself. So I'm taking my girls there. They need to see this. Best civics lesson I could give them.

I'm not a Wisconsin citizen, my Fiancee and some very good friends of mine live over there, so maybe one day. I've been more emotioanlly invested in this than any politics in a long while. Go, go and fight for what is yours!

[TrackerNeil]

Give 'em hell, Wisconsin!

[Maltaran]

That is fantastic!

So, wait, WTF? What the hell is the point of a union without a CBA, exactly? Whats a private union?

I think the Americans use the terms public and private union to indicate unions for public-sector and private-sector workers respectively.

As to the first question, I suppose the union would still be able to provide support for disciplinary procedures and suchlike, but collective bargaining does seem to be the primary reason for their existence.

[Guest Raids]

I would like to know the background. There are budget problems, yes. Did the state come to the table with the unions to try to solve those problems, or not? If so, when did negotiations cease? Was the union's position basically "we don't care if we bankrupt the state, this is what's owed"?

Public unions definitely have different features than private unions. Private unions know - now, anyway - that you can't bite the hand that feeds you right off. It's not in your interest to bankrupt the employer. This is not really a concern for a union when the employer is a public entity.

So, I can see how there could be different rules for public and private unions. However, I do not see how that means that public employees cannot have collective bargaining rights.

Another thing I don't know or remember is how collective bargaining rights had to be granted by the state for public employees in the first place.

[Yagathai]

Hell yeah, AFJ, you guys are fighting the good fight. It's about time some of us lazy Americans got our fat asses off the couch, turned off Dancing with the Stars and did something constructive, like bring down capitalist institutions.

Seriously, if you're not on some kind of list, you really ought to be.

[Alexia]

I would like to know the background. There are budget problems, yes. Did the state come to the table with the unions to try to solve those problems, or not? If so, when did negotiations cease? Was the union's position basically "we don't care if we bankrupt the state, this is what's owed"?

No, no, and no. According to what's being reported in the press, the governor has not negotiated with the union at all and has said that there is nothing to negotiate.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Coco,

I think you are my favorite leftist.

;)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Pre-warning: this is a drunk post.

So I've been meaning to make a thread about this all week but after school (papers+exams), 25-30 hours of work, protesting at the capitol (I slept at the capitol building Tuesday but the Republican legislators just walked out before I got my two minutes as part of the "citizen's filibusterer") and maintaining healthy college drinking patterns I just haven't had the time until now after bar time on Thursday night. Anyway, the governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, is essentially trying to bust unions by eliminating the collective bargaining rights of public unions within his new budget proposal. I should note that Walker is not only a drop-out from Marquette, but was actually kicked out because of cheating. Now I certainly don't approve that Walker is tossing out corporate tax cuts left and right, especially when he's claiming that one of his primary goals is to curb the state deficit. Reading the budget proposal, sure some unions are going to go ape shit about it but it largely makes sense giving the circumstances and there's nothing overly-controversial about his proposed changes and I think that it easily could have passed if he had negotiated with unions and did not include the portions that get rid of collective bargaining. Frankly it's quite horrifying and several TAs/teachers are threatening to leave the state, which will ultimately hurt the state's education system more than the overpowered teacher's union is. Moving to the opposite end of the spectrum that essentially harms 100 years worth of progress for worker's rights hardly seems like the answer and given Walker's track record and vendetta against unions I firmly believe he will take things further and maybe even go after private unions next (if he didn't intend to why bother creating all this controversy with union busting when he could have otherwise easily had his budget proposal passed).

The other issue that is part of the proposal, one that hits closest to home for me personally, is that he wants to break UW-Madison off from the rest of the UW system. Although it would give the university more autonamy and give us more control over our budget, the reduced state funds would inevitably raise tuition for students (the reason I came to Madison in the first place, and I'm damn glad I did, was because it was the best school I could afford) -- not to mention the fact that Walker would get to appoint the new administrators which would affect our stem-cell research programs, which are some of the top in the country. The Chancellor, Biddy Martin, is in favor of this but I can personally attest to the fact that Biddy Martin is a classist bitch -- having served her a number of times as I work for a catering department through the university.

The Democratic state legislators have fled the state and are in hiding in order to avoid giving Congress a quorom to pass the bill. All we need are three more Republicans to vote against the bill and the protests are only gaining momentum. I'm drunk and overly emotionally right now but I've honestly never been more proud of my fellow badgers, my fellow Madisonites and the citizens of Wisconsin.

This issue is quickly gaining national attention (and even British attention as it was featured prominently on the BBC) and there are indications that other red states are going to push for similar union-busting measures and are closely watching Wisconsin. It's just mind-boggling to me how politicians can be so flippant about abolishing decades of labor rights. Yes, it's clear that some unions need to be reformed but completely eliminating their collective bargaining rights and making it illegal for them to go on strike his hardly the answer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/us/18wisconsin.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

On Wisconsin!

Don't we have elections to determine this kind of stuff?

If there is a basis to challenge the Governor's actions as being unconstitutional, feel free to file your lawsuit or whatever. Or feel free to start a recall position, impeachment proceedings, or whatever.

But personally, I think anyone physically obstructing elected officials to prevent them from performing duties they are constitutionally empowered to enact, and who are acting in accordance with recognized constitutional authority, can't complain if they get their skulls cracked at some point.

If Tea Partiers had mobbed the Capitol building to prevent Congress from voting on the ACA, this Board would have gone insane, accused them of being undemocratic thugs, etc. But they didn't. I suppose maybe they should have.

Hey, in all seriousness, I wouldn't be quite against a bit of the old ultra-violence to settle some of these issues anyway.

[Datepalm]

I think the Americans use the terms public and private union to indicate unions for public-sector and private-sector workers respectively.

As to the first question, I suppose the union would still be able to provide support for disciplinary procedures and suchlike, but collective bargaining does seem to be the primary reason for their existence.

I don't know the rules in the US - and i'm having a hard time finding them in reasonably succint form, actually - but here disciplinary procedures are anchored in the collective bargaining agreement, just like everything else. Without a CBA, all a union is is a social club or something. If you have no way of legally binding an employer to union demands, whats the point of making them in the first place?

[Merentha]

But personally, I think anyone physically obstructing elected officials to prevent them from performing duties they are constitutionally empowered to enact, and who are acting in accordance with recognized constitutional authority, can't complain if they get their skulls cracked at some point.

Who is doing either of these? Maybe I missed it on my four hours of sleep, but protesting outside of a building doesn't constitute physically obstructing access.

Yeah, the Democratic reps fleeing the state to avoid a vote is a bit dodgy.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

I would like to know the background. There are budget problems, yes. Did the state come to the table with the unions to try to solve those problems, or not? If so, when did negotiations cease? Was the union's position basically "we don't care if we bankrupt the state, this is what's owed"?

There weren´t before Walker handed out tax cuts as his first act as governor.

Budget surplus -> tax cuts -> budget emergency -> union busting.

[awesome possum]

If Tea Partiers had mobbed the Capitol building to prevent Congress from voting on the ACA, this Board would have gone insane, accused them of being undemocratic thugs, etc. But they didn't. I suppose maybe they should have.

First, you're wrong. No one is preventing the state congress from doing anything- except other members of the state congress.

Second, you're right. Tea Partiers would never rush to the capital to angrily protest something and do things like yell racial slurs to black senators and congressmen. Never. The Tea Party is so far above such actions.

As I told Tempra in the other thread: get real.

Hey, in all seriousness, I wouldn't be quite against a bit of the old ultra-violence to settle some of these issues anyway.

You'd lose. Horribly.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Who is doing either of these? Maybe I missed it on my four hours of sleep, but protesting outside of a building doesn't constitute physically obstructing access.

I don't have a problem with outside protestors either, but some broke through police barricades and went inside, cramming the halls, etc. That's not peaceably assembling. That's an attempt at physical initimidation.

Yeah, the Democratic reps fleeing the state to avoid a vote is a bit dodgy.

Well, if it's just a dumb political tactic to delay the vote for a few days, I agree it's dodgy, but I have less of a problem than I have with attempted phsyical intimidation.

I thought this was amusing:

Signs at Tuesday’s rally — which the AFL-CIO said attracted a crowd of 15,000 and which news outlets broadly reported drew more 10,000 state and local employees and their backers— referred to the governor as “Hosni Walker” and declared: “Protest Like an Egyptian.”

Another asked: “If Egypt Can Have Democracy, Why Can’t Wisconsin?”

When in fact, the protestors are the ones trying to stop the actions of the democratically-elected government. It's almost surreal. Your votes don't count "extra" just because you happen to be outraged about a result you don't like.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/158609/more-10000-protest-move-wisconsins-dictator-governor-destroy-public-sector-unions

[Lord of Oop North]

When in fact, the protestors are the ones trying to stop the actions of the democratically-elected government. It's almost surreal. Your votes don't count "extra" just because you happen to be outraged about a result you don't like.

So because these people cast their votes, and the election is over, they're supposed to sit the fuck down and shutup for the entire term? Please. Your right to speak and feel outraged doesn't stop at the ballot box. It has nothing to do with their votes counting 'extra'.

[Kouran]

If the best way to close the budget gap without new taxes is for government employees to take a pay cut, or reduction in pension matching then so be it. Frankly people that get government jobs, and I know we have a number on this board so please understand I am not attacking you in any way, should have to abide by the same rules as all of us in the private sector. My company froze all pay raises for the last 2 years, dropped all bonuses and will probably not have raises this year as well. We did this in an effort to reduce the number of layoffs.

So hey if the teachers et al in Wisconsin dont want to take a pay cut they can just get layed off. I would however start the layoffs at the top of those near retirement, thats a nice double dip since it gets rid of the highest salary people and stops you havign to pay off their pensions.

[lordofavalon]

If the best way to close the budget gap without new taxes is for government employees to take a pay cut, or reduction in pension matching then so be it. Frankly people that get government jobs, and I know we have a number on this board so please understand I am not attacking you in any way, should have to abide by the same rules as all of us in the private sector. My company froze all pay raises for the last 2 years, dropped all bonuses and will probably not have raises this year as well. We did this in an effort to reduce the number of layoffs.

So hey if the teachers et al in Wisconsin dont want to take a pay cut they can just get layed off. I would however start the layoffs at the top of those near retirement, thats a nice double dip since it gets rid of the highest salary people and stops you havign to pay off their pensions.

apparently in jan 2011 before the governor was sworn in, wisconsin had a budget surplus. in his first few weeks he passed tax cuts, and now the state has a deficit