Boy Refuses to Wrestle Girl

[AverageGuy]

The interesting thing to me in this story, is that there were two boys willing to wrestle two girls during this competition. What were the motivating factors for them?

Four boys. The girl who got the forfeit went 1-2, the other girl went 0-2. It was double elimination, and according to the articles the boy had come back to place third last year as a freshman. He still had a chance to equal that this year, so he wasn't actually giving up everything, either.

And whatever else you think about his motives, I'm another who doubts this boy was worried about losing to a girl. He came in third last year, had a record of 35-4 this year, and was seeded fifth here. First round, top seeds get those ranked towards the bottom, and he would've known that.

[naz]

I see both sides of the argument here. I was raised in a very competative family. As kids in my family you never expected to win a game unless you were actually better than your opponent. I was also raised to believe no matter what you never hit a girl/woman. If I was in the position of the first kid, I would have forfited as well. It might sound sexist, and maybe it is, but I simply couldnt bring myself to inflict physical punishment on a girl for sport.

I do however applaud the girls for making state, that is in no way a small thing.

This clearly illustrates my point number 3.

I was raised to believe that you never hit anyone, male or female. If you choose to suspend your hangup with 'hitting' someone in some situations, then it should apply to everyone. Otherwise, don't get into wrestling. The implication is that you're using wrestling to deal with agression in ways that otherwise are socially frowned upon. Which is the wrong reason to get into it, in my opinion.

I've never wrestled myself, but I have practiced martial arts, and in no way did we ever let up because the opponent was a girl. That would be a significant form of disrespect and dishonor to one's opponent, in a sport where these kinds of things are taken pretty seriously.

[Underfoot]

In Iowa, wrestling is HUGE. Both of the major state universities consistently do extremely well in the sport. I dare say it's bigger than football, and that's saying something.

This year is the first that a girl made it to state wrestling. They worked hard to get there, just like everyone else, and, like other posters have pointed out, they signed up for it. They knew what they were getting into, and the last thing they probably would have wanted was any kind of special treatment.

I understand why the boy wanted to forfeit, whether it was because of his faith or something else, but he really did Cassy Herkleman a disservice. If he had wrestled and defeated her, which it looks like he probably would have, she would have entered the consolation bracket and may have had a better shot.

I respect that Joel Northrup stuck to his guns despite the media spotlight, and I think he handled his decision in as classy way as possible. I just don't think that it was the right decision. :dunno:

[AverageGuy]

2. The issues shouldn't change simply because of their adolescence. This is the age in which we're supposed to be teaching them how to deal with these things. If they don't deal with them now, they won't be prepared to deal with them as adults.

If I come off as defensive here, sorry. My own history's obviously going to affect my view on the topic, but I figured disclosing it would lead to some weighing of my bias, so I've been trying to limit what I say to try to avoid too much bias. Okay, so.

There is a wrestling takedown that basically requires you to plant your face in your opponent's chest. It was my favorite takedown because, while it was risky if you were slow, if you did it just right, you could knock the wind out of whoever you were facing, could control the fall so they'd land on their back, and could get a quick pin.

At 14, I'd only recently ever gotten to second base. Now, I feel like you're right, the issues probably shouldn't change because of adolescence. But at the time I was hyperaware of the fact that it was wrong to touch boobs that weren't my girlfriend's. Thus, I feel there are reasons that adolescence comes into play besides simply violence against women.

I don't feel like I'm unprepared to deal with these issues as an adult. Nowadays, I have no problem planting my face in a woman's chest. On the other hand, you may have a point... I am still hyperaware of the fact that it's wrong to touch breasts that aren't my girlfriend's.

[TrueMetis]

My response to that is get the fuck over it. Your wrestling not trying to cop a feel. I mean if your worried about that why aren't you worried about the gayness of wrestling in general?

[AverageGuy]

Well, I figured that would be someone's response.

To your edit: I was less aware of men's bodies than women's. It didn't cross my mind as much.

Edit2: Gah. I keep on trying to say more, but it keeps on reading like I'm justifying myself rather than focusing on the topic. I'll leave it at two things. First, I still don't think it's a simple issue. Second, I think the best way to change things would be to have female wrestlers on more teams. If I'd had a girl to practice with before, I probably would've been better able to respond than I was when I found there was actually a girl in the 152 weight class, while my coach was telling me he wouldn't force guys to wrestle girls but I only had about a minute to decide. It may have been dumb, but, "What if people think I'm trying to cop a feel?" really was all I could think at the time.

[Underfoot]

Four boys. The girl who got the forfeit went 1-2, the other girl went 0-2.

Not to mention all the wrestlers Cassy and Megan faced just to get to state.

[naz]

Average Guy:

One of the lessons (arguably) that we want kids to learn from sports (esp. contact sports) is to learn how to use force, power, and aggressiveness in a way that disassociates these things from hostility and malevolence, and instead is about sportsmanship and athleticism.

In the same way, I would hope they also learn to disassociate them from sexuality. That's not to say that it won't happen. But it's something that most people would agree is a valuable lesson for adolescents to learn. To disassociate sex from the other myriad ways in which the opposite gender is to be perceived. If a girl wrestler fully expects a boy wrestler to not get hung up on having her boobs in his face so that they can both focus on the wrestling itself, then as an adult, she would likewise expect a man to not get hung up on her boobs when she's in the workplace or any other non-sexual environment in which the focus should remain on the non-sexual tasks at hand.

[TrueMetis]

Well, I figured that would be someone's response.

To your edit: I was less aware of men's bodies than women's. It didn't cross my mind as much.

Edit2: Gah. I keep on trying to say more, but it keeps on reading like I'm justifying myself rather than focusing on the topic. I'll leave it at two things. First, I still don't think it's a simple issue. Second, I think the best way to change things would actually be to have female wrestlers on more teams. If I'd had a girl to practice with before, I probably would've been better able to respond than I was when I found there was actually a girl in the 152 weight class, while my coach was telling me he wouldn't force guys to wrestle girls but I only had about a minute to decide. It may have been dumb, but, "What if people think I'm trying to cop a feel?" really was all I could think at the time.

For the like month I wrestled in High school my thoughts were focused on "I hope I don't lose really badly" then after the first tournament when exactly that happened my thoughts turned to "fuck it I quit." I trained occasionally with one of the girls on the team and what you were thinking didn't even cross my mind. Of course when I started to do jiu-jitsu I got awkward during an arm bar technique that requires you to put your hands on the other person chest, then immediately went "fuck it I'm just trying to learn the damn technique" and then just did the technique. Get hung up on that shit and you're just setting yourself up to lose. One of the girls in my jiu-jitsu class could kick my ass easily so I'm not about to let the fact that she's a girl change anything. It also helps that the jiu-jitsu I take is made to make size pretty much irrelevant.

[AverageGuy]

In the same way, I would hope they also learn to disassociate them from sexuality. That's not to say that it won't happen. But it's something that most people would agree is a valuable lesson for adolescents to learn. To disassociate sex from the other myriad ways in which the opposite gender is to be perceived. If a girl wrestler fully expects a boy wrestler to not get hung up on having her boobs in his face so that they can both focus on the wrestling itself, then as an adult, she would likewise expect a man to not get hung up on her boobs when she's in the workplace or any other non-sexual environment in which the focus should remain on the non-sexual tasks at hand.

Fair point. Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe that disassociation's something I could've done if I'd been even a couple years older, when I was a little more relaxed when dealing with the other sex and the idea of sex. Maybe. Easy to claim, impossible to be certain. It never did come up again.

For the like month I wrestled in High school my thoughts were focused on "I hope I don't lose really badly" then after the first tournament when exactly that happened my thoughts turned to "fuck it I quit." I trained occasionally with one of the girls on the team and what you were thinking didn't even cross my mind. Of course when I started to do jiu-jitsu I got awkward during an arm bar technique that requires you to put your hands on the other person chest, then immediately went "fuck it I'm just trying to learn the damn technique" and then just did the technique. Get hung up on that shit and you're just setting yourself up to lose. One of the girls in my jiu-jitsu class could kick my ass easily so I'm not about to let the fact that she's a girl change anything. It also helps that the jiu-jitsu I take is made to make size pretty much irrelevant.

Yeah, earlier practice with someone I knew would probably have made it easier to deal with. You're not starting out in the center of a ring with all eyes on you, the other person knows what you're doing, and pretty soon you get used to it.

Okay, I'm getting too caught up in this topic. I'm going to bow out for at least a day so I don't derail things. Further.

[Salome the Persian Witch]

I don't know, AverageGuy, at the risk of having to turn in my feminist card, I get what you're saying.

For context, I was the first girl in my province to play football. I wouldn't take "no" at the try-outs, kept at it, and when I knocked the 250 lb coach on his ass I got on the team. Full disclosure, the guys did everything they could to get me off the team - facemasking, sexual harassment, grabbing my breasts, following me home to harass me, putting guys 70-80 lbs heavier than me against me on line scrimmages etc. With all that, I still did it and would do it again. (It's actually a point of pride for me to know that it's quite common for girls to be on football teams now without the same crap).

But, you know, there is a part of me that thinks I wouldn't be that comfortable wrestling on a co-ed team. I know some of the pinning techniques & wrestling moves utilize points around the chest, and there's a lot of full body contact and slipping hands.

It's not about physical toughness or anything. And I believe (hope desperately) that times have changed where kids nowadays can think and act more like Thor (and others) suggest. Maybe I'm just on some deep down level a bit of a prude, have breasts that just get in the way all the time, or maybe I didn't have the privilege of having a good wrestling program to be a part of. But there's still something there for me....

[naz]

Salome:

That's the point - it's up to you. As long as you don't want to do it, you don't. But those girl wrestlers got over that and accepted whatever obstacles they thought might come with being a girl in a mostly-male sport. What makes you feel uncomfortable is apparently fine for them, so let's at least respect their decision. Likewise, when you played football - that would probably be too much for other girls to handle, but it was worth it for you, so you did it, and it only makes sense that your teammates and opponents should respect you enough to treat you like any other player. Granted, it sounds like you got treated worse, and that's bound to happen sometimes. But that doesn't take anything away from your participation.

eta: And I don't think you need to turn in your feminist card. Equal opportunity isn't just about having more girls participating. It's about giving girls the opportunity to participate. Whether they choose to or not is up to them.

[jurble]

If he doesn't want to wrestle a girl, that's his choice. If the girl wants to wrestle let her wrestle. I don't understand the problem here. The boy didn't say he thinks girls shouldn't compete, he said that he wouldn't wrestle a girl. It's his choice, can't force a man to wrestle - unless he's a slave, I suppose.

[MinDonner]

Peoples deeply held religious faith should not be mocked.

Why not? A stupid opinion is just as stupid if it's a deeply held religious belief or just something you read in a magazine at the dentist's. I'm not sure of the exact grounds of this guy's objection, but both "girls are delicate flowers that break easily at the hands of men" or "girls = SEX so it's dirty to grapple with them" are quite worthy of mockery.

[MercenaryChef]

thanks to everyone for their thoughts!

one interesting thing is so many of us are thinking with our adult brains on this. we are tackling this from the point of view of the people we are now vs. the people we would have been when we were in high school and could have faced this issue. my own positions i am trying to convey from how i felt when i was a high school wrestler.

salome: i am very sorry that the dickheads on your team treated you so poorly. with any luck those kids grew into men who now feel shame and guilt for their actions and will go to see that their own children do not act so terribly.

the idea that wrestling is a mutual acceptance of violent actions within the boundary of an athletic competition is sound. and our female participants did in fact agree to be part of this so as they say 'game on.' my problem in the situation as a youth was that i had a mental block against it. as a teenager i was not prepared to have a sport in which i had participated against only males since i was 6 suddenly having a girl mixed in at 17. one solution clearly would be having girls involved from a young age to make 1. them more competitive having had trained longer at the sport and 2. have the co-ed environment of the sport hold more normalcy. it is unlikely that a sport like wrestling that has such small pockets of intense competition across the country will attract enough female athletes to have their own sport in too many schools.

[Trebla]

The only cowardice I see is that of petty message board warriors attacking a poor kid who chose to stick fast to his beliefs.

This article pretty much sums it up for me link

The Herkelmans -- and most of the state of Iowa -- praised Northrup for being a boy of faith. "It's his religion and he's strong in his religion," says Megan Black, the only other girl who made state. (These were the first two in the state's history. Black lost both her matches.) "You have to respect him for that."

Why?

Does any wrong-headed decision suddenly become right when defended with religious conviction? In this age, don't we know better? If my God told me to poke the elderly with sharp sticks, would that make it morally acceptable to others?

And where does it say in the Bible not to wrestle against girls? Or compete against them? What religion forbids the two-point reversal?

Remember, Northrup didn't default on sexual grounds. Didn't say anything about it being wrong to put his hands in awkward places. Both he and his father, Jamie, a minister in an independent Pentecostal faith called Believers in Grace Fellowship, cited the physical pounding of it.

"We believe in the elevation and respect of woman," the father told the Des Moines Register, "and we don't think that wrestling a woman is the right thing to do. Body slamming and takedowns -- full contact sport is not how to do that."

That's where the Northrups are so wrong. Body slams and takedowns and gouges in the eye and elbows in the ribs are exactly how to respect Cassy Herkelman. This is what she lives for. She can elevate herself, thanks.

"She's my son," says her dad, Bill. "She's always been my son. Since she could walk, she's always been the tomboy, busting stuff up, walkin' through glass with her bare feet. Finally, her grandma said to me, 'You ought to get her wrestling.'" And she's been doing it since the second grade.

If the Northrups really wanted to "respect" women, they should've encouraged their son to face her. When he didn't, it created a national media hurricane with Cassy in the eye of it. She was surrounded by 20 of us Friday not for how she wrestled (she wound up being eliminated two matches later) but for how she didn't.

"I couldn't get focused," she said of the swirl around her. "I finally had to find a quiet place to try to lock in." Her coach took her cell phone away from her as well as Internet access, but it was all anybody here could talk about. Yes, she becomes the first girl in the 85-year history of the Iowa state wrestling tournament to win a match, but thanks to the Northrups, it's forever splattered with all this.

"I went out for wrestling," says Cassy. "I'm going to face what I'm going to face. This wasn't my choice, it was his."

"What Cassy wanted was to lock horns and see who was better," says her dad.

Could she have beaten him?

"I don't know," she says. "I've never wrestled him before. But from what I've heard, it would've been a close match."

I don't feel as bad for Cassy as I do for Joel. He was the fifth-ranked wrestler in the state at 112 pounds. He was 35-4. He had a chance to win the whole thing. In Iowa, that means a lifetime of people buying you lunch. It's corn-state royalty. To give all that up to protect a girl who loathes being protected? What a waste of a dream.

The last I saw Northrup, he was crying. After the default, he entered the consolation round, where he won his first match, then lost a heartbreaker in overtime, 3-2. He jogged past the scrum of reporters waiting to talk to Cassy, tears streaming down his face, unnoticed. He was done, with no chance to medal.

Neither he, nor his coaches, nor his dad, had any comment. He was reportedly on his way back home to Marion, Iowa, where his mom was about to deliver her eighth child.

For the kid's sake, I hope it's a boy

.

[peterbound]

Why not? A stupid opinion is just as stupid if it's a deeply held religious belief or just something you read in a magazine at the dentist's. I'm not sure of the exact grounds of this guy's objection, but both "girls are delicate flowers that break easily at the hands of men" or "girls = SEX so it's dirty to grapple with them" are quite worthy of mockery.

Agreed. The whole, can't touch women because they may be menstruating thing deserves mockery as well, although i'm not sure if it applies here.

We had a couple of girls in our division when i wrestled in High School. I was lucky that i never had to actually face them (at 155 this was never an issue). They never won, and I use to think they were odd, but i never questioned their right to be there, nor did anyone ever deny completing against them (if i remember correctly some guys actually like the idea). Maybe it's an midwest/west coast thing, dunno, but more power to her.

[Tears of Lys]

There is no girl's wrestling. High School sports funding is limited enough as is. If they're passionate about this sport, girls can either wrestle with boys or not at all. Why should that be taken away?

There's just one answer - Fight Club. (That's the answer to most things, though.)

.

I've never wrestled myself, but I have practiced martial arts, and in no way did we ever let up because the opponent was a girl. That would be a significant form of disrespect and dishonor to one's opponent, in a sport where these kinds of things are taken pretty seriously.

I approve of this message.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Agreed. The whole, can't touch women because they may be menstruating thing deserves mockery as well, although i'm not sure if it applies here.

We had a couple of girls in our division when i wrestled in High School. I was lucky that i never had to actually face them (at 155 this was never an issue). They never won, and I use to think they were odd, but i never questioned their right to be there, nor did anyone ever deny completing against them (if i remember correctly some guys actually like the idea). Maybe it's an midwest/west coast thing, dunno, but more power to her.

I was raised that boys should never hit girls, men should never hit women, etc. I know, really old-fashioned, but it was ingrained in me that women deserve better than getting hit by men. Is it really that bad a thing to teach a boy given how some men seem to think there's nothing wrong with that?

I know, this is an athletic competition so that is different. I'm not so sure that if a mental line or taboo of not hitting women that is crossed in once context doesn't become easier to cross in another. That's not to say that anyone who wrestles/boxes against women is going to become a spousal abuser any more than it means that everyone who boxes/wrestles becomes a bully towards other men. But I do think there are some guys who may see nothing wrong with taking a poke at another guy who wouldn't hit a woman because that's just the way they were raised.

I'd rather teach my son that it's wrong to hit women period, and hold to that even if it means a forfeit, than to watch him pound in some girl's face, which certainly happens in things like boxing, and can happen with forearms, etc., in wrestling. People might not agree with this kids decision, but I hardly think it is deserving of ridicule that this kid just thinks that pounding on women is wrong.

[Dornish]

I was raised that boys should never hit girls, men should never hit women, etc. I know, really old-fashioned, but it was ingrained in me that women deserve better than getting hit by men. Is it really that bad a thing to teach a boy given how some men seem to think there's nothing wrong with that?

It's sexist. If you're OK with that, that's fine, but don't complain we people call you a sexist because you do sexist things.

I'd rather teach my son that it's wrong to hit women period, and hold to that even if it means a forfeit, than to watch him pound in some girl's face, which certainly happens in things like boxing, and can happen with forearms, etc., in wrestling. People might not agree with this kids decision, but I hardly think it is deserving of ridicule that this kid just thinks that pounding on women is wrong.

I'd rather teach my (nonexistant) kids to respect their opponents, always play to win, and win or lose with dignity. Giving up because you believe women are so fundamentally different that they shouldn't be treated as equals is unsportsmanlike, disrespectful, unfair, and completely sexist. I would not want any children to be any of those things, especially my own.