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Jon Targaryen

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Tyrion 1 - Spoilers for ADWD

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When people refer to Tyrion being a mini-me Tywin, I cannot help musing on the fact that his mother was a Lannister cousin. I have always suspected that he gets the Lannister likeness from her... and his mismatched eyes from his father's lineage.

Which father?

Tywin or Aerys?

GH

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I DO NOT like anything about the Dany part....that could have been left out....But I can see where the Stark family can rise from tragedy, as it seems NO body cares that that family is loyal and honorable to their people. I can't wait to see where Peter and his bastard daughter goes in the next book.....I just don't like the desert and how Dany has all this wisdom from nowhere...its stupid, unbelievable.....and I don't want to see her get the throne....its the Stark family....Sansa.....the direwolf.

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I have often wondered about Tyrion's parentage because I have wondered if GRRM would allow him to commit patricide. Not that Tywin didn't deserve it. BTW, if Tyrion is not Tywin's son, can he still be the valonquar?

Lord Tywin's sister told Jaime that she knew that the only kid he had was Tyrion, which leads everyone to believe that the twins, Cercei and Jaime were not his......that fits. AFAC

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Lord Tywin's sister told Jaime that she knew that the only kid he had was Tyrion, which leads everyone to believe that the twins, Cersei and Jaime were not his......that fits. AFAC

Genna Frey was not telling Jaime that he and Cersei were bastards, that they had no right to the name "Lannister" and that neither of them have any claim to Casterly Rock. Which is what telling Jaime that he was literally not Tywin's son would mean.

Read in context, alongside the fact that she is telling Jaime how he resembles Tywin's various brothers, it seems entirely clear to me that she is speaking metaphorically, telling Jaime that in character Tyrion resembles Tywin (as indeed Tyrion himself is well aware), and does so in ways that Jaime himself does not.

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Something that bothered me upon first reading this chapter is how literally Tyrion is dealing with the line, "Wherever whores go." When Tywin said that, it just seemed like he was choosing the words that would make Tyrion the angriest. I never for a second thought that Tysha had literally gone where whores go, or that Tyrion would be thinking along those lines. Besides, isn't the whole point that Jaime told Tyrion that she in fact WAS NOT a whore?

I enjoy Tyrion. I look forward to reading the rest of his storyline. But if GRRM has him continue a search for Tysha based on Tywin's offhand remark, I will be disappointed.

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Something that bothered me upon first reading this chapter is how literally Tyrion is dealing with the line, "Wherever whores go." When Tywin said that, it just seemed like he was choosing the words that would make Tyrion the angriest. I never for a second thought that Tysha had literally gone where whores go, or that Tyrion would be thinking along those lines. Besides, isn't the whole point that Jaime told Tyrion that she in fact WAS NOT a whore?

I enjoy Tyrion. I look forward to reading the rest of his storyline. But if GRRM has him continue a search for Tysha based on Tywin's offhand remark, I will be disappointed.

Well, I think after being gang-raped by the garrison, she would be in shock, and semi-insane. I don't think she would have been able to hold on to the money. She was probably robbed soon after, so it wouldn't be a surprise if she ended up in a whorehouse. There is a theory that she is the Sailor's Wife at the Happy Port whorehouse in Braavos, and I think it has some merit. So Jaime would be right in that she was not a whore to begin with, but she ended up a whore, because of Tywin.

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Interesting sample. I've read it before, but I just noticed this little nugget the last time I read it:

"Wherever whores go." Tyrion warned his father not to say that word. If I had not loosed, he would have seen my threats were empty. He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms. He was rising when I killed him. "I killed Shae too," he confessed to Varys.

"You knew what she was."

"I did. But I never knew what he was."

Varys tittered. "And now you do."

My first impression was that, yes, Tywin Lannister did in fact use whores (which would fit with Tyrion being Tywin's son according to Aunt Gemma). But Varys doesn't seem at all surprised that Shae was up there, which muddles it somewhat.

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But Varys doesn't seem at all surprised that Shae was up there, which muddles it somewhat.

I tend to hold to the theory that Varys planted Shae, but I don't know that Varys not being surprised proves anything in particular. As the master of whispers, he would presumably already know if Tywin had been sleeping with Shae.

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I think the way the plan was suppose to go originally, was Tywin was suppose to die from poison, and Shae was suppose to take the blame. Tyrion of course would be accused since Shae was his mistress.

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I tend to hold to the theory that Varys planted Shae, but I don't know that Varys not being surprised proves anything in particular. As the master of whispers, he would presumably already know if Tywin had been sleeping with Shae.

One interesting little tidbit from ASoS is that Tyrion hears his father's guardsmen joking about how they'd like to fuck Shae. I suppose they could have been saying that based on her appearance at the trial, but it would also make sense if they brought Shae to Tywin's bed.

In any case, I won't divert the thread anymore on this topic.

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Something that bothered me upon first reading this chapter is how literally Tyrion is dealing with the line, "Wherever whores go." When Tywin said that, it just seemed like he was choosing the words that would make Tyrion the angriest. I never for a second thought that Tysha had literally gone where whores go, or that Tyrion would be thinking along those lines. Besides, isn't the whole point that Jaime told Tyrion that she in fact WAS NOT a whore?

I enjoy Tyrion. I look forward to reading the rest of his storyline. But if GRRM has him continue a search for Tysha based on Tywin's offhand remark, I will be disappointed.

I think that you might be reading this a bit too literally :-) In my view this signals too things: 1) That Tyrion would like to find Tysha again, even if he hasn't completely realized it's what he wants. 2) That he is troubled by the episode, even traumatized, and is still trying to make sense of everything. Were they even the last words Tywin said before being kinslayed by Tyrion?

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It's clear Tyrion is kind of in a hitting rock-bottom phase. He's going over all of his options, drinking a lot and being petulant. I'm of the impression we're not supposed to take his ruminating of the past as plan for his future.

He'll come up with something action-oriented. He always does.

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Grimacing, Tyrion pushed himself off the bench and went to fetch it, but as he did he saw some mushrooms growing up from a cracked paving tile. Pale white they were, with speckles, and red ribbed undersides as dark as blood. The dwarf snapped one off and sniffed it. Delicious, he thought, or deadly. But which? Why not both? He was not a brave enough man to take cold steel to his own belly, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard. There were seven of the mushrooms, he saw. Perhaps the gods were trying to tell him something. He picked them all, snatched a glove down from the line, wrapped them carefully, and stuffed them down his pocket

I was rereading this chapter as I prepare for ADWD and noticed this paragraph for the first time. Two things strike me about this:

1.) Tyrion is very unstable following the murder of his Father, similar to Cersei. However, in this paragraph he expressly shows suicidal thoughts. I wonder if this is going to become a greater part of the Tyrion arc of this book as he tries to regain a place in the world and discover who he is now.

2.) These mushrooms are clearly Chekhov's Gun. Tyrion may wonder about the mushrooms later down the line and question whether or not they are deadly. At some point in this book Tyrion is either going to try and commit suicide with the mushrooms or try and poison someone to get out of a difficult situation - which is ironic seeing as someone being poisoned is the reason he is on the run.

I can't wait for Chekhov's gun to go off in this arc, although I think they are going to amount to nothing other than to show how fragile Tyrion's psyche is. I doubt they will be poisonous.

Thoughts?

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Tyrion really is a monster. He may be amusing, and with a few positive characteristics, but overall he's a twisted abomination. Consider his interaction with the poor slave girl.

1. He knew that she would be killed if she refused to have sex with him.

2. He knew that she definitely did not want to have sex with him.

3. He did not have a desire for sex, but decided to request it from her anyway, in the most obnoxious way, and out of spite, in order to punish her for not finding him attractive.

In order words, he rapes a girl out of cold and calculated maliciousness. One cannot go much lower than that, I think.

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Tyrion really is a monster. He may be amusing, and with a few positive characteristics, but overall he's a twisted abomination. Consider his interaction with the poor slave girl.

1. He knew that she would be killed if she refused to have sex with him.

2. He knew that she definitely did not want to have sex with him.

3. He did not have a desire for sex, but decided to request it from her anyway, in the most obnoxious way, and out of spite, in order to punish her for not finding him attractive.

In order words, he rapes a girl out of cold and calculated maliciousness. One cannot go much lower than that, I think.

Show me where he has sex with her. I am waiting ... He doesn't. He only scares her witless.

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Show me where he has sex with her. I am waiting ... He doesn't. He only scares her witless.

It's implied that they do, however. He requests it of her, and he tells Illyrio that she did all that was required of her. He might by lying both times, but I doubt it, and it would in any case not be the first time for Tyrion to use/abuse unwilling girls.

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Show me where he has sex with her. I am waiting ... He doesn't. He only scares her witless.

He does tell Illiryo she performed as it was required, I don't see why he would lie about that.

and it would in any case not be the first time for Tyrion to use/abuse unwilling girls.

There's the whole Tysha thing, but you might be reading too much between the lines here, the only other two women we actually know of being intimate first hand with him were Shae, and that was consensual, and Sansa, and nothing actually happened there.

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It's implied that they do, however. He requests it of her, and he tells Illyrio that she did all that was required of her. He might by lying both times, but I doubt it, and it would in any case not be the first time for Tyrion to use/abuse unwilling girls.

Here is the quote:

[illyrio:]"Did you enjoy the girl I sent you?" Illyrio asked.

[Tyrion:]"If I had wanted a girl I would have asked for one. I lack a nose, not a tongue."[indicating that he has not really done anything with her]

[illyrio:]"If she failed to please... "

[Tyrion:]"She did all that was required of her."[he says that only to protect her, considering how threatening sounds Illyrio in the previous sentence.And note the evasive answer - 'all that was required of her' can have several meanings]

He has never before abused unwilling girls. And if you mean whores, that is their job, they have chosen their profession. They were willing to sleep with him for money.

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I hope tyrion becomes Dany's Hand!

Me too. I think a Hand is exactly what Dany needs at this stage, and Tyrion would be perfect.

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Yes. She needs a smart and cunning advisor, as well as someone who will tell her the truth about what kind of a monster her father was. The killing of the Starks and Brandons companions / fathers, the threat of burning Kings Landing to the ground (she saw this in one of the visions in the house of the undying)

Tyrion is most likely the lion mentions by Quathie in one of the Danny chapters....so he is on his way.

I hope he recovers by the time he gets back to Westeros, and I hope he finally forgives Jaimie. Jaimie was the only member of his family who ever treated him with respect and kindness (even if he lied about Tryions 1st love).

Tyrion is one of my favorite PoV's right behing Jon and Jaimie so I hope things get better for him.

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