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Is Robb still alive?

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i have to admit that it's not mine, it's just a fascinating and interesting theory thought by a guy called sharingan. Here i'm quoting.

Edit: This isn't to be taken seriously :) I know is really really unlikely, it's just kidding. The only thing i'm serious about is that there is a secret related to the leg of lamb. A very important one u.u

Theory: Is Robb Stark still alive? This is a feeling I had (he has) re-reading A Clash of Kings, that Dany's chapter when she foresees the Red Wedding.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

This is a foresight of the red wedding, and the wolf king on the throne is assumed to be Robb. But nobody has seen his face, because the Freys cut away his head, sewing Grey Wind's on Robb's neck.

A Storm Of Swords - The Red Wedding

Merrett Frey poured himself another cup of wine, while Jinglebell wandered about stealing bites off the plates of those who'd left. Ser Wendel Manderly was lustily attacking a leg of lamb.
It is nothing, she tried to tell herself, you are seeing grumkins in the woodpile, you are become an old silly woman sick with grief and fear. But something must have shown on her face. Even Ser Wendel Manderly took note. "Is something amiss?" he asked, the leg of lamb in his hands.
Ser Wendel Manderly rose ponderously to his feet, holding his leg

of lamb. A quarrel went in his open mouth and came out the back of his neck. Ser Wendel crashed

forward, knocking the table off its trestles and sending cups, flagons, trenchers, platters, turnips, beets,

and wine bouncing, spilling, and sliding across the floor.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads.

Well, Martin repeats thrice that Wendel Manderly is holding a leg of lamb (and the king on the throne as well).

Thrice. During this emotive, upsetting, puzzling, horrific and wonderful POV, he feels the need to remind us of a leg of lamb.

Also, im asking: why should the freys sewing that wolf's head on Robb's body? Sewing a head on a body is a pretty messy (and bloody, and hard) thing and I don't see a reason for this.

(Furthermore, what's happened to Robb's body? After this long, hard work, the freys did just throw it away? Why?)

The reason is - that is not Robb's body. Besides, Dany saw a lot of heads in her vision, not only one. Maybe they did some "attempts"?

(This is more likely. Wendel Manderly is fat and his body cannot be mistaken for Robb's. Maybe that was just the first attempt, and Manderly's lamb of leg gave them an idea - sewing a wolf's head is just puzzling and suspicious, but sewing a wolf head and making him hold a leg of lamb as a scepter is mocking, and nobody could ever suspect there is someting to hide)

Final question: Why did they do that?

Well, i don't know. Maybe they want to use the king in the North in some way...

ok, i'm done. I know it's just a little detail.. but never say never ;)

Ok, so.. what do you think about? The first time i read it, i though it was absolutely crazy (plus, im not Robb's fan at all, i've always thought he was superfluous) .. but then i came to think that it's not crazier than those theories about Jaime and Cersei being Aerys's sons, about Sam being Aegon, or about Syrio being Jaquen and/or Jaquen being Daario and/or Daario being Aegon.

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I'm pretty sure that's impossible. According to Catelyn, Roose drove his sword through Robb's heart. Also, Wendel Manderly is grossly fat. No one would mistake his body for Robb's.

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but then i came to think that it's not crazier than those theories about Jaime and Cersei being Aerys's sons, about Sam being Aegon, or about Syrio being Jaquen and/or Jaquen being Daario and/or Daario being Aegon.

That's uh... not really an endorsement.

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Highly unlikely. While I do find speculations interesting, and some convincing, this is not one of them. Wasnt he shot with crossbow bolts aswell as stabbed through the heart?

Perhaps George is just fond of lamb legs? :P

I would be very dissapointed if Robb were alive in fact..

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It is a nice catch, but I don't think Robb is alive. Even though Robb was one of my favorite Starks, it just wouldn't feel right if he survived the Red Wedding.

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Highly unlikely. While I do find speculations interesting, and some convincing, this is not one of them. Wasnt he shot with crossbow bolts aswell as stabbed through the heart?

I would be very dissapointed if Robb were alive in fact..

Yes, cat saw bolton (i think is bolton) stabbing him but IMHO she was too far to be sure. Of course there is not reason to stab Robb if they didn't meant to kill him, but this is just a detail ;D

I would be very dissapointed if Robb were alive in fact..

I'd be too, but not because of the theory. Just because Robb - like Ned - is one of those character who had to die to let some of the other characters go on with their plots/life. (And because we don't need a young, cool hero. We already have Jon ;D)

But - hey - i'm bored. I need some theories, and i like this one.

Perhaps George is just fond of lamb legs?

The part about the lamb leg is the one which let me puzzled. Very. What's the point repeating that thrice? Even if Rob is dead, there must be something about that lamb leg. Something very, very important. :thumbsup: (i'm absolutely serious here u.u )

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Ah well I agree that this speculation is fun so continue with it! There is really not much else to do until ADWD comes out..

Yes I agree that the lambleg is important, you have quite convinced me! :cheers:

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OH, here is a quote from the Hound

“My brother. . .

“Dead,” he shouted back at her. “Do you think they’d slaughter his men and leave him alive?” He turned his head back toward the camp. “Look. Look, damn you.”

As much as it pains me to say, the Young Wolf is dead. The Hound in his dark yet practical view of life has it right.

And the whole thing with the leg of lamb is a stretch. They were at a FEAST, so they could have an ample supply of legs of lambs. And there was at least one person who got decapitated during the fighting, the Smalljon, so Dany's view is correct in terms of the actual slaughter.

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I still maintain that the lambleg is the key reason to why Robb is in fact still alive and kicking..

In all seriousness though I dont think anyone really doubts that Robb is dead..Or as Aurane Waters would say; "I am told that removing the head from the body is often mortal"

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You're trying too hard. Robb is dead, end of story. He was shot by crossbows and stabbed through the chest with a sword. Even if by some miracle that didn't kill him, why would the Freys keep him alive, faking his death? Alive he has no use for them, nor the Boltons, nor the Lannister.

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Yeah, I didn't really follow the logic stream on how that lamb shank might mean Robb outran the reaper...

Maybe restate your hypothesis?

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Yeah, I didn't really follow the logic stream on how that lamb shank might mean Robb outran the reaper...

Maybe restate your hypothesis?

Sounded like the theory was that Robb was not actually killed, and that they only killed grey wind, then sewed grey winds head to manderly body (his head was i guess decimated by being shot through by a crossbow bolt). I see no possible motivation for this deception either, seeing as the freys pretty much threw their reputation into the shithole with the red wedding.

Seems to unlikely to me. Their body types are completely different (ie, robb isn't horribly fat). If they wanted to fake it somehow, they could choose any other body (there's no shortage of dead people at the red wedding) and it would be more believable.

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Sounded like the theory was that Robb was not actually killed, and that they only killed grey wind, then sewed grey winds head to manderly body

I thought that was pretty well debunked by the body type mismatch as you stated. It is an interesting thought, but ultimately I believe Robb has died.

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Maybe, just maybe, the Frey's are doing the Stark's a favour, by giving Westeros a new and improved Robb? :P

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Something that I always wonder about this is, who saw this mockery of Robb anyway? It's not like the Freys can take a picture of Robb with a wolf-head and post on Facebook with the tag The "King" in the North. I believe all we have of this is hearsay from wedding guests.

Also, what good is it beheading a dead man? If anything, when you kill a King, isn't it better to parade his corpse around saying "Your king is dead, you'd better bend the knee."

I will give as much as 10% credability to the "something is fishy with wolf-Robb"-part of the theory.

It is a good point, the leg of lamb thing. I didn't actually "see" it until I read it a second time here in the thread. I will afford another 5% to the theory for that.

It is said they threw Catelyn in the river in "savage mockery" of Tully wedding customs, but I always failed to see the difference between "throwing a corpse in the river" and "mockingly throwing a corpse in the river".

Naturally, Catelyn's corpse "needed" to be brought out to Nymeria and Lord Beric in order for her to become Stoneheart. As someone has asked before, though, what did they do with Robb's body?

All in all, I'd have to say it does not yield more than 15% to the theory, which ranks somewhere between "something's not quite right", and "I really wish ADWD would come out NOW!" ;)

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Catelyn witnessing Roose thrusting his longsword through Robb's heart and twisting is enough to convince me that Robb is indeed dead.

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It is said they threw Catelyn in the river in "savage mockery" of Tully wedding customs, but I always failed to see the difference between "throwing a corpse in the river" and "mockingly throwing a corpse in the river".

The key factor is the intent used when throwing the body in the river. If they did it deliberately to mock the Tully funeral customs then it is mockingly. If they simply tossed a body in the river then its not.

To argue that Robb is alive you should follow up with a reason that the Freys and Boltons would want him to be alive. There is literally no good reason for them to have allowed Robb to live.

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Yup and then we find out that Reek is actually Robb ...

Man we got too much time on our hands ... if he doesn't finish Dance soon we'll be having theories explaining how King Robert didn't actually die at all and is just pretending the whole realm is at war when actually its just an elaborate mummers farce meant to make dany think the 7 kingdoms are ripe for the taking so he can lure her into striking before her dragons are ready and he can finally kill her.

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The key factor is the intent used when throwing the body in the river. If they did it deliberately to mock the Tully funeral customs then it is mockingly. If they simply tossed a body in the river then its not.

To argue that Robb is alive you should follow up with a reason that the Freys and Boltons would want him to be alive. There is literally no good reason for them to have allowed Robb to live.

My point precisely. Who says it was "savage mockery"? Freys? It seems to me that there is somewhat of a "omniscient spectator" around the whole Red Wedding. Someone named it mockery. Someone said they sewed Grey Winds head on *Robb's* corpse. Who knows what really happened?

I would certainly not have to follow up with such a reason, as I do not argue that Robb is alive. At least not alive in the normal sense. He was all but dead when he was skewered by Lord Bolton through the heart. But as BwB says: Death and guest rights. It don't mean as much as it used to, these days.

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