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Happy Ent

Judging Eye X (Re-read)

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As far we know, the Inchoroi, as physicians, granted the Non-men longevity by mundane means (mind you these means were pretty impressive). On the other hand Shaeonnara (according to the appendices) was a (Gnostic) sorceror, who managed to preserve his wicked old soul, i.e. to keep his spiritual essence on earth - this is reasonably by sorcerous means.

The glossary mentions soul-trapping techniques.

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As you say, Seswatha is long dead (and no doubt damned).

Maybe not. Maybe the mummified heart trick is a win-win for old Seswatha.

@lockesnow, Mimara as Achamian's daughter? He is seriously fucked up, but I think even Bakker would stop short of this enormity.

Are we thinking of the same author? *Scott* Bakker? *Ray* Scott Bakker?

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Mimara can't be Achamian's daughter. The genetics are all wrong. Mimara has green eyes and a lighter skin than Esmenet, while Esmenet and Achamian are both Ketyai.

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Chapter 3 Momemn

Bakker gets to reflect on literary theory a bit with a few pages of Esme obsessing over the interpretation of an Aeneid analogue epic poem. Esme has gotten very paranoid. The kids are a strange lot.

Note that Esme did not have a nameless one until they arrived in Momemn, all her children were nondeformed while on the campaigns with Kell. And Inrilautis didn't get really bad until he was ten or so (and Esme mentions she was with Kell on the campaigns for some time). I have to wonder just how much of the problem is that they're in Momemn and are more vulnerable there. More vulnerable to sedition from within, or more vulnerable to seditious prayer (ie Yatwerians) from the cults. Other nameless ones only occured after Esme's so in and around Momemn, I figure. The gods may not smile upon adultery and concubines, Kell.

I'd forgotten there was a female Kayutas (more or less normal child) Serwa, who is training with the gnosis witches, and apparently she was Esme's favorite.

I also wonder at Kellhus' decision to use Momemn and the Andiamine Heights. Yes, he does get some benefits from completely replacing the previous rulers of that particular state, but he also establishes as his capital a state that has been in tremendous rivalry with everyone else for millenia. And on top of that, along with the benefits of completely replacing a previous ruler, he also gets the drawbacks, all the negative associations people have with the place. I would think Sumna or a new capital city would have been better suited to Kellhus' Empire.

Better yet, he should have done something Godlike to build his capital, like use the gnosis to cut the top off of a mountain and then teleport that mountain top to a location in the shallow waters off the coast and build himself an island for the capital city. (or make people think that's what he did and instead use mundane means and a sorcerous analogy to hold back the water around an island area and allow for a foundation to be laid and an island to be built from the seafloor up).

Also, the chapter opens with an ominous Esme dream. A tree. The fruit of the tree are dead baby heads. The dead crawl out of the ground from beneath the tree and she wakes up. I'm thinking this tree dream will be one of those 'duh' moments after other revelations in the series have been made, it has the feel of significance to it, but not one we yet have the knowledge to apprehend.

I didn't finish the chapter because I was falling asleep.

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I'd suggest that using Momemn is sensible due to beuracratic, strategic and logistical considerations. Historicaly, moving capitals is not a good idea unless there is a strong need to do so on the basis of one or more of these preceding considerations. Refer to Akhenaten and Armana for a worst case scenario of the results of doing this kind of thing for the wrong reasons.

Also don't forget that the Inrithi faith believes in God's immanence through history; Kellhus doing stuff like you suggest would not be easy to fit into this theological context and would thus result in more religious unrest in my opinion.

eta. hyperlinx

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The next akka Mimara chapter is fascinating, because Akka info dumps on the dreams to Mimara. The relevant sentance seems to be that there are things that are known to disrupt the dreams, strange differences and variants, all catalogued by the Mandati, and some have gone mad trying to figure out what that all means. He also points out that Seswatha's mundane life was never seen, Seswatha never shits. Then Akka reassures the reader that he's thought of all the ways to shoot down his Ses stubbed a toe dream, "I dreamed it myself and it inserted" yada yada and Akka dismisses these alternative explanations.

I think after this chapter we are clearly supposed to accept that the dreams of Seswatha's mundane life are more or less real, but before any of the explanations was the comment that dreams do vary from time to time.

Akka already has the Ishual name, but we haven't seen the Ishual dream yet. So Ent may be right in the WLW excerpt thread where he says that dream is one Akka has had many times.

Mimara starts off the chapter with a comment about how broken trees don't bend. I thought that was interesting.

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The tree in Esmenet's dream is another incarnation of the tree theme in this series, a theme I think related to the No-God, except now undead instead of dead. (I think Achamian's dream in the the WLW excerpt is related to Esmenet's dream.) Having prophetic dreams could be related to Esmenet being one of the Few.

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hmm, well I think that the Tree imagery is probably more related to Earwa than to the no-god. The nonmen are noted to have a thing for trees, and the Copper Tree of Siol predates the No-God by many millenia, and predates the arrival of the Inchoroi on Earwa.

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If my theory about the No-God being Su'juroit is correct, it's no wonder if he uses imagery associated with Nonmen. It's also possible that the Nonmen were into trees because they noticed their pre-existing metaphysical significance.

The tree imagery pops up quite a bit in various places and would deserve a good exploration. In addition to actual trees, I think things like the No-God's whirlwind and the Bar of Heaven are also thematically related, as is the stone pillar in Inrau's death scene.

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The next akka Mimara chapter […]

We learn that Mimara has left the Heights to search for Akka.

This is a good place to say: No. Way.

Acka tells the reader how dangerous Mimara's journey is: a diminutive woman, alone, protected by little else than her cast-noble clothes. That she survives the trip through uncharted lands is remarkable enough. Even more unbelievable is the fact that she finds him. What did she do? Google him?

From chapter 3 we learn that Esmi knows Mim is with Akka:

Even now she had her men scouring the Three Seas, searching—searching everywhere except the one place where she knew Mimara would be.

Keep her safe, Akka. Please keep her safe.

So: First, Esmi knows where Akka is. Second, so does Mim—else, how did she find him? Did Esmi guide Mim's journey by purposefully placing hints and rumours along her path to leave her in the illusion that she travels to Akka against her mother's will?. By implication, Kellhus knows where Akka is, provided he cares (if Esmi can find out, so can he). Clearly, Akka is being left alone by Kellhus on purpose.

Yet Mimara maintains the illusion that she's rebelling against her parents's wishes:

"What, Kellhus?" [...] If his people find me, they would drag me home in chains! Throw me at the feet of my fucking mother—you have to believe that!"

Well, Mim, you're walking on conditioned ground.

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So: First, Esmi knows where Akka is. Second, so does Mim—else, how did she find him? Did Esmi guide Mim's journey by purposefully placing hints and rumours along her path to leave her in the illusion that she travels to Akka against her mother's will?
I think it's a bit simpler than that; Esme let slip where Akka was one day knowing Mimara would remember it and go to him if she left for anywhere.

Or Kellhus did. Since Esme knows about it and knows she's going there, I'm guessing Esme did it but under conditioning from Kellhus.

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catching up on the first Psatama chapter.

A couple notes, when Nanny gets hit with the Yatwer visit (Gods talk in bold, hmm), she sees 'Auras' around everything. This could be an indication that she is one of the few.

Also, it seems like Nanny throws her cane at Eleva and that is what salts her, so does Nanny have Two Chorae, one in her cane and one to display?

Nanny had a twin who didn't survive the pox, she thinks briefly about the sacrifices that were made before cutting her own thoughts short.

Nanny's POV is followed up with another twin POV, (I stopped reading when it switched to lil'Kell) which I think is a deliberate literary device. We are supposed to draw a connection between these twins.

Crackpot speculation, Nanny's twin was sacrificed to Yatwer to save Nanny (and perhaps others infected with the Pox) and Nanny was given to the Yatwerian priesthood afterwards, but something of the twin still lives on with Nanny (and lil'Kell) which is part of what makes them so special. It could also be something to do with twins being loved by the gods, perhaps because they find it easier to get access to humans when you have one soul occupying two bodies (Earwan theory of twins, lol).

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Also, it seems like Nanny throws her cane at Eleva and that is what salts her, so does Nanny have Two Chorae, one in her cane and one to display?

No. She hits the table with her cane with a loud crack (her palms tingle from the impact).

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I thought that all of her chapters were confusing and difficult to follow.

This, so much this.

It's almost as though Bakker wrote her chapters and then went through and deleted a sentance from each paragraph and we have this strange amalgam of perceptions that makes her perspective so hard to follow.

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Whoa. That's a Hell of a theory. Although I did notice somewhere that the carapace is made of nimil...something that I hadn't picked up on until recently.

The No-God being Su'juroit is a part of a web of interconnected theories that I've written about before in an earlier thread in an essay titled "Sorcery, Nonmen, Damnation". Maybe I should do a small repeat of the No-God = Su'juroit line of thought in the main thread.

I don't think the carapace being nimil matters that much though. I think nimil is just the mithril-equivalent of Eärwa and therefore the go-to material for high quality.

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Nerdanel's basic theory seems to be that every named Nonman in the story is in fact Mekeritrig. And the No-God. And Mek founded the Dunyain, meaning probably Moe and Mek are also the same person.

Therefore, Kellhus is the son of the No-God who will probably become No-God 2.0.

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Nerdanel's basic theory seems to be that every named Nonman in the story is in fact Mekeritrig. And the No-God. And Mek founded the Dunyain, meaning probably Moe and Mek are also the same person.

Therefore, Kellhus is the son of the No-God who will probably become No-God 2.0.

makes perfect sense, Su'juroit is actually Mek is actually Cleric is actually Cujara is actually Nil Giccas is actually Ninjanjin is actually the No God. :)

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In the interest of an accurate representation of my theories:

Mekeritrig = Cleric = Nin'janjin = the founder of the Dûnyain.

Su'juroit = the No-God.

Kellhus = himself.

Mekeritrig and Kellhus both currently work for the No-God. Moënghus and Maithanet might or might not. Kelmomas works for the No-God but doesn't know it, thinking the voice in his head is Samarmas. The Consult work(ed) for the No-God but the No-God ditched them for incompetence. If Kellhus doesn't succeed in his war against the Consult, the No-God will ditch him too.

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Here's the problem with anyone working for the No-God. To be working for him implies that the No-God is giving them orders directly or indirectly, which means that he must be in some sense present in the world. And, since people are still giving birth and people cannot feel its presence, this is not the case.

It is, I suppose, possible for them to be working in the interests of the No-God (whatever those may be), but that is a far different thing than them working directly on the No-God's behalf. Remember that the No-God was a tool summoned by the Consult and the Inchoroi for a specific purpose that then exceeded its purpose and became an object of worship.

And, unless something has changed in the 20 years since TTT, Kellhus is definitely not working on the Consult's behalf unless he came to that decision without any thought, since there's no hint of compliance in any of his dealings with or thoughts on the Consult in the first three books.

ETA: Also, if Mek and Kellhus both work for the No-God, why did Mek attack him in TDTCB?

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