Jump to content

Judging Eye X (Re-read)


Happy Ent

Recommended Posts

I forgot another detail from the Marrow chapter:

In one of Acka’s dreams, we learn to our surprise that Ses didn’t take the 1st Apocalypse seriously, despite the Nonmen warnings. Says Celmo:

What if this … this thing … is as mighty as the Quya say?

He says Thing. This is compatible with my view that the No-God is a construction, an artificial intelligence if you want. Something of the Tekne. It’s built (or “realized” as the appendix says).

(Of course, you might argue, what does Celmo know about these things…)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure it's just tree-porn akin to GRRM's food porn, I think Bakker is weaving in trees as a literary device throughout the series. So I think it's deliberate and there for a reason other than that Bakker loves trees.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure it's just tree-porn akin to GRRM's food porn, I think Bakker is weaving in trees as a literary device throughout the series. So I think it's deliberate and there for a reason other than that Bakker loves trees.

Agree. It's a leitmotif relating to manifestations and expressions of divinity (or at least outside agency), based on my contextual interpretation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, Bakker said something like "yeah, the trees are important" in answer to a questio on the three-seas forum. Do not remember details, but someone that still has searching capability over there could maybe pull the quote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thx Lockesnow, interesting stuff. Looking forward to getting to TJE again. :D

Trees bifurcate, upwards and downwards. Perhaps the souls of men are but leaves, a brief life that alows the whole to drink the sun, then spiral down and decay to feed the roots. <feeling poetic :pimp: >

Yeah...what's up with the tree theme? It seems pretty clear that there's something underlying there, or Bakker just really likes trees, or both. But I don't really have any good guesses as to what the symbolism is.

In my reread, especially in TTT, I've come up with a theory regarding trees. However, I want to finish TTT (about to the Battle of Shimeh) and assemble my quotes before delving into it. (Not that it's particularly exciting, btw.)

Re: Marrow - I've never read Blood Meridian but I did like the homage to roleplaying with regards to the "party" composition in the inn. Your tank, your cleric, your wizard, etc.

Re: Soter - I'm seeing a lot of mentions of an Ainoni "Lord Soter" throughout PoN. Any chance that this is Soter? He is alive at least at the beginning of the battle of Shimeh.

Also: I'm coming to believe in the Cleric = Nil-Giccas theory. In TTT, in a Seswatha dream it's revealed that Sessy and NG are acquaintances, and he is mentioned several distinct times as the Nonman King of Ishterebinth. However, Aurang mentions Nin-whatever as the one to watch in Ishterebinth. Perhaps NG, the great Nonman king during the Apocalypse, eventually became Erratic and found his way to the Skin Eaters, probably due to some Kellhusian manipulation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Soter - I'm seeing a lot of mentions of an Ainoni "Lord Soter" throughout PoN. Any chance that this is Soter? He is alive at least at the beginning of the battle of Shimeh.

We’ve been there before. My opinion is no, because Acka doesn’t recognise him. Acka knows the history of the holy war as well as we do, in fact, he wrote a book about it. So he must have heard of Lord Soter, possibly met him. Since Acka himself doesn’t make the connection, neither need we. It’s probably just a normal form of Ainoni name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

meh, crack pot time. He is Kosoter not Soter because of what Kell did to/for him. He died, but Kell reached through the outside and yanked his soul back inside, but plunked it into another body (Soter's being unusable). Kell is able to do this, because like Mimara's heart everyone REALLY REALLY believes in him as the battle of Shimeh winds down. Akka doesn't hear of it because he's doing his little cuckold scolding of Kell and then storms off to exile.

shooting holes in my own crackpot. Naturally Kosoter being a lazarus would be such big news everyone would know of him, even Akka, it'd be a pretty indisputable miracle the kind that Xinemus noted Kell didn't perform ala Ajencis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, it's clear that Kosoter has been highly estimated by Kellhus (who gave him the name, Ironsoul), so it seems strange that such a veteran would spend his time hunting Sranc instead of joining the Great Ordeal. Unless Kellhus asked him to do just this, like he asked Saubon to stay behind in Caraskand.

I don't think Kosoter had to be directly told to be in Marrow by Kellhus. From his comments, it seems Kosoter has gone some ... strange places with Kellhus and he could very well have left Kellhus' army on his own. He always struck me as a man who's seen too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Kosoter & co. are definitely not there by accident. I think the messenger in the prologue delivered him Kellhus's orders. I think Kellhus is planning something but I have no idea what. It all reminds me of the large-scale diversion in The Lord of the Rings, with Kellhus as Aragorn and Achamian and Mimara as Frodo and Sam. It's just a total mystery what the expedition is supposed to achieve for Kellhus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to post tomorrow or sunday about the wolf gate. But I wanted to throw out something cleric said about himself near the CC statue. Paraphrasing "All of us, the Last Born..."

The last born could mean two things. Its a name for all the non-men ala tolkien. Or, it refers to a company of nonmen cleric is a part of, the last generation of nonmen males, the youngest nonmen, the last nonmen born to the world before the womb plague took their wives and daughters. Some of these nonmen might presumably have never even known the women of their race.

Also, nonmen can't see paintings, since they presumably have writings, I think this means they are color blinf or see a very different spectrum of light than what humans call the visible spectrum. If human color perception is only a small fraction of the spectrum they percieve then all colors would seem almost indistinguishable.

On the other hand, maybe nonmen don't have stereo vision quite like humans and they're unable to focus on a single plain, their eyes focus multiple planes in depth like a wide angle lens and the plane to plane focus that human eyes use when shifting from one view to another is impossible to them. But if they can't see the two dimensional plane, does that mean all their writing is based on carving. This doesn't seem to agree with the ttt appendix and mentions of books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a niggling theory about Nonmen that's been wiggling around in my brain for a day or so. It has to do with Nonman art, trying to capture two or three views of the same thing at one time. around the same time, akka thinks or says about how the nonmen were obsessed with the nature of time. Now it's all lovely and artistic that they try to capture life in stillness in order to more fully express what it is they're carving. But 'capturing life in stillness' is a very human way to understand it. Look at human art, we don't represent so abstractly. We know the nonmen can't really see paintings, which is interesting in and of itself. But what if the nonmen see completely differently than humans.

For example, what if nonmen see in four dimensions rather than three? What if, when a nonman sees a dog, for example, they see that dog two or three ways/moments at once, like seeing The Dog a few seconds or years before and a few seconds or years after. Making the dog still and seeing only the present would almost be an impossible task for them. And they wouldn't particularly think this strange, because that's just how things are, as they grew an understanding of time, they would begin to test their vision and realize the limitations of what they're eyes show us. Human eyes deceive us in a myriad of ways, that's why optical illusions are so easy to pull off on humans. Often times we're not even 'seeing' things as they actually are, we're seeing a detailed sampling of what is in front of us, and our brains fill in the rest of the picture, much like a computer algorithm might, based on some less detailed sampling. If Nonmen saw in four dimensions they would deceive themselves in a completely different manner of ways, and they may even find the ways that humans deceive themselves to be incomprehensible.

And what if when ninjanjin returned to Cujara Cinmoi unaged he was not so much unaged as he was now frozen to the three dimensional sight of nonmen, they only saw him in the now because he no longer was aging, he would be just exactly the same in a year as he was now and was just the same a year ago as he was now. In stopping his aging, he became a radically different sight. He didn't just look young, the PROOF of his eternity was written in to the very nature of the nonman sight. Perhaps you could even call him an optical illusion, but seeing is believing and when CC saw NJJ he saw proof that that NJJ was not dying. whereas when CC looked at any other nonmen he would see proof that they were dying as he saw them in the future and in the past at the same time.

Now if we stop and think about this for a moment I start to see a connection to the whole concept of The Darkness that Comes Before and the paradox that Kellhus cannot handle of the Celmomian prophecy.

What if it weren't so much a prophecy, as Celmomas' nonman traits suddenly asserting themselves in the moment of his death, The way that color or light may suddenly become more intense in the last moments of human life. And with nonman four dimensional sight, he saw a few thousand years into the future, and saw the exact moment that Kellhus--glowing, btw, as he tends too--passing the exact field in which Celmomas died in Seswatha's path? If that were the case, what came before, Celmomas', determines that Kellhus will come after. (that doesn't make a lot of sense, fucking time paradoxes)

And this ties in to Akwatha as well. Nerdanel is adamant that Cleric squatting over Akka during the "Who is Mimara?" scene is incontrovertible proof that Cleric is sending False Dreams to Akka. But if this four dimensional sight is true, then Akka during a dream would be fascinating to someone who saw in four dimensions, Akka experiencing a dream, would probably look like Two completely different people to a nonman. That's gotta be interesting. And let's say the sorcery of Seswatha's mummified heart was designed by Quya, and that in fact in letting men relive seswatha's life they are actually seeing like nonmen, seeing the past at the moment they are experiencing the present. They can only do this in dreams, because their eyes are closed and the outside is closer in dreams than it is in consciousness.

also, it hints at something to do with NauCayuti as well, if he did in fact have nonman blood (was anasurimbor sire rather than ses sire) then those traits might present more in children than they do in adults (like language acquisition, the ability fades with age). So Akka might have had a true dream of NC actually asking Ses who Mimara is, because NC was seeing at that moment the future akka and ses at the same time and picked Mimara up from somewhere.

Totally crackpot, and full of holes but terribly interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chapter 7, Sakarpus

The chapter both opens an closes with a universal POV. The first part describes the logistics of the Holy War. We learn that the lands beyond Sakarpus have already been mapped by imperial trackers that are now legendary. (Xonghis of the Skin Eaters is likely such a man.) Also, a stone road is already being built that joins Sakarpus with the rest of the empire. We learn that most of the soldiers eat Scylvendi rations. It’s an enormous undertaking.

We learn that Kellhus himself has the idea to let his two “sons” befriend Sorweel. The POV quotes him, “When he becomes a brother to them, he will be a son to me.” We are left completely in the dark as to whether Kellhus actually means this. Neither Moënghus nor Kayûtas are particularly amicable, and Kellhus must know this. Also, Sorwell is paranoid and thin-skinned, yet well aware of the motivation for befriending him. So what’s Kellhus doing? Does he count on Sorweel’s antagonistic reaction? Sorweel is summoned like a servant, and by a slave! Is the encounter with Tasweer of house Ostaroot may also be a construction, though this would posit Porsparian’s complicity, which I find far-fetched. Still, they couldn’t have messed up the whole scheme to befriend Sorweel worse if they’d tried.

Kay and Moe2 and mightily entertaining. I think there is a plot hole in that Moe2 understands Sakarpic sufficiently well to make his “Because we’re wearing our breeches” quip to Sorweel’s (Skakarpic) question. There’s no reason to believe he has any facility with languages. Still… maybe he could have learned that much, in particular if Kellhus told him to. Kay is perfect, just a step below Kellhus, enough to make him human.

The scenes with Porsi show us that he’s a Yatwerian. We get the first glimpse of Weird Stuff: Porsi’s tear blisters Sorweel’s hand.

There are a few scenes concerning Sorweel’s mother (with storks) and father (who turns into beetles) that don’t give me much. Clearly, Sorweel is conflicted between his heritage and his uncharted new role. He tries to find solace in this ancestors, but it turns to ashes. (Or, as it were, beetles.)

The short chapter ends with Kellhus showing himself, in a splendidly choreographed event, to his army to start the march towards Golgotterath. Even many men of Sakarpus are joining him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unjon and Triskele

IIRC, Bakker said something like "yeah, the trees are important" in answer to a questio on the three-seas forum. Do not remember details, but someone that still has searching capability over there could maybe pull the quote

I remember asking Scott about that back on Three Seas ( I posted there as "Mithfanion" , funny to see some of the questions I posed back then come back to our discussions here). He may have answered about it in another question as well, but he made it clear to me that trees have great significance to the Nonmen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chapter 8:

“We brave the halls of Cil-Aujas.”

This chapter sets up another of the books homages, to the passage through Moria in Fellowship. There, the pass over the Carhadras is blocked, here, it’s the Ochain pass.

This is heavy authorial railroading, of course. Is Kellhus railroading this as well? Is this why Incariol is here in the first place? Because he’d know, and brave, the halls? I say “no”. Kellhus can’t manipulate the weather. He could, of course, manipulate the company of Thunyeri chieftain Feather. Perhaps there is no blizzard? Hm… but how can conspirators count on Incariol remembering, when he’s such an erratic?

The main reason to look for a deception is the chapter’s opening quote, which is about lies and deception and secrets.

Character development: Acka warms up to a company of Scalpoi called the Bitten and becomes “friends with the men the had in all likelihood killed.” The descriptive passages of men sitting around campfires are very good. We also get some insight in to Scalpoi morals with the rules of the Slog. That’s the pirate’s code in Pirates.

Mim also returns to the plot, predictably on her back. We are only allowed glimpses of her backstory in the way she handles herself among horny men, and it’s enough to turn my stomach at least. With Serwë and Mim, we now have two fully realised Bakker characters that have endured a life in sexual slavery, and with different outcomes. Where Serwë found her meaning in a complete obliteration of agency, Mim has been much stronger, and has turned exceptionally bitter, even among a cast of characters not noted for their cheerful attitudes.

Despite Bakker’s usually careful and explicit character development, I find Acka’s decision to teach her the Gnosis a bit sudden. The rules of narration would require there to be some kind of external event that effects this chance of attitude. Now, I don’t much like the rules of narration—people don’t behave like that—, but I would like Acka to justify the decision to himself. It’s quite monumental, compared to his book-long agonising of teaching the Gnosis to Kel. Of course, he is no longer a Mandate schoolman. Still, Bakker makes so many other conflicts explicit (sometimes to a fault) that I would have liked a few more pages of Acka whining.

Another thing: Bakker is a good and honest observer of men’s sexual appetite. Some of the scenes are pregnant with sexual aggression, and many of the small details (such as the gallantry of the Bitten towards Mim, the empty looks when Scalpoi commit the glimpses of Mim’s torn leggings to memory) are very precise.

Ah, and Acka gets to use the Gnosis, if only for an Odaini concussion cant and the Compass of Noshainrau. (Note “—inrau”!)

From the Arboreal perspective, this is a depressing chapter: A bunch of trees are felled by the Compass: oaks, elms, and maples. We learn that Sranc can hide in trees, apparently without the trees doing much about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there's quite a bit of authorial railroading in Akka teaching Mim the gnosis, or at least language instruction. The obvious reason to teach her more is after she demonstrates what she can do with a chorae at the end of the book, but if that were the 'big trigger' that gets Akka to teach her we'd miss out on some valuable info in the remaining Moria chapters.

And it seems pretty silly on a reread that they let snow block their path when Akka uses the gnosis to cut through the ice sealing the top of the endless stair at the end of the book. Why not use the gnosis to cut a path through the blocked path?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it seems pretty silly on a reread that they let snow block their path when Akka uses the gnosis to cut through the ice sealing the top of the endless stair at the end of the book. Why not use the gnosis to cut a path through the blocked path?

Well, it’s a blizzard, not just a block of ice. The question is if Acka would be able to maintain a large enough ward about the whole group for the journey across the path. Similar to what he does in his second chapter, when he protects himself from rain. Lord Soter would be on his own, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the Arboreal perspective, this is a depressing chapter: A bunch of trees are felled by the Compass: oaks, elms, and maples. We learn that Sranc can hide in trees, apparently without the trees doing much about it.

I think we can assume these 2 facts are related.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... I would have liked a few more pages of Acka whining.

Haha, I think you're in a minority there ;)

It's the first transgression that causes the heart the most pain. As you say, he's already taught the Gnosis to Khellus without authorisation and now that he isn't a schoolman it is even more plausible that he could make this decision on a whim.

It is interesting that Akka's internal Seswatha prevented him from doing so on the first occasion via mental block, circumvented only when Kellhus inhabited Akka (i.e. 'talked directly to Seswatha'). No need for that this time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve thought about this, and I’m not sure. Acka hasn’t really given her any cants yet. They’re just doing grammar drills.

Oh, okay. I thought she cast a Light spell... but she just 'holds it for Akka', iirc now - that would be further into CA tho too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...