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Excerpt from R. Scott Bakker's The White-Luck Warrior


pat5150

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I count three times in TJE where Achamian wonders why he doesn't know who "Incariol" is despite Cleric's obvious power and Achamian being an expert on Nonmen. My conclusion is that Cleric gave a fake name . . .

Doesn't everyone think this?

because his real name was far too notorious and someone like Achamian would have recognized it immediately.

Is it your theory that he used his real name with Kosoter and the Skin Eaters before he knew that Akka would be coming on the scene? I ask because I've always assumed he's been using his "new" name for some time, and that he may have even forgotten previous names.

I have this theory I don't think I have ever posted which is about the Womb Plagues.

Womb Plague #1: All the women die

Womb Plague #2: All the babies are born dead

Womb Plague #3: ???

I like this one, N.

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I knew this would happen. We're right back at the old topics but now we have three threads.

Doesn't everyone think this?

No. At least they didn't. Maybe I've managed to be convincing for once.

Is it your theory that he used his real name with Kosoter and the Skin Eaters before he knew that Akka would be coming on the scene? I ask because I've always assumed he's been using his "new" name for some time, and that he may have even forgotten previous names.

Well, there's a decent chance that the Sagas have a line somewhere about how the traitorous Cet'ingira was thereafter called Mekeritrig. Normal people with a good head for trivia could remember that, especially if Mekeritrig was an important character, and even more especially if his naming was handled like the Melkor/Morgoth thing in The Silmarillion. And even if the percentage of knowledgeable people is low, probabilities have a habit of piling up under an extended time.

Maybe Kosoter knows more if he has indeed been assigned to be Cleric's minder by Kellhus. Maybe Sarl too if he is indeed Cleric's book.

I like this one, N.

Thanks! :)

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4.

New spell. Cant of Sideways Stepping. As observed upthread, clearly not teleporting.

That one caught my attention too. Am I straying too far into crackpot theory territory if I venture to guess that it enables one to pass through solid objects? That would certainly aid in creating the sculpted walls in the !man mansions. How the heck would you do it otherwise?

What are some other options?

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That was how it sounded to me, but then I was like "really?" That kinda seems like something that would require a 2nd inutteral.

True. That gave me pause too.

How would you carve the walls like that, though?

ETA: Of course, there's the altogether boring and somewhat mundane method of carving one slab, slipping another in place, carving that, and so on. That's how I'd do it. But these are Nonmen we're talkin' 'bout here!

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That would certainly aid in creating the sculpted walls in the !man mansions. How the heck would you do it otherwise?

What are some other options?

For what - the cant or carving?

For the cant, there's the phasing ability that is mentioned. I suspect that isn't it though; I think that it's a cant to allow you to go to a connected place from one to another. To walk through passageways that are only there magically. Note that the description makes it sound like he doesn't go through the stone literally - but that he blinks and he's in another room. It's almost instantaneous.

But it can't be direct teleportation because that requires a second inutteral. So if it's not phasing (there's no travel time) and it's not teleportation like Kellhus does it, what can it be? The only thing I can think of is that it's an activation of a transporter-like ability; that the blind wall is attuned to the spot in the Pausal and that's how you're supposed to get there, but only sorcerers can.

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For what - the cant or carving?

For the cant, there's the phasing ability that is mentioned. I suspect that isn't it though; I think that it's a cant to allow you to go to a connected place from one to another. To walk through passageways that are only there magically. Note that the description makes it sound like he doesn't go through the stone literally - but that he blinks and he's in another room. It's almost instantaneous.

But it can't be direct teleportation because that requires a second inutteral. So if it's not phasing (there's no travel time) and it's not teleportation like Kellhus does it, what can it be? The only thing I can think of is that it's an activation of a transporter-like ability; that the blind wall is attuned to the spot in the Pausal and that's how you're supposed to get there, but only sorcerers can.

I admit I didn't read the rest of the thread, so I didn't see the phasing discussion. I had vague thoughts about that too, nothing coherent enough for a theory, though.

Bakker's his usual coy and elusive self, I see from this blurb. He certainly chose a great passage to tease us with!

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Actually I take that back; it's very literal. It says 'he trod through solid stone'. So I think it's clear that it's not teleportation, it's phasing of some sort. It sounds very much like the flying cant; instead of walking through the echo of the ground (but you're still walking) you can walk through the stone (but you're still walking). And I bet that it has a lot of issues in terms of direction or height; if you mess up and the cant ends, hey, you get to be in solid rock.

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Even for Nonmen the second inutteral was special. Su'juroit is the only character other than Kellhus known to have achieved it. I think the Nonmen were just good at carving from less-than-ideal positions.

:lol:

No DOUBT!

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1.

I take this to mean that Acka has had this dream many times by now, but this is the first time it proceeds past the opening of the gate. Still, I speculate that the dream is new in the sense that Acka did not already dream it in Judging Eye. In particular, it’s not part of the normal Seswatha programming broadcast to the Mandati for the last centuries.

I disagree, I think the passage indicates that Akka and Seswatha can both recognize dreams as real or not, even if not seen before, it would be worthwhile comparing to the dream that was interrupted by the cants of calling or whatever it was in TDTCB I think (in Atyersus?), to look at how Akka/Ses perceive the dream when they know it's being interrupted by another agency. There's a passiveness to Akka following along the lead, letting Ses show the way that I think is significant. Akka has the same passiveness in the first dream of TJE, which was a completely new dream, he followed along Seswatha. But dreams that Akka has had many times tend to rarely refer to Akka as Seswatha, Akka has generally replaced Seswatha and perceives himself as himself, as it is written, rather than perceiving himself as Seswatha.

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I think for a race that sees like they do, the carving of really, really intricate systems didn't require specific cants or stoneshaping or anything like that. There's no mark on the carvings they do, for instance. Nothing looks horribly blasphemous.

My suspicion is that they used magic in certain places (such as flying to get there and the like) but it was a relgious rite to them to do this level of detail. And to their eye they had to get it done so perfectly; if they didn't it would look ugly and obscene.

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It wasn't THAT funny. I just giggled when I read it. They'd surely have to be contortionists to chisel away at stone walls such that their carvings were layered on top of each other to such an extent in the way described. Then when you said they were experts at carving under less than ideal positions...

Oh, never mind. sorry. Sometimes things strike me as funny when, strictly speaking, they're really not.

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There's a part in TJE when they come into the Cujaran Shrine in Cil-Aujas and Achamian mentions to Mimira that some Nonmen worshipers had worn grooves into the wall within their foreheads. Also, building up to that he mentions that the Nonmen were driven to "carving" excess only after they began to go Erratic.

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So the last time I read through all of this was when TJE first came out.... and I realise, I need a fucking flow chart to make sense of who's what, and how everything is related... sort of similar to Akka's method of working out the Holy War.

Is there anybody who can help me out? :D

edit: flow chart, not pie chart, silly me

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I just read it again and I'll echo that it really seems like the notion about the watcher and the watched seems to be a big deal. In this little chapter it is described as being applied to all existence and not just sorcery.

Agreed. But, as always, I want to suggest that we're getting this information from a particular perspective. This doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it's partial. It seems clear that we're never going to get a clear statement from anyone with the authority to know (the author, the one god if he/she exists) about the precise metaphysical reality of Earwa. I assume, however, we'll keep learning things from different perspectives. And I imagine that at the end of the day we'll able to arrive at some rough idea (or perhaps competing ideas) about the metaphysical reality by triangulating among beliefs and reverse engineering from what we observe to be true.

Here, I wonder just whose idea this is. Here's the quote: ". . . enslaved souls, whose only purpose was to complete the circuit between watcher and watched that was the foundation of all reality, sorcerous or not." Is Seswatha ventriloquizing a Nonman idea about metaphysical reality, articulating his own understanding, or is this something where there is agreement between certain parties?

This seems important as a Nonman notion of a metaphysical reality underpinned by "the circuit between watcher and watched" would be very different than the same idea as articulated by a believer in Inrithism.

Also, philosophy types out there: get on this. Hegelian dialectic? Levinasian face of the other? Kantian something or other?

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So the last time I read through all of this was when TJE first came out.... and I realise, I need a fucking flow chart to make sense of who's what, and how everything is related... sort of similar to Akka's method of working out the Holy War.

Is there anybody who can help me out? :D

edit: flow chart, not pie chart, silly me

I always thought that Akka's chart was singularly unhelpful. What did he really sort out by it? Nothing, really, that I can see - unlike writing down all of the Seswatha dreams, which IMO is the best idea he's had so far. And don't all Mandati do that anyway?

ETA: And did everyone cringe at the concept of all the enslaved souls acting as doorkeepers? Just me? :dunno:

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