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Excerpt from R. Scott Bakker's The White-Luck Warrior


pat5150

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Here's the thing, Finn - from a metascientific perspective it doesn't actually matter that much what the real underpinning is. The important point is that functionally you do need a watcher, you do need a watch, and you can create experimental results that validate a theory by doing this again and again.

Even if it's like Newton being wrong in relativistic cases the general theory is basically sound. There might be more nuance to it, but the notion that the presence of a watcher somehow creates a causal link explicitly is a fundamental fact of the universe that can be shown be experiment to be valid.

That's a big deal.

Ajenics, as far as I know, wasn't doing experiments to demonstrate some of this. This is one of the first experiments we've seen that shows these results, and it's widely accepted enough (by nonmen and Sohonc at least) that it's as close to a scientific fact as you'll likely find.

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By the way....did Akka ever learn about Moenghus or was Cnaiur the only one in the entire Holy War that knew where Kellhus was really headed?

I think the official word of where he went off to was to see his "father," which most interpreted as the God. I know at least Esme knew that. Akka told Cnaiur he was headed toward that tree... (can't think of where it was called, now.) Putting two and two together, ya got me. :P

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Here's the thing, Finn - from a metascientific perspective it doesn't actually matter that much what the real underpinning is. The important point is that functionally you do need a watcher, you do need a watch, and you can create experimental results that validate a theory by doing this again and again.

Even if it's like Newton being wrong in relativistic cases the general theory is basically sound. There might be more nuance to it, but the notion that the presence of a watcher somehow creates a causal link explicitly is a fundamental fact of the universe that can be shown be experiment to be valid.

That's a big deal.

Ajenics, as far as I know, wasn't doing experiments to demonstrate some of this. This is one of the first experiments we've seen that shows these results, and it's widely accepted enough (by nonmen and Sohonc at least) that it's as close to a scientific fact as you'll likely find.

Hmmmm. You seem to have a better understanding of this passage than I do, Kal. I get that we have a functioning apparatus and that we, therefore, have *something* demonstrable about the way things work. I just don't know what that something is. Can you elaborate a bit on what you see as the function of the enslaved souls here? Or what "watcher" and "watched" mean in this context?

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I think he's saying;

because it's a mechanism, it's operating under scientific principles. An objective reproducable result is derived from a repeatable process. Therefore it escapes the purveiw of philosophy.

There are philosophical implications though, ergo, as Ajencis probably wasn't aware of this sort of sorcerous machinery we should perhaps expect that conclusions drawn may invalidate some of Ajencis' arguements.

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I immediately thought of that extract because it's good, I love Seswatha's Dream sequences, there's a lot of food for thought, and it's spoiler-free.

Patrick

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Thanks for posting this Pat. Been checking out your blog for awhile now.

I'm curious about the idea of "enslaved souls". If sorcery leads to damnation, doesn't it make sense that being bound into rock is actually a better fate than being a plaything for Ciphrang? Seems like magi would be lining up to play this role as they reached old age.

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Ciphrang only definately get the souls of those who mess with the Daimos. It's not confirmed what form damnation takes for other sorcerers. Some of the epigraphs (i.e. Zaranthius) suggest that damnation is not even a certainty (despite the evidence of the Mark and the J.E.).

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I'm a bit confused by whether or not there is supposed to be a hyphen between the words "white" and "luck," and there seems to be some inconsistency.

Scot really needs to settle the issue once and for all. Is it a luck warrior that is white, or a warrior of luck that is white, or...?

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Well, the semantic nature of words is the basis of shared belief. Actually operating as a sentient being requires belief. Thats why Descartes' 'Cogito ergo sum' is famous - it's the belief you cannot escape, the fact that you think is the only evidence of your existence and its entirely subjective and does not extend to other sentient entities (i.e. you don't really know if other people think). At some level you have to trust what your senses are telling you and just believe...

The author is ripping on a failure to question instilled beliefs and is doing so in a context where it is extremely difficult to do so. Is the reality of the Tusk engendered because it is scripture or because people believe its' scripture? Who even wrote it? We (and Earwans at large) don't know. So is there value in questioning beliefs if the very act of doing so may damn your soul for eternity? (see Inrau) etc etc

Hope that perspective helps :P

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I suppose we'll never have definitive answers regarding the nature of salvation/damnation. I hope we get more on the nature of enslaving souls, as it does, upon reflection, seem somewhat strange Akka would go along with a soul being tormented in the Waathi Doll. But then we don't even know what souls exactly are yet.

edit: fixed spelling of Waathi

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It occurs to me that Seswatha is awfully... expositive in this dream. His thoughts are almost completely about history and architecture instead of the current affairs in his life.

You could blame this on Bakker trying to infodump, but there is also a possible in-world explanation. If my theory about Cleric sending these dreams to Achamian is correct, Cleric would need to make up some plausible thoughts for Seswatha to have, and a dream like this with long stretches of nothing much happening poses a challenge for verisimilitude. It would be easy to contradict something that Achamian already knows. So thus Cleric settled for the easy way out of having Seswatha think very generic thoughts.

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I hope we get more on the nature of enslaving souls, as it does, upon reflection, seem somewhat strange Akka would go along with a soul being tormented in the Waathi Doll.

Welcome to the board, sciborg2.

To me, life in a Waathi doll seems pretty sweet compared to an eternity of agony. I’d take that deal. It’s possible that the other enslaved souls made a similar decision.

What do you choose: Eternal pain or being a door?

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(...)enslaved souls, whose only purpose was to complete the circuit between watcher and watched that was the foundation of all reality, sorcerous or not.

I've been thinking about this bit for a couple days now. It's been mentioned already that this passage adds meaning to the No-God's question. Fascinating stuff. I'd like to add that there is a scene between Esmi and Maithanet in TJE (when Kelmomas murders Samarmas, I think) when Maithanet tells Esmi that the gods did not see the first Apocalypse and they are blind to the No-God. I think it is implied that the gods are shut off from the world during this time.

If the circuit between the watcher and the watched is the foundation of all reality, then what are the consequences if the gods cannot see?

Bakker has mentioned on his blog that it is in TWLW that we start to see what's really at stake in the story. Obviously something bigger than saving the world. We've known about that aspect since the first book. Is existence itself threatened? Or am I approaching the question from the wrong way?

I don't know. Thoughts?

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Welcome to the board, sciborg2.

To me, life in a Waathi doll seems pretty sweet compared to an eternity of agony. I’d take that deal. It’s possible that the other enslaved souls made a similar decision.

What do you choose: Eternal pain or being a door?

Thanks for the welcome Happy Ent!

Yeah, I would much rather be bound into a portal than suffer at the hands of demons or gods creating Hells in the Outside. It's interesting that the text uses the term "enslaved", implying there is something unwilling about this. But then we know that they kept slaves, so perhaps these are the souls of military enemies or even just purchased slaves. It may not be torment, but it likely eternal (unless someone destroys the gateway).

Funny, as much as I want to understand Bakker's world better, I also hope Bakker keeps some mystery in the metaphysical. I like that we never get a full grasp on the nature of these things.

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I don't know. Thoughts?
I think we're metamechanically getting somewhere.

We already know that in order to perform magic you need to have a soul. Skin spies can't most of the time because of this lack of soul.

Posit: interaction between the Outside and the material world requires soulful presence. If you want to magically power something it requires a soul of some sort - whether it be a motive or enslaved soul. Magic is normally powered by motive souls - the Few. They have an explicit connection to the Outside (well, all souled beings do, but theirs is more potent).

Second posit: all souled creatures have that soul as part of the Outside innately. Their soul is of two parts: the Outside part and a connected part materially. When they die, they sever the connection. In some facet think of it as everyone is a Wathi doll, controlled (or at least inhabited) by a soul on the Outside.

We know that intelligence does not imply a soul. Skin spies have intelligence but do not have souls, usually. Those with souls are very, very rare.

We believe that humans require souls to be born as well; you can't lose your soul without losing your life, and things like the babies all dying and no successful fertilization of humans when the No-God severed the connection with the Outside enforces this. An aside: the No-God didn't sever the connection with the Outside, did it? It actually enforced the Penumbra of the Outside and removed the ability for the life/soul linkage to occur. Existing links (like Seswatha, the Consult and other mages) were unaffected.

So what does this all imply about the No-God? Quite literally, the No-God could be construed as an unwatched presence. They state explicitly that the gods cannot see the No-God at all (are blind to his presence). We had thought that was a side effect of the chorae carapace, but what if that's the design spec? What if that's an explicit feature?

If that's the case - if the No-God was designed to house something that could not be seen by the Gods - how is it able to do magic? Here's the trick.

I think the No-God is a paradoxical entity. It is an upgraded Chorae, essentially. It is something that has a connection to the Outside but cannot be seen by the Outside. Because it is blocked it creates its own causal loop; since nothing sees it as it truly is, it cannot be defined by the underlying metaphysics of the world.

It is a schrodinger's box, basically, except for gods or the Outside. It is a designed place where no metaperception can breach. That was why the Heron Spear defeated it - because it pierced that box and allowed for Outside viewers to see, which collapsed the metaphysical wave function.

Now what's in the box? I think we might have a causal loop of watcher and watched in there where the only thing that can watch is itself. It defines itself because nothing else can.

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I just want to add a couple things. The excerpt seems to imply that, perhaps, the Nonmen were able to create a "false" Outside. Like they create the Coffers in an artificial reality?

Also, it states pretty explicitly that Achamian only relives the actual facts of the Dream, that only we, the "readers," experience the dead baby in hand, and that Achamian and Seswatha realize its reality at the same time within the Dream, after us.

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