Excerpt from R. Scott Bakker's The White-Luck Warrior

[Curethan]

"the soul that encounters Him passes no further"

nomnomnom

I speculate that topoi (and mebe Tsummarah) are made of soul giblets.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Regarding watching and being watched: As noted, makes for an interesting wrinkle when considering the No-God's quotes. However, there's more - I was thinking about this last night while reading TTT, specifically the part where Iyokus first talks to Eli, who tells him that Kellhus sees into your soul, sees who you really are and what you fear.

That, combined with one of Kellhus's early sermons (regarding a knight who was unmanned when witnessing a dead girl on the side of the road in Shigek) and the constant references to witnessing suggests a connection between it all. Kellhus makes people feel as though they are being truly seen and thus more real in a metaphysical sense. Cnaiur wants others to witness his acts because he wants others to confirm the reality that he wants - that he is an exemplar of the People. Same with Saubon, except for Inrithi king/prince instead of the People.

Kellhus also specifically tells Akka in TTT that belief makes reality. I like the connection here, especially with Cnaiur/Saubon. They want others to believe, because that belief will make their own self-delusions true.

[lokisnow]

Now what's in the box? I think we might have a causal loop of watcher and watched in there where the only thing that can watch is itself. It defines itself because nothing else can.

All of this is outstanding to read, and I think it makes for a great thought project. Bakker projecting Solipsism into the villain.

I love the idea that the NO God is an upgraded chorae, or related to a possible (posited) false-outside that that Non-men create for the Coffers. (Note, I see this idea of a false Outside as similar to Pratchet, like the belief begets reality is similar to pratchett, the false outside is of course in a library, intended to preserve stuff, much like the Pratchett conception of L Space). Also, the coffers being a false outside makes it understandable how they could survive the destruction of the library.

But this last phrase conquered two specific images to my mind, an ouroboros, and the Janus twins. The latter immediately made me think of the battle of wills between Kelm and Sam that Sam presumably 'lost' (though he may have 'won' so far as we know).

[Sci-2]

I think the No-God is a paradoxical entity. It is an upgraded Chorae, essentially. It is something that has a connection to the Outside but cannot be seen by the Outside. Because it is blocked it creates its own causal loop; since nothing sees it as it truly is, it cannot be defined by the underlying metaphysics of the world.

It is a schrodinger's box, basically, except for gods or the Outside. It is a designed place where no metaperception can breach. That was why the Heron Spear defeated it - because it pierced that box and allowed for Outside viewers to see, which collapsed the metaphysical wave function.

Now what's in the box? I think we might have a causal loop of watcher and watched in there where the only thing that can watch is itself. It defines itself because nothing else can.

I love this theory. It fits well with what we've been told so far.

I recall Akka explaining the idea of souls to Cnaiur, and the idea of the Outside leaking into the world through madness. Can't remember the exact quote and don't have TTT with me at the moment. Is the Outside flooding into the No-God's coffin...like the No-God is a mad dreaming consciousness manufactured by the Consult?

Perhaps the infinite recursion of the No-God attempting to perceive itself is what breaks the cycle of souls. As in, the souls of newborns flow into the Carapace and are lost in the swirling insanity of the No-God. In the physical world, this is represented by a whirlwind.

I think every tidbit of metaphysics that Bakker has teased us with will help explain what the No-God really is.

[unJon]

Thinking about the watcher/watched principle today, I had thoughts very similar to Kal. As he was first to publish, let me give him props and agreement :agree: and confine myself to attempting a few refinements.

Bakkerworld is an ontological world, a world where semantics define reality. The God is the entity that watches everything. It is only through this entity that anything can spring into existence. More formally, the God is that entity for which nothing is not watched.

What is the No-God? Just the opposite. The No-God is an entity that is unwatchable. In fact, even the No-God cannot watch himself. Hence the No-God constantly asking people "what do you see?" (So my first refinement on Kal is not that the No-God is a causal self-contained watcher/watched loop.) The No-God is quite literally unsure of what it is, and by definition, no one else can watch it either.

We now have the classic paradox of the immovable object and the unstoppable force. The God and the No-God cannot co-exist. The existence of one, logically and necessarily, negates the existence of another. In a universe where there exists an unwatchable object (No-God), there cannot also exist an entity that can watch anything and everything (God). The No-God is exactly analogous to a chorae specifically tailored to negate the God. By summoning the No-God, the consult popped the God out of existence. Similarly, when the No-God is "killed" by the Heron Spear, the God pops back into existence (maybe by virtue of the Ontological Argument).

Some side theories:

1) If God does not exist while the No-God does, how do other souled creatures continue to survive? Isn't the watcher/watched cycle broken?

No. Once a souled creature exists it can support it's own watcher/watched cycle. One souled creature can 'watch' other entities. Maybe that's even what it means to have a 'soul.' More importantly, a soul can watch itself. So once a soul is brought into existence it is never destroyed. It is eternal.

2) How does sorcery continue to work while the No-God exists?

Sorcery does not need to tap into the "Outside" to work. Sorcery works by having a souled creature fix the meaning of something so precisely that he can 'watch' that thing and that thing therefore springs into existence. It's a bit of god's creative power. However, the thing/power/magic called into existence by the sorcerer does not agree with what was there before. It does not comport exactly to what the God was watching in that location at the moment before the sorcery. It disagrees and the residual of that disagreement is the bruise in the Onta. The Mark.

3) Why does the No-God stop live children being born?

The soul of a child is created by God (Politically Correct Alert!!!) sometime between conception and birth. It is only God that can create the souled creature by 'watching' it and fixing it into existence. Without God to do so, no souled creatures can enter the world.

Corollary: Animals and non-souled creatures were able to continue having children while the No God is alive. (Is this contradicted by the books?)

Why can't non-souled humans be born? Good question. Don't know. Maybe humans in bakkerworld need a soul to be alive (see my prior speculations on Bakkerworld procreation operating on the concept of "preformation.")

4) Why aren't the gods aware of the No God? Two possibilities. Maybe the gods really are facets of the God and literally did not exist when the No-God existed. Or, maybe the gods are their own agencies, but because they are Outside, they were severed from seeing anything about the world. (I'm still not sure how this second explanation would work in practice, as I haven't yet thought of why the No God would sever a link to the Outside? Is the Outside simply God?)

Corollary: Powers like those of Yatwer shown in TJE by Nan and that dude that rubbed mud on Sorweel's face did not work while the No God existed.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

I'm kinda following all this. But one thing I keep coming back to: If the No-god is some entity that can't even watch itself, or can watch itself but nothing else inside the carapace, how does it control all the sranc, bashrag, and wracu? How does it know where to go? How does it know when and when not to "take the field?"

Or, how does the No-god watch out of the carapace if the watched cannot watch into the carapace?

Brain melting...

[unJon]

Ah, great question. Just because the No God is unwatchable, doesn't mean that the No God can't watch other things.

[pat5150]

You guys are making my head spin!

Patrick

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I was under the impression that the actual troops, Sranc and whatnot, were bound by the existence of the No-God but were not directly under its control, or if so then only via proxies such as the Consult and the Inchoroi.

[Finn]

Very interesting ideas Kal, but it makes me want to ask if you still believe that Kellhus will turn out to be the No-God somehow.

I haven't sorted out what I think about the whole watcher-watched business yet, but I'd say this new bit of information (and Kal's and others' interpretation of it) lines up well with Kellhus eventually becoming (or always having been) the No-God.

If the universe runs according to some dialectical relation between watcher and watched (and watched and watcher), then there is - by definition - no escaping the darkness that comes before. In other words, if metaphysical reality is a circuit, there's no getting before or behind it. And so there can be no self-moving soul. Unless, that is, you break the circuit and/or rewrite the definition, which, I take it, is what the no-god (the ultimate chorae in Kal's theory) is designed to do.

[jurble]

Maybe the gods really are facets of the God and literally did not exist when the No-God existed.

Mmm, Kelmomas saw the Gods as he was dying, so I think they existed, assuming the Gods were the ones that gave him the prophecy. Moreover, the God did not even exist yet at the time of the Apocalypse. For all we know, the Gods are blind to the No-God, but the God isn't. If Kellhus is a prophet, then the God appears not to be blind to the threat posed by his resurrection.

[Kalbear]

which, I take it, is what the no-god (the ultimate chorae in Kal's theory) is designed to do.

Yep, that was pretty much my thoughts. :)

[Nerdanel]

I'm still not sure what to make of the wather/watched thing...

If my theory is correct about Seswatha in the dream being a construction of Cleric who is really Mekeritrig who is really the founder of the Dûnyain, the wather/watched thing could be only Mekeritrig's own crackpot theory. If a tree falls in a forest and no souled creature is there to witness it, does it make a sound? I think it does. If Eärwa indeed is the world as the ancients saw it, then it shouldn't be postmodern.

But that doesn't mean that the rules of damnation and such can't be changed. In the Greek mythology Cronos usurped his father Ouranos and Zeus usurped his father Cronos as the king of gods. If Lucifer could defeat the Christian God things could conceivably be very different indeed. Divine decrees are different from immutable laws of nature in that kind of system.

And as to what is going on, I think the deal with the No-God is that when summoned it's a deific-level power in the World, giving it the advantage of proximity. This proximity allows it to capture any unprotected souls in its area of influence, which means it can take the souls of those dying or being born and do whatever it wants with them. (The Gods could just barely save the soul of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II as a major intervention, quite possibly only because the No-God wasn't at the battlefield at the time.) And when in the World the No-God's area of influence is as large as the whole planet.

[Papirolle]

So the No-God is the self-moving soul the Dunyain strive to become? :shocked:

[unJon]

Maybe. If something cannot be 'watched', then how could anyting come efore it? Though at the same time, I think the God also meets the definition: if something 'watches' everything, then there can be no darkness for it.

[Galactus]

Maybe. If something cannot be 'watched', then how could anyting come efore it? Though at the same time, I think the God also meets the definition: if something 'watches' everything, then there can be no darkness for it.

Bishop Berkely? For anything to exist it needs to be observed. If it's not observed it's status is unknown and hence it doesen't exist. However, God watches everything, hence he makes sure the world exists by watching it.

[Sci-2]

But that doesn't mean that the rules of damnation and such can't be changed. In the Greek mythology Cronos usurped his father Ouranos and Zeus usurped his father Cronos as the king of gods. If Lucifer could defeat the Christian God things could conceivably be very different indeed. Divine decrees are different from immutable laws of nature in that kind of system.

Made me think of Devil's advocate:

"You lose! It's in the Book!"

"Who do you think wrote that book? When we win, we'll write our own book!"

I don't the Consult can usurp the gods, only shut the gate against them. It's funny that for them salvation is largely a status quo, rather than an exaltation. Though I think it seems there are few immutable laws in Bakker's world, though I personally hope we don't end up in a situation where all reality is subjective and reshaped. The stakes we've been presented with are the ones that interest me.

And as to what is going on, I think the deal with the No-God is that when summoned it's a deific-level power in the World, giving it the advantage of proximity. This proximity allows it to capture any unprotected souls in its area of influence, which means it can take the souls of those dying or being born and do whatever it wants with them. (The Gods could just barely save the soul of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II as a major intervention, quite possibly only because the No-God wasn't at the battlefield at the time.) And when in the World the No-God's area of influence is as large as the whole planet.

This makes sense, that the No-God is a god in the world. Though limited by the Carapace, it still is dent in space-time. Though I don't think it captures souls in its proximity, or at least not just those. Though we also don't know - or at least I can't remember - if the rest of the world experienced the stillborn phenomenon so it is hard to judge its influence. Seems more like it captures souls coming into the world, rather than those leaving it.

Although I also like what you are saying here, that the No-God has to come in through the Carapace, that when not on the Battlefield it simply exists in the Outside. Or perhaps it doesn't exist at all, as a conscious entity. Like a hard drive with no electrons running into it. Data is there, but its not "alive".

What is interesting about the Few is sorcery is based on memory and visualization of reality. That memory is the key to magic, to being able to see the world in that way, further shows why the Nonmen will do anything to remember. We see Khellus refer to magic as being a recollection of the God, but what he really thinks is unknown to us.

Speaking of the God, there's also Mimara's experience of what I believe to be Outside via the Chorae, which seems to counter all the topos leading to a nightmarish realm. Also, it seemed like whatever Akka was telling her about the Judging Eye was only half-truths if not outright lies.

[Borque]

Womderful. All this metaphysical discussion just from a couple of pages of relatively spoiler-free text. Reminds me why I like these books so much. :)

[Happy Ent]

It sounds like we're getting towards the whole "If a leave falls in the forest but there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

That would be what is known as a “leave of absence”.

(I’m killing myself.)

[Kalbear]

I'm kinda following all this. But one thing I keep coming back to: If the No-god is some entity that can't even watch itself, or can watch itself but nothing else inside the carapace, how does it control all the sranc, bashrag, and wracu? How does it know where to go? How does it know when and when not to "take the field?"

It's clearly a semantic failing. Watched and watcher in this case is not using mark 1 eyeballs. The No-God could be perceived by most everyone, both physically and otherwise (the dread feeling everyone got). It wasn't just flailing around blindly, either.

In this context, I suspect that to be seen is to require a specific connection to the Outside and to God. If you aren't seen by God you weren't created by Him and therefore...what? You can't exist.

But you do exist. Hence, paradox.

The important point here is that perception means a soulful interaction. Simply seeing something (like a sranc does or an animal does) isn't enough.