pat5150 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 The Inchoroi came to seal the world against the heavens, and the nonmen seem to be the master of gates and sealing things away for safekeeping. Did the Inchoroi come to Earwa with the intent of learning from the nonmen? Had the nonmen already sealed the world against Heaven before the Inchoroi came?The ending of TWLW will shine some light, albeit to a certain extent, about this. . . :)Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 argh, that's amazing, but that sort of shit should be spoilered, Pat. wow, I never actually expect any of my guesses to be remotely related to anything that will happen, and that was at best a half formed, 'what if' thought. :-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 No spoilers here...Just letting you guys know that you can expect some info regarding the Inchoroi's coming to Earwa. :)Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonman_erratic Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Bakker himself said that the Breaking of the Gates was the breaking of the fortified passes between Earwa and Eanna. However, I due agree with you in regards to "Gates" not always referring to those passes. I remember a line from the letter that NJ wrote to CC when the Inchoroi crashed the Ark. It said that the "The Halaroi howl piteously at the Gates ". I believe that the Gates referred to there has to do with the same types of Gates that Mimara closed. We don't know exactly where Viri was located but where the Ark crashed at is pretty far from Great Kayarsus and I don't see why or how the men of Eanna would howl at the Gates for something that happened on the other side of the world. That leaves me to believe that "Gates" being referred to is something closer, maybe located inside or near the Viri mansion. Also, wasn't there a part before the Skin Eaters entered the Black Halls were Cleric started screaming about the Gates being unguarded when the world is so black or something to that effect? Or am I misremembering?ETA the exact line from the letter sent by Nin’janjin to Cû’jara-Cinmoi. My understanding:Halaroi = MenCunuroi = NonmenInchoroi = AliensMen can be subdivided into Emwama (original human inhabitants of Earwa), and the 5 tribes (who invaded from Eanna and currently reside around the 3 seas, formerly made up the nations of the north).References to Gates:Gates = doors/portal entering a nonman mansionGates = The mountain fortresses guarding the KayarsusGates = The gates to the outsideGate = The great gate of wheels guarding the Sohonc coffers (i assume an enslaved-soul guarded entrance similar to a portal to enter a nonman mansion?)I envisioned the Halaroi who howled at the gates of Viri being 'wild' Emwama who inhabited the north and sought refuge at the nonman mansion of Viri following the crash of the Inchoroi ark... Literally at the front doors.WRT Cleric's little meltdown in front of Cil Aujas... "The Gates unguarded... And with the world grown so dark... This is an outrage! An Outrage!"... In light of the teaser bit from the entrance to the Sohonc coffers, I also envision the gates to Cil Aujas containing some type of enslaved-soul type 'lock' on them which had been destroyed during/since the fall of Cil Aujas. Also I assumed the Black disc/seal that came after the Skin eaters on their way up the great medial screw as they fled Cil Aujas was some type of enslaved-soul powered alarm system/internal gate that was activated by the presence of the Skin Eaters. I know previous threads postulated that the black seal was related to the topos nature of Cil Aujas. I'm not as sure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curethan Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Been having some fascinating thoughts concerning the watching thing. I've resumed my reread of TDTCB at part IV: the warrior and picking up on something new to me in C and K's early exchanges that extends, on reflection, throughout the trilogy. Namely the Dunyain ability to 'inhabit' or possess people.K. "Who gave him the dye?"C. ..."I did"...C. "I was possessed!"..."Possessed by a demon!"K. "Indeed,"..." my father inhabited you. I think the most explicit example is in TTT when Esme's PoV reveals she knows she is speaking words on K's behalf. Thinking about it, there really isn't much difference between this, the Cants of Compulsion, the Inchoroi "passion touch". Perhaps the dunyain abolished knowledge of existing sorcery to work on a much deeper level that hinges on absolute understanding. The Psukhe is based on pure passion and doesn't leave a mark, so perhaps the logos doesn't leave a mark for similar reasons. Gnostic and anagogic sorcery hinges on shortcuts, thats would be why it A leaves a mark and B produces effects faster. hmmmeta. More crazed speculation. I guess Lil Kel and his bro had some kind of 'inhabiting' loop happening and when Lil K killed his bro its made some kind of sorcerous link to the outside via his bro's soul. (Some portion of which is the voice Lil K hears?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 TriskeI love that quote, there is real wisdom in it, but I doubt that it pertains to the issue we see in the excerpt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdanel Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 One thing I noticed: The faces on the gate are carved of black diorite. The statue of Ajokli in TJE is carved of black diorite. Significant?Wikipedia says diorite is a relatively rare rock. It is hard and durable, which makes it hard to carve but enduring. Marble in contrast is soft and easy to carve with a surface translucency close to human skin but wears quickly. Therefore it's quite interesting that in the Great Gate of Wheels the moving gears are marble and the faces diorite. You might expect it to be the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 TriskeI love that quote, there is real wisdom in it, but I doubt that it pertains to the issue we see in the excerpt.I don't know if it speaks to the metaphysics, but it does help us understand the desperation of the No-God to be known. The No-God lacks the inner self AND the outer self. It seems its hope is that be being seen, it will be able to see itself.The quote actually, for me, gives me a (perhaps inaccurate) sense of what the No-God wants. It doesn't fear damnation, as far as we know, so its goals are rather murky.Therefore it's quite interesting that in the Great Gate of Wheels the moving gears are marble and the faces diorite. You might expect it to be the other way around.That is interesting. I am hoping we learn more about these "enslaved" souls - I wonder if they are humans or the magical equivalents of AIs. Reminds me of the D&D setting Eberron, with the elemental binding for magi-tech's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Was thinking about the quote, about the gaze of self and other defining a being's reality. Perhaps the No-God is partially, or totally, pulled from the Outside. We've seen that Hell perhaps has agency, hunger, when only Mimara stands against it holding the Chorae. Perhaps the No-God is the substance of the Outside given independent consciousness.What if the No-God cannot be fully defined until the world is closed. Right now, when it tries to apprehend itself, its gaze is forced to stretch back and attempt to take in the totality of the Outside - an impossible task. And given that souls, combined, are the God, perhaps for mortals to gaze upon it would reinforce the will of God - meaning the dominant reality agreed upon by the gods and souls in the world - and obliterate it.Once the world is closed, the No-God, like a soap bubble whose circumference closes when parting from the child's blower, will be whole. Additionally, because the souls of the world are no longer connected to the Outside, their connection to the foundations of reality is cut off and thus, finally, the No-God can leave the Carapace without fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 Got 5 copies up for grabs here! :thumbsup: Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston de Foix Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Was thinking about the quote, about the gaze of self and other defining a being's reality. Perhaps the No-God is partially, or totally, pulled from the Outside. We've seen that Hell perhaps has agency, hunger, when only Mimara stands against it holding the Chorae. Perhaps the No-God is the substance of the Outside given independent consciousness.What if the No-God cannot be fully defined until the world is closed. Right now, when it tries to apprehend itself, its gaze is forced to stretch back and attempt to take in the totality of the Outside - an impossible task. And given that souls, combined, are the God, perhaps for mortals to gaze upon it would reinforce the will of God - meaning the dominant reality agreed upon by the gods and souls in the world - and obliterate it.Once the world is closed, the No-God, like a soap bubble whose circumference closes when parting from the child's blower, will be whole. Additionally, because the souls of the world are no longer connected to the Outside, their connection to the foundations of reality is cut off and thus, finally, the No-God can leave the Carapace without fear.I have been a casual reader of Scott Bakker's work, but I'm totally bewildered by all this talk of the Outside. Half the explanations in the blogosphere don't make sense to me. Would someone give me an idiot's guide to the Outside/No-God/Judgment of the Heavens or point me in the right direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Best go to the source:"The Dialectic of Substance and Desire was the cornerstone of the great Kyranean philosopher's metaphysics, the notion that the differences between the World and the Outside were more a matter of degree than kind. Where substance in the World denied desire—save where the latter took the form of sorcery—it became ever more pliant as one passed through the spheres of the Outside, where the dead-​hoarding realities conformed to the wills of the Gods and Demons." -The Judging EyeThe Outside is, as I understand it, both the origin of souls as well as their destination after death. It *seems*, though I'm not sure it it has been stated explicitly, that the No-God keeps souls from the Outside from entering - this is the reason no babies were born while it was in the world. Honestly, for myself, I've always been unclear as to the extent sorcerers actually believe in their own damnation - especially given the nature of the Cishaurim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Honestly, for myself, I've always been unclear as to the extent sorcerers actually believe in their own damnation - especially given the nature of the Cishaurim.Well the Cishaurim didn't think they were damned after all the Tusk is an unholy abomination so it wouldn't damn them I do wonder what the Fanim thought about the rest of the sorcerors though.The Mandate believe they are damned on some level given their saying "Though you may loose you're soul you gain the world."And in the Prince of nothing both the grandmaster of the scarlet spires and Iyokus are atheist and are surprised that the gods exist and that they are damned. the grandamster says something like " damnation another little joke we've found ourselves on the wrong side of if he his a profit then you and me are well and truly damned." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat5150 Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Amazon.ca is shipping TWLW. :)Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borque Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 And Amazon in Europe is more than a month behind. May 5, they say. :tantrum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Will Amazon.ca ship to Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Well the Cishaurim didn't think they were damned after all the Tusk is an unholy abomination so it wouldn't damn them I do wonder what the Fanim thought about the rest of the sorcerors though.The Mandate believe they are damned on some level given their saying "Though you may loose you're soul you gain the world."And in the Prince of nothing both the grandmaster of the scarlet spires and Iyokus are atheist and are surprised that the gods exist and that they are damned. the grandamster says something like " damnation another little joke we've found ourselves on the wrong side of if he his a profit then you and me are well and truly damned."Good point Darzin. That was what I was unclear of. I remember Iyokus telling the Ciphrang he summoned that it didn't matter if his soul would be consigned to torment because that was where it was headed anyway. It just seems strange to me that if damnation was a certainty, that many would dare to practice sorcery. A lifetime of power for an afterlife of damnation? But then we don't know exactly how lesser castes expect to be treated in the afterlife, much of religion seems to be about mitigating torment than expectations of reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borque Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Will Amazon.ca ship to Europe?I don't trust them, with all their beady little eyes. And they're not even a real country anyway. Seriously though, as far as I know they probably will. At least Amazon.com have no qualms with shipping to Europe. My problem is that I won't go through the trouble with cancelling my preorder on Amazon.uk and order a more expensive edition with an uglier cover on Amazon.ca.I will cancel my preorder if I'm lucky in the fine young gentleman Pat's giveaway thing though. Anyone (Pat?) know when the result will in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonman_erratic Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I picked up WLW at Chapters this morning. They weren't on the shelves yet, so I made them bust open the box in the back of the store. So far it's rocking. Hasn't blown my mind like TJE did, but I'm only about 1/5 of the way through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyhead Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Just picked up mine as well from Chapters in Canada. Will be starting it tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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