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glamazon, March 8, 2011 in Pre-ADwD Archive
Drogo died when he fell off his horse. Or maybe Drogo died when he ignored MMD and took off the poultice. Or Drogo died when MMD took him in the tent, which was before Rhaego died.Not saying that the theory is right, just that Drogo could easily have died before Rheago, at least in the terms of prophesy. My problem with the prophesy is that Rhaego was never a king; the Khalasar will not follow a child.
Drogo died when he fell off his horse. Or maybe Drogo died when he ignored MMD and took off the poultice. Or Drogo died when MMD took him in the tent, which was before Rhaego died.
Not saying that the theory is right, just that Drogo could easily have died before Rheago, at least in the terms of prophesy. My problem with the prophesy is that Rhaego was never a king; the Khalasar will not follow a child.
I think it's pretty clear that Drogo (the real one) died before Rhaego - MMD's sorcery didn't bring him back in any real sense.
While normally Rhaego wouldn't count as a king, he had already been 'crowned' as the Stallion that Mounts the World in this case.
This in general seems like another case where Mel twists a prophecy to apply to Stannis and/or herself, while GRRM lets the reader know that the prophecy is really about Dany. (See also lightbringer, AAR, etc.)
I can't really speculate who the two kings are, may be the two Baratheons Robert and Joffrey. Even though they may not be related it is the father and the son.
I think that Jon Snow may not be the son of Eddard, what if he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Then Jon would trueley be a dragon.
It could be part of a prophecy, and they are trying to use Mance and his son to fulfill it.
And interestingly enough, remember the tragedy at Summer Hall, where Egg and his son the Prince of Dragonflies both died. Maybe that was a botched attempt to fulfill the prophecy there too.
in dany's beginning chapters, viserys often says "you dont want to wake the dragon, do you?" dany says the same thing of him, that she didnt want to wake his dragon.... perhaps this is what the prophecy refers to... dany has not yet exhibited any of the manic-aggressive behaviour the other targaryens have, and maybe she just hasnt been pushed far enough yet.
so my theory
based on R+L=J
rhaegar is the father, jon is the son. dun dun dun, i think george is gonna kill jon, after dany finds out whose son he is, and that will push her over the edge....
in dany's beginning chapters, viserys often says "you dont want to wake the dragon, do you?" dany says the same thing of him, that she didnt want to wake his dragon.... perhaps this is what the prophecy refers to... dany has not yet exhibited any of the manic-aggressive behaviour the other targaryens have, and maybe she just hasnt been pushed far enough yet.so my theory based on R+L=Jrhaegar is the father, jon is the son. dun dun dun, i think george is gonna kill jon, after dany finds out whose son he is, and that will push her over the edge....just sayin'
i don't think so because that would be bitterbitter ending and Rhaegar wasn't king anyway
but waking dragon meaning waking maniacal side of Targs... interesting, very interesting - and quite possible
Rhaegar wasn't king anyway
according to Mel, these kings they're killing dont have to be "crowned", they just have to have "kings blood" i.e. Edric Storm, Maester Aemon.... in ASOS, Stannis and Mel use leeches (filled with "the boys blood" according to Davos's POV), to kill Robert, Balon, and Robb... seems to have worked pretty good, but Edric Storm is not "crowned king" nor would he be the first of Roberts bastards to stand in line for the throne, because obviously Gendry would be older... im stickin' with it. I dont want Jon to die, but its the only way i can make the prophecy fit. keep in mind this only works if Jon is Rhaegars son...which he is, obviously :P
I think this was just about Mance and his son. Burn Mance first, so when he dies his son becomes king, then burn the baby. I haven't read the preview chapter in a while, but I thought it was pretty straightforward at the time.
I think all theories are really good, but this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Viserys, is the current king, in lineage of Targs. Khal Drogo kills him, thus making Dany Queen and Drogo king, when Drogo finally dies and is burned in the pyre this fulfills the prophecy, and poof 3 dragons are born. I don't think there will be any more dragons, at least in the winged context. Jon will be revealed as a Targ after Stannis and Mance are gone.
Thanks for reading
Dany foresaw dragons being born from stone in her visions didn't she? So Melissandre should success, possibly sacrificing Stannis and Shireen, or Bran and Summer. It surely won't be Jon because he clearly does have plot armor and will die only when Dany has to forge the Lightbringer. It is known.
I think all theories are really good, but this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Viserys, is the current king, in lineage of Targs. Khal Drogo kills him, thus making Dany Queen and Drogo king, when Drogo finally dies and is burned in the pyre this fulfills the prophecy, and poof 3 dragons are born. I don't think there will be any more dragons, at least in the winged context. Jon will be revealed as a Targ after Stannis and Mance are gone.Thanks for reading
...what if it isnt?
according to Mel, these kings they're killing dont have to be "crowned", they just have to have "kings blood" i.e. Edric Storm, Maester Aemon.... in ASOS, Stannis and Mel use leeches (filled with "the boys blood" according to Davos's POV), to kill Robert, Balon, and Robb... seems to have worked pretty good,
Or Mel saw in the fires that Balon, Robb, and Joffrey were going to die, so she performed a parlor trick to make it appear she was responsible and further cement her influence in Stannis' court. Blood magic has a high price, so I'm skeptical a few drops could fuel such a powerful spell, and the three kings would have died anyway if Mel's ritual hadn't been performed.
To add my two cents to the theory, I assume Stannis' followers will attempt to fulfill the prophecy by sacrificing Mance and his son, not knowing that Mance's son had been swapped with Gilly's. I'd speculate the prophecy may have been been mistranslated, as was the case with the Prince that was Promised, and in the original version "king" may in fact be gender-neutral. Or if Jeyne is with child, there may be an attempt to find the child and sacrifice it to wake a dragon.
Does Stannis know baby isn't Manceson? In 2nd chapter, of course.
A couple observations after reading these forums for several months, but without posting:
1. I keep hearing reference to a dragon waking beneath winterfel. Having read the passage several times, I think its pretty clear that the language is merely a metaphorical description of the smoke trail rising from burned winterfel. You must bear in mind the point of view is not just through Bran, but Summer. Often Summer interprets his surroundings into animal terms: swords are claws, castles are dens, etc. The fire trail is interpreted as a giant snake.
2. There is alot of validity given on these forums to matching vague prophecy to reality. I think this is problematic for two reasons. The first is that prophecies are often vague and incomplete. This yields to obvious problems with misinterpretion because, like with Nostradomus' prophecies, it is easy to match historical events to vague prophecies in hindsight.
Second, there are two themes that run continuous throughout the series, with both being applicable to prophecies and characters alike. The first, is of the 'of mice and men' type, namely that the best plans of the characters and of prophecy's often go awry. Some well laid plans succeed (Tywin, Robb, etc), but many which are seemingly inevitable in success unravel completely. Arya, Robb, Caitlyn at the Red Wedding comes to mind, Tywin and Tyrion, Stannis, Renly, etc, etc.
The second theme is of a sophiclean sort- that often heeding a prophecy leads to the unforseen demise of the interpreter and results in the eventual fulfillment of the prophecy in a differant or unforseen way. Rhaegar is the classic example of this: As a book worm youth he reads something that he believed was true of him. This caused him to train as a warrior, become obsessed with lyanna, father jon, incite a civil war, die as a warrior leading that war, which then brought jon to the wall to be placed in a position to fight the others. This all might have been avoided if he just took the prophecy with a grain of salt, and spent his kingship preparing to fight the others as a united kingdom. In application, I suspect that Dany's insistence in being careful of betrayals will lead to her very betrayals.
So in summary, i think it is probably worth it to pay generic heed to the prophecies provided, but to take them with a grain of salt, because many are probably false, and the ones that are true are likely to have game changing turns...
I believe this is misdirection on GRRMs part.
GRRM is quite conscious of the order in which Khals die and how it matters. There is a passage in AGoT where Khal Drogo is described as killing two Khals, one after the other. The Khal is killed and then Drogo kills the son - so it's two Khals in one battle.
GRRM is showing the reader that he is paying close attention to the order in which people die in order for something to be "true". The same is repeated by Melisandre concerning Mance and the babe.
Now - as to when Drogo dies is unclear. Did he die before Rhaego - and then was he "raised" from the dead as a vegetable by MMD - only to be killed again by Dany?
Or it's possible that Drogo did not die, was only near death -- Rhaego dies and then Drogo is smothered. One dead King -- not two.
We're not meant to have these questions neatly answered. GRRM prefers that prophecies to be unclear even after they may have been fulfilled. As the reader we have better knowledge of the world and its affairs than any single POV character -- but even the reader's near omniscient knowledge is necessarily imperfect.
Whether GRRM will pick up these threads later or leave them unresolved (and, in some respects, thereby impliedly resolving them in the affirmative) is both a writing styles and a device he often employs.
We'll know near the end I should think. For now? We question. We've seen the result more closely than those who witnessed the events -- and we are STILL unclear. That's the way GRRM prefers it.
Seeing as its 15 years since the first book and even now we are debating what the hell happened in it and how it fits in -- I'd say GRRM is clearly successful in his deliberately vague and non-definitive approach to these issues...
For now, at least.
i think just becuase Mel thinks something is true doesnt make it so. Stannis is not Azor azis (spelled wrong i know) His sword is not light bringer. Its just light with no heat. pretty but i think the 1st time he mets one of the Others completly useless. Mel's interpritation of prophecey has been very sketchy from the start. the Stone dragons, Dany's fossilized dragon eggs, have already been awakened. the prophecy has already been fullfilled Mel just doesn't know it.
Mel is a misguided zelot and everyone would be well advised not to put too much stock in what she says.
I believe Deneris will go to Ashai on her way back to Westeros and there she will pick up a certain Red priestess which she met when emissaries came into the Red Desert to see the Dragons. Then when she finaly get's to the wall there will be a Red priestess showdown! :fencing:
I agree that putting any stock in prophesies in general in the GRRM-world is a slippery slope. He definitely likes to play with the concepts of fate and destiny and how/if they play into characters' lives.
I do like the father-and-son-kings-are-Drogo-and-Rhaego line. I admit there are some holes in it that we aren't simply capable of working out without being GRRM. It's his world with his cultures/peoples, it follows his rules. Period. It could be they fit perfectly - i.e. Drogo did die as a Khal and as himself when he fell off his horse/succumbed to his disease initially and that Rhaego was a metaphorical king due to some combination of being the product of Khal and Rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and being heralded as "The Stallion That Mounts the World." It's a nicer explanation than a lot of the other father-son combos I've seen posted. But then again, predicting the plots/intentions of authors of unfinished-series is often just as shady an art as characters interpreting visions. ;)
What I do love and do think is very likely though is that Melissandre is once again clawing her way up the wrong tree (and dragging Stannis behind her). As the character we see most often acting on visions and attempting to influence fate, I have a gut feeling she is also one of the most misguided in her actions. She herself states that while the flames are always true, the seer often misinterprets the time the vision depicts and its certainty/possibility. What I dread-and-can't-wait-for-simultaneously, is when Stannis realizes he's been following the wrong advice. In it's own way, I think it'll be as poignant for him as Ned Stark's loosing the game of thrones to Cersei.
Prophecy is prophecy and it won't come around just because someone tries to force events into matching the wording of some sightseer.
Personally I don't think "three headed" should mean "three people" necessarily, it could be ONE with three dragons -firespitting huge dragons in the flesh, and not some statue coming alive. That's the thing about prophecy: with them you can never tell.
I agree flames might be truthful and Melissandre misinterprets them big time, sometimes people gets a totally overstatement of their own importance: never trust people ending up well if Martin is the one writing. There's an enormous room for mistaking, and as we all know winter is coming.
I think we have two kinds of prophecy happening. The spoken kind is very, very literal, because Martin is a writer and respects the power of words. The prophecy about Cersei's childhood friend in the well meeting her death instead of marrying Jaime happened precisely, maybe with a little help from her friends. I fully expect all of Cersei's three children to die before she does.
The other kind of prophecy is visual and open to interpretation and may or may not be literal, like the various images Dany saw in the Seers' den. Melisandre gets her information by seeing visions in flame, so she could easily be mistaken .