Subterranean to release signed limiteds of Game and Clash!

[Justinian]

Thats good to know, thanks Bill!

[evogeler]

Good to hear it. Thanks for weighing in, Bill. My apologies to kishkeking! Your timing was golden, apparently.

[Geddon]

Yes, my apologies also. A spot of lucky timing for him, a spot of exceptionally unlucky timing for those unfortunates who bought a copy from him.

[Dryvus]

I've never heard of Subterranean Press before, and can't tell from their website exactly what they do, so I'll ask:

What is different about books they publish? There's art inserted throughout?

[Stego]

It would appear that Kishkeking was one of the people on the call list and he reacted by immediately selling off a number of stockpiled copies of the Meisha Merlin AGoT a week before the announcement, making $1500 on the last one.

I doubt George has his number. I think he was liquidating before the TV show.

If this was me or Lodey or Dajamieson or any of the collectors that everyone is aware that George personally knows, then I would think it suspicious. But I currently run the BWB and don't know Kishtheking from Adam.

["Blackfyre"]

Surprisingly, I totally agree with Stego and his comments in this thread. George is trying to turn a bad situation into a "good" situation for everyone involved. Once again, George is taking his fans into consideration and trying to do right by them.

Although my book collection is not nearly as large as Stego's, Lodey's, or Daj's I still like to think my collection of the series overall is one of the largest. I was not contacted, but I don't expect to be. Stego, Lodey, and Daj speak for the BwB and the collectors and I am confident they have our best interests in mind.

I would like to add that this whole thing has been a disaster. MM made a mess and Subpress was given the mess and told to fix it, so to speak. I personally thought the transition would of been a lot smoother from MM to Subpress, but it is what it is. We have to remember that Bill at Subpress is in the business to make money. This is his job and we can't fault him for it. (Even when he sells the rights to your novels because you didn't place the order right away...)

[Sword of the Morning]

For the sake of consistency, I do think it is important that Subterranean Press go back and re-do Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings.

In fact, I actually think that this was something asked of Bill in the past and at the time he was unsure whether it was going to be done or not although he was hopeful in the future it could be to make the set uniform.

That still doesn't change the fact in my opinion that true uniformity can only be achieved by having a matching slipcase on Storm of Swords as well.

An isolated MM Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings will take a hit on value but that's never bothered me too much because if I sell it will be COMPLETE sets that will be put up anyway and ones which include the Meisha versions will definitely go for more than those without.

This essentially only hurts those who own isolated and broken Meishas of GoT and CoK. If I were them, I would begin to sell IMMEDIATELY before news begins to spread.

As for kishkeking, I think he just got lucky. Bill's last post would seem to put him well beyond reproach as far as timing goes. Sometimes, things work out for you and sometimes they don't.

Geddon, my advice would be to hold on to your set. As a fellow collector and completist, I know how much this is bothering you and in the heat of the moment, emotions run high. But per my argument in this post and the previous one, I really do believe that as long as they are incorporated as part of a true FULL set, the value of the Merlin editions will be protected. The minute you BREAK UP THE SET is when the value will truly plummet. So I urge you again to strongly reconsider breaking up your set and selling them.

On a somewhat related note, some of you may know that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series also enjoy a limited edition version. Starting with The Shadow Rising, both numbered and lettered leatherbound versions were made available and they usually sold out very quickly. Sadly, the first 3 books never saw a leatherbound limited edition release.

Well, I have it on very good authority (from Brandon Sanderson who got it from Tom Doherty) that they plan on not only doing those first 3 books as leatherbound limiteds BUT also plan on reissuing the ENTIRE series over again in leatherbound.

Again, what this would do to the value of the existing leatherbounds is anyone's guess but as someone who worked long and hard to collect ALL of them, I must say the news does bother me a little. And note that this plan unless further details are released is simply to REISSUE the leatherbounds . . . so they are nowhere near "new books" like the ones Subterranean Press plan to do for Game and Clash.

I use this example Geddon because I know you collect Jordan's leatherbounds too and also to show that this type of thing happens with other publishers as well.

Dennis

[Geddon]

Screw it, it's not worth arguing about it.

I'm selling a matching set of books 2 through 4, please see my for sale thread for details.

[Sword of the Morning]

Hi Geddon,

I was not aware that you did not have A Game of Thrones limited? If not, I must admit to being slightly confused since this newest development means you can buy the SP version of book 1 and 2 and now achieve a matching set.

From my analysis of Ebay sales and value, at this point at least, it is Game of Thrones that brings the prices up.

A set WITHOUT it usually goes for either original MSRP or maybe 10 to 20 percent higher.

Again, my advice to maximize value is to sit on your collection, get the Subterranean version of Dance and Game of Thrones at least and THEN if you wish sell it on Ebay. The advantage is by the time you do this, HBO will likely already be through the second season and likely Emmys and publicity will be very high.

A "complete" set of limiteds SHOULD go sky high at that point.

I simply see no reason for you to try to liquidate now when you don't even have a Meisha Game of Thrones to begin with.

Makes no sense to me.

Take care and either way, good luck with your decision.

Dennis

[Geddon]

I do have a numbered copy of aGoT, it doesn't match the other books so I plan to sell that separately.

As you've astutely pointed out the value of that book has just dropped through the floor thanks to GRRMs decision to shaft me and all the other MM owners without complete sets (which means most of us, including a few that he personally sold copies to for over a grand).

Sure, I could just suck up the loss and keep throwing more money at the series but after just being reamed I'm not eager to drop trousers and grab ankles ready for another go. Frankly I'll be damned if GRRM makes another penny from me for any edition of any book, fuck him.

Let somebody else build try to build a set from my old one, and good riddance.

[TannerSack]

Let me start by saying this(before I get out my need to bitch)

Sub Press makes some of the best limited edition books on the market and I would certainly pick up AGOT's and ACOK's to complete the set.

However, as collectors we don't just buy the limited ed's for extravagant amounts because they are pretty to look at, we buy them because they have value and if need be we can get are money back and maybe then some.

Sub Press is very untrustworthy when it comes to making an investment in what you like. Here is some great examples.

He will advertise a book as a specific limited/numbered print run....

Caitlen Kiernan's new short story collection was listed as a limited of 300 copies, I said "hell yeah" that's cool and a good investment, so I bought one right away, Oh, wait a sec!! within a day he increases the print run to 600. Well that's pretty fucking huge as far as false advertising.

Joe Hill's "Heart Shaped Box" I bought that when it came out as a limited of 300copies, great book, awesome collectable. Oh but he decides to do a second printing???

That's bullshit, your not supposed to get away with doing that when you tell your collectors this is what we are producing and that's it.

China Mieville's "Perdido Street Station. Jumped aboard on that as soon as I saw it listed. Again, after the book sells out quickly he increases the print run the same day.

So bottom line is these books are great but I wouldn't trust this guy's word for a second.

Also, I've met G.R.R.M. many times and he really seems to me to be a very kind and cool person. He's a collector also and great to his fans and probably so well set for life money is not even an issue in this case.

[Geddon]

Also, I've met G.R.R.M. many times and he really seems to me to be a very kind and cool person. He's a collector also and great to his fans and probably so well set for life money is not even an issue in this case.

Apparently being well off blinds you to how your actions affect the less fortunate, because what he has done is basically the same as saying, "Hey guys, you know those four books of mine you bought at great expense, well I've just made a deal that massively lowers the value of the first two. Also, as an added bonus now if you want to buy the full set you'll have to buy two extra books at great cost. Imagine that, you thought you were more than half way through collecting the full series but really you're just at the beginning. But I'm doing it for the fans and collectors though, so that's okay."

Well, I was a fan and collector and it's not okay, not by a long shot.

[Justinian]

George is trying to turn a bad situation into a "good" situation for everyone involved. Once again, George is taking his fans into consideration and trying to do right by them.

No, at best you can say he is trying to turn a bad situation for a lot people and a very good situation for a few people (like me) into a good situation for a lot of people and a bad situation for a few people (like me). I'm a person. Perhaps the greater good and all that means this is, overall, a good thing. But don't pretend that it is to my benefit. I've got one of the few unbroken lettered sets, and this is not to my benefit at all. We can argue about whether it is neutral or negative, and how negative if so, but don't pretend that this is good for "everyone".

Like I said, I expect to end up with an unbroken set including both the Subterranean Press and Meisha Merlin copies of my letters. But at best it's making me shell out $700 for books I already own and don't want to re-buy. At worst it's making me shell out $700 for books I already own and don't want to re-buy while seriously undercutting the value of the books I already own. So don't act like this is somehow a favor to me. It's not.

[Justinian]

It does seem as though none of the people GRRM asked about this actually had unbroken lettered sets, which sort of negates any benefit to asking people. If you only ask the people who stand to benefit from something and don't ask any of the people who stand to lose out, well gee, it's not exactly a surprise when they come back with "yeah that would be cool, go for it!".

[Padraig]

It does seem as though none of the people GRRM asked about this actually had unbroken lettered sets, which sort of negates any benefit to asking people.

I don't think you should use the people who have posted on this thread as the basis for that statement. I think at least one of the people Stego mentioned has a full set.

[Bronn Stone]

Sub Press is very untrustworthy when it comes to making an investment in what you like. Here is some great examples.

He will advertise a book as a specific limited/numbered print run....

Caitlen Kiernan's new short story collection was listed as a limited of 300 copies, I said "hell yeah" that's cool and a good investment, so I bought one right away, Oh, wait a sec!! within a day he increases the print run to 600. Well that's pretty fucking huge as far as false advertising.

China Mieville's "Perdido Street Station. Jumped aboard on that as soon as I saw it listed. Again, after the book sells out quickly he increases the print run the same day.

If you bought either of those and tried to cancel your order after the rapid increase in print run and Bill refused, you have a case. If not, you do not.

[TannerSack]

If you bought either of those and tried to cancel your order after the rapid increase in print run and Bill refused, you have a case. If not, you do not.

I'm sorry?? Did I suggest this was a court of law.

I'm simply stating if you tell someone the print run and it encourages sales(which it does) you can't turn around and change your mind for your own benefit and think it's okay. Can not a blind doink see that. Perhaps not.

[Sword of the Morning]

No, no, no. It's not so cut and dried.

Changing the game midstream like this is not a good thing.

The principle is wrong and that is not debatable.

Else why doesn't Bill just reprint every book he sells? Cause he knows that if he did that, it would destroy the collectability of any book he sells and by extension his business not soon after.

He does what he does because he knows he can get away with it but that doesn't make the practice correct or good.

Dennis

[Bronn Stone]

No, no, no. It's not so cut and dried.

Changing the game midstream like this is not a good thing.

The principle is wrong and that is not debatable.

Else why doesn't Bill just reprint every book he sells? Cause he knows that if he did that, it would destroy the collectability of any book he sells and by extension his business not soon after.

He does what he does because he knows he can get away with it but that doesn't make the practice correct or good.

Dennis

It IS that cut and dried when you have time to back out of the deal BEFORE it has been shipped. Down the road, different story.

[TannerSack]

No, no, no. It's not so cut and dried.

Changing the game midstream like this is not a good thing.

The principle is wrong and that is not debatable.

Else why doesn't Bill just reprint every book he sells? Cause he knows that if he did that, it would destroy the collectability of any book he sells and by extension his business not soon after.

He does what he does because he knows he can get away with it but that doesn't make the practice correct or good.

Dennis

Amen to that,

It is nothing but blatant self interest involved in these productions. I've been thinking his practices are crooked for years and all anyone on this board does is defend bullshit, it's pathetic and nothing but ignorant.