Subterranean to release signed limiteds of Game and Clash!

[Geddon]

It does seem as though none of the people GRRM asked about this actually had unbroken lettered sets, which sort of negates any benefit to asking people. If you only ask the people who stand to benefit from something and don't ask any of the people who stand to lose out, well gee, it's not exactly a surprise when they come back with "yeah that would be cool, go for it!".

He shouldn't have had to ask opinions, it should have been self-evident that it was a terrible thing to do to anybody who owned the MM editions.

In effect he has abandoned one limited edition set of the series, leaving it incomplete, to start another. That would have been bad form even had it been done when Sub Press first came onboard but it could have been mitigated somewhat by offering owners of the MM editions a discount on books 1 and 2 from Sub Press.

Instead of doing that he waited until two books later to abandon the first limiteds. During the intervening period some people spent serious amounts of time, effort and money tracking down and acquiring MM editions so they could attempt to build a full set. Effort and expense that it now turns out was unnecessary and which is now actually being punished.

If he'd set out to screw over collectors of these books he could hardly have done a more complete job. If this is what happens when he is trying to do right I shudder to think what he'd do were he feeling malicious.

[Justinian]

As somone a bit nonplussed by the re-publishing of the ASoIaF books, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with changing your plans for how many books in a print run BEFORE actually printing the books, as long as anyone who wishes to can cancel with no penalty or anything. That seems like not a big deal and perfectly acceptable if something you hope doesn't happen constantly. This is a different case, where we're going back and publishing another edition of the first two books in the series. That strikes me as a significant difference from simply changing plans before they get underway.

[Sword of the Morning]

I don't think you should use the people who have posted on this thread as the basis for that statement. I think at least one of the people Stego mentioned has a full set.

Padraig, the bottom line is that a decision that is this important and impacts that many people should not have been made by consulting only members of the Brotherhood without Banners or Elio. I mean, come on, that's just assinine. Yes, talk to the people who think you are a GOD!!! That'll be the best way to get a fair, impartial opinion. Half the people on this board would take a running dive off a 100 foot cliff if that's what Martin wants them to do and we all know it.

There's 52 people who own lettered books. How many unbroken? I've been around for 10 years, bro, I'm sure Bill has my email. I know I get his newsletters every week without fail. Why wasn't I consulted in a simple email? A poll on this forum or the Subterranean website could have been done.

What's the big fucking hurry? Is this going to be up for preorder next month when Dance with Dragons hasn't even been finished yet?

Bottom line, it doesn't matter because EVERYONE in this is going to make money from George Martin to Bill Schafer. Now the fact that it somewhat screws a few people who already have unbroken sets doesn't really matter but please let's stop congratulating each other on how all of this is because George loves his fans. That smacks of intellectual dishonesty which this board supposedly takes pride in not having much of.

There's money to be made, the decision was made and then a few phone calls were made to people who are lifelong fans and friends to get the seal of approval from the "masses."

I'm glad you think 2 or 3 "thumbs up" and MAYBE one person (you're not sure yourself) who has an unbroken set is enough to represent the interests of the 552 people who own these books.

It would have been a lot less hypocritical and self-serving to just make the announcement and say this the way it's going to be instead of adding that little "fans and collectors were consulted as well."

That is a big steaming load of B.S. ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about collecting would have said this is a controversial move at best and a disaster with plenty of backlash at worst. But apparently not booksellers and people who have buddied up with George and opened a few beers with him. What a surprise . . .

Dennis

[Sword of the Morning]

Amen to that,

It is nothing but blatant self interest involved in these productions. I've been thinking his practices are crooked for years and all anyone on this board does is defend bullshit, it's pathetic and nothing but ignorant.

Trust me bro, I've been on these forums and following George's brilliant licensing maneuvers for a decade.

If I had a nickel for every license that went belly-up and screwed fans of Song of Ice and Fire over and over again...

The Calendar fiasco by Dabel brothers?

How about the role-playing game company that went belly up?

The Valyrian Steel damascus sword that was only 9 months late?

The Ruby Ford miniature that was broken over and over and the company finally went bankrupt?

How about those awesome resin busts by Valyrian Resin? Yep, bankrupt too.

Meisha obviously.

That's just off the top of my head!

Basically, over the past few years, Martin has shown that he is willing to license to just about anybody who can show him the money and give him a good song and dance number.

The man is a genius when it comes to writing and I have no doubt he cares about his fans but he is in no way a good businessman or a rocket scientist and it's no use pretending otherwise.

Thank God Bill Schafer from Subterranean Press is able at least to hold up his end of the bargain and not be a complete incompetent. Then again, we're criticizing him for screwing us over but from where I stand 10 years later I'd rather be screwed and still have the product than be screwed by the company going belly up.

Dennis

[Sword of the Morning]

He shouldn't have had to ask opinions, it should have been self-evident that it was a terrible thing to do to anybody who owned the MM editions.

In effect he has abandoned one limited edition set of the series, leaving it incomplete, to start another. That would have been bad form even had it been done when Sub Press first came onboard but it could have been mitigated somewhat by offering owners of the MM editions a discount on books 1 and 2 from Sub Press.

Instead of doing that he waited until two books later to abandon the first limiteds. During the intervening period some people spent serious amounts of time, effort and money tracking down and acquiring MM editions so they could attempt to build a full set. Effort and expense that it now turns out was unnecessary and which is now actually being punished.

If he'd set out to screw over collectors of these books he could hardly have done a more complete job. If this is what happens when he is trying to do right I shudder to think what he'd do were he feeling malicious.

Geddon, from one collector to another we both know how this works. Anyone with a MODICUM of understanding about how collecting in general works would know this is not good.

George obviously has NO idea how this works, this was an idiotic decision on his part.

Bill knows obviously but it is a good business decision for him and he can at least rationalize it because he will be helping more people than he is hurting.

In any case, this may be a topic for your other sales thread but I respectfully disagree with your decision to sell Game of Thrones separately.

You will make A LOT MORE MONEY selling it as a set with rights to future books. Right now you are selling basically TWO broken sets which will set back the value substantially. You NEED to use Game of Thrones to bring up the value of the other 3 books.

Yes, I KNOW, the numbers don't match but YOU HAVE THE FIRST BOOK!! That is still an "unbroken" set to 90 percent of the people out there.

Trust me, put the books together and you will make a lot more money than doing it your way right now.

I don't care at all that you are selling now. I still think you will do better in the future if you stick with your guns a little longer but if you are going to sell, I think you will make more money selling together instead of breaking them up.

Dennis

[Justinian]

I think we're all pretty clear on the situation at this point. You can't argue with any seriousness that this is good for people who already have unbroken sets. The best you can do is argue that it isn't that bad for them and is good for a lot more people who don't have unbroken sets. I get that. And, like I said, as long as I end up with both lettered editions of the forthcoming books I'll still have the rarest set available.

But just don't tell me this is something I should be happy about, best case I'm out $700 I don't want to spend.

Subterranean Press is awesome and I'll keep buying their books. As long as those of us with sets have first dibs on the matching numbers and letters of the first two books. If that doesn't happen then I will, in the immortal words of Ingve Malmsteen, unleash the (expletive deleted) fury.

[Justinian]

But I will never stop wanting a new slipcase for Storm! NEVER FORGET.

[Ran]

I assume my name is mentioned for rhetorical purposes, but just to be exceptionally clear so that the rumor mill doesn't mistake anything: I was not asked about it, did not know of it until it was announced, nor would I ever expect to be consulted on such a thing. The only limited ASoIaF volume Linda and I have bought is A Feast for Crows, because of Canty.

Not that my opinion was solicited, but the main thing I thought of when I learned that there'd be new art is, "Cool, if they get Komark or Whelan for one of these, we're getting it." I'm not really a collector-type, so I just think of these in terms of gorgeous books.

[dajamieson]

Just to clarify - I wasn't asked about this either.

Personally, I think it's a bad decision.

[Justinian]

Yes, my impression is that the people who were consulted are generally the people most likely to encourage GRRM to go ahead with this. Since they are likely the people he actually knows rather than people who can look at it from a more objective position.

[Sword of the Morning]

I assume my name is mentioned for rhetorical purposes, but just to be exceptionally clear so that the rumor mill doesn't mistake anything: I was not asked about it, did not know of it until it was announced, nor would I ever expect to be consulted on such a thing. The only limited ASoIaF volume Linda and I have bought is A Feast for Crows, because of Canty.

Not that my opinion was solicited, but the main thing I thought of when I learned that there'd be new art is, "Cool, if they get Komark or Whelan for one of these, we're getting it." I'm not really a collector-type, so I just think of these in terms of gorgeous books.

Sorry Ran, I mentioned your name to make a point. I didn't mean to imply you were asked. Thanks for clarifying.

Dennis

[Guest Mathis Aamodt]

Hi everyone,

Im an owner of an unbroken limited edition and a broken lettered edition (missing AGOT).

I did not like this decision, there is a reason the are named limited/lettered.

However since Im still collecting, I will probably have to buy them.

[OverHill]

I'm the owner of a full, but broken set. AGOT doesn't match, but GRRM was kind enough to sell it to me for $1200.

I'm also very negative to this decision. At least, why couldn't this wait until the SERIES is actually FINISHED ???? Coun't me out !! I will hang on to my copies, but wouldn't be surprised if we get even more limited in the future. I will not write more as I have been known to be negative to GRRM before on other issues.

[Marwyn the Mage]

Hi everyone,

Im an owner of an unbroken limited edition and a broken lettered edition (missing AGOT).

I did not like this decision, there is a reason the are named limited/lettered.

However since Im still collecting, I will probably have to buy them.

I tried to link my westeros account to my facebook account yesterday, seems it didnt work. Oh well...

[Padraig]

Sword, I was never arguing about the rights and wrongs of this decision. I'll leave that to the experts. I was just responding to a conclusion another poster leapt to. Although, I now see that I made my own mistake about who may have been asked.

Still, while I understand that you are very annoyed, I don't see any point in saying only members of the BwB were consulted. How can you know that is true?

Half the people on this board would take a running dive off a 100 foot cliff if that's what Martin wants them to do and we all know it.

Ok. Maybe I just don't like mud-slinging.

Now the fact that it somewhat screws a few people who already have unbroken sets doesn't really matter but please let's stop congratulating each other on how all of this is because George loves his fans.

As Justinian said..."The best you can do is argue that it isn't that bad for them and is good for a lot more people who don't have unbroken sets".

[Geddon]

As Justinian said..."The best you can do is argue that it isn't that bad for them and is good for a lot more people who don't have unbroken sets".

If we are arguing on a utility basis then the best thing for the greatest number of people would be to send out copies of any of the books to anybody who wants one, and allow them to write in whatever number or letter they wish. Then anyone who wants a full set can have one, even if one of their needed copies happens to be in somebody else's hands. All those that missed the boat on the Sub Press limiteds would get a chance to own the books too.

Excellent, let's do that. Sure it screws over everybody who bought any of the limiteds, and particularly those who own a complete matching set but, hey, on aggregate more people stand to win than lose so that's all right.

Wait though, perhaps there's a moral and ethical component here that should not be ignored. Maybe - and stick with me here as I head off into uncharted waters - maybe selling people an expensive item on the understanding that it is a limited edition places certain obligations on you as a licenser or producer. Obligations that it is not okay to abandon on the basis that doing so benefits more people than it harms. Maybe it's just plain wrong to renege on deals you have made, especially when doing so greatly disadvantages the other party?

[mormont]

Wait though, perhaps there's a moral and ethical component here that should not be ignored. Maybe - and stick with me here as I head off into uncharted waters - maybe selling people an expensive item on the understanding that it is a limited edition places certain obligations on you as a licenser or producer. Obligations that it is not okay to abandon on the basis that doing so benefits more people than it harms. Maybe it's just plain wrong to renege on deals you have made, especially when doing so greatly disadvantages the other party?

Maybe, but as a case study of ethical dilemmas goes, 'I spent $500 on a book in the expectation that it would appreciate to $1000 and now it's only worth $750 because of this decision*' is not really calculated to tug at the heartstrings.

*numbers chosen are completely arbitrary, the author reserves the right to take the piss out of anyone who nitpicks over them.

[SubPress]

Wait though, perhaps there's a moral and ethical component here that should not be ignored. Maybe - and stick with me here as I head off into uncharted waters - maybe selling people an expensive item on the understanding that it is a limited edition places certain obligations on you as a licenser or producer. Obligations that it is not okay to abandon on the basis that doing so benefits more people than it harms. Maybe it's just plain wrong to renege on deals you have made, especially when doing so greatly disadvantages the other party?

The contracts (yes, plural) I signed to take over the series did obligate me in certain ways, financially and otherwise, but did not specify that I was responsible for promises or claims made by Meisha Merlin. Are you saying I'm obligated by previous contracts to which I was not a party?

I'm also curious -- and not intending this to be provocative -- but where does everyone see the other limited editions of A Feast for Crows as fitting into this? They certainly preceded our edition, by a good bit.

Thanks,

Bill

SubPress

[dajamieson]

How about people who spent $1500* on a book they had no indication would ever be rereleased in a different format, making their purchases worth.....what exactly? I'm not sure reducing this to a criticism of profit margins on speculative purchases is exactly helpful.

My problem with the whole thing is it goes to the heart of what a limited edition is. It's limited - there's only ever going to be a certain number published. This is the contract between publisher and customer whenever something like this is printed. It would be one thing if SP had decided to restart the series as soon as they took over the license, but since they didn't do that the understanding was this was a continuation of the MM editions, with all the responsibilities that that entails. To backtrack on that is, IMO, a breach of trust - and I'm saying this as someone who'll buy the new editions anyway.

*number chosen is completely arbitary, the author reserves the right to ignore the opinion of someone who isn't really affected by this.:P

[dajamieson]

Bill, I'm a big fan of SP - you do great books. But I think this sets an unfortunate precedent. Should you be bound by MM contracts? No, you shouldn't. So restart the series.

But you didn't, you continued from where MM left off. Having done that, I think there's an important understanding there that it's a continuation of the same limited edition run.