OldLordPlumm Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 In other news Bra boy faces courtThe article would sound so much better if Russell Crowe were narrating it. Yup neglected children Jai and Kobi really grew up and used their celebrity, fame and fortune (from fuck knows what) and put their brother on the straight and narrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Sorry to nitpick dude, but it said training not retraining as if our way is better, it's just different. It's adding a skill not replacing one. Taken I would like to know exactly what that entails and while I'm sure the researcher has those ideas it just couldn't fit into the article. Mate if the below is the case then I would call that a free ride considering other domestic uni applicants are turned away. "Couldn't fit into the article" sounds like a cop-out to me. If this author wants her recommendations to be taken seriously, then she needs to present much more well-reasoned arguments as to why the evidence points to a lack of "cultural skills" and what precisely she means by cultural training (sorry about the incorrect word-use in the last post). And it's interesting that she believes cultural training to be a solution to the problem - if she thinks international students are disadvantaged by their lack of "cultural skills", why isn't she suggesting changes to university courses to make them more culturally neutral? Why should it be necessary to have these (extremely vague) "skills" to succeed in a university course of study?A former part-time adjunct lecturer in business at a large Sydney university who didn't wish to be named told the HES the lack of English skills of many of his international students appeared to make a mockery of the university's entry criteria based on test scores.I have never denied that many international students are not entirely up to scratch when it comes to their English skills. But the fact that these international students are, on average, receiving lower marks than domestic students shows that this lower language ability is being correctly reflected in grades. This isn't a free ride at all - they are getting lower grades and paying much higher fees (which support many Australian jobs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldLordPlumm Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 "Couldn't fit into the article" sounds like a cop-out to me. If this author wants her recommendations to be taken seriously, then she needs to present much more well-reasoned arguments as to why the evidence points to a lack of "cultural skills" and what precisely she means by cultural training (sorry about the incorrect word-use in the last post). And it's interesting that she believes cultural training to be a solution to the problem - if she thinks international students are disadvantaged by their lack of "cultural skills", why isn't she suggesting changes to university courses to make them more culturally neutral? Why should it be necessary to have these (extremely vague) "skills" to succeed in a university course of study?I have never denied that many international students are not entirely up to scratch when it comes to their English skills. But the fact that these international students are, on average, receiving lower marks than domestic students shows that this lower language ability is being correctly reflected in grades. This isn't a free ride at all - they are getting lower grades and paying much higher fees (which support many Australian jobs).The journo picks what goes into the article not the researcher, no way is all her reasoned arguments going to fit into that. It's a press release more than anything. I don't know if you can or should change an Australian based university course to be more culturally neutral, but I guess it would depend on as you point out what area of cultural skills is lacking. Except if they're using the curve to hide it. I don't think people who come out pointing out these things are denying the economic impact of overseas students. Here's another today Pass marks can be degradingIt's pretty sad I feel sorry for the ones mentioned, but if research such as this means more accessible and better preparation in their home countries than I welcome it. Maybe this is a hint at cultural problems I don't know."I can tell you I was not soft-marked in Japan," Sean says. "Law at Flinders was tough - you have to have quite a high entry score - then I would come to my business subjects and find them incredibly easy. I had to do two or three times as much work in law."Problems included international students attending tutorials and saying nothing, and he found group work hard, "working with students who would be better off doing other things".As Judy Nagy from Deakin University told The Australian last year, even in a hard-data discipline such as accounting, cultural values shape understanding.Foreign students, especially from cultures that emphasise deference to academic authority, also struggle to understand the way they are expected to learn. As Deakin's Tony Burch put it in a 2008 paper, "many are ill-prepared for the student-centred learning strategies . . . that emphasise inquiry, debate and analysis. Many prefer to memorise and reproduce material from lecture notes."It is not an approach that makes for lively classroom discussion, and it upsets the locals. Yesterday one Sydney-based academic economist described to The Australian the discomfort of senior public servants studying to upgrade their qualifications who share seminars with internationals unable to contribute ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hmmm well what to say, first I guess Ski your not in chat so I cannot catch you!:(OLP if the feds and local police think the morans are a "crime family" rather than a bunch of dumb criminals all from the same family then you need some serious overhauling. Sorry dude organised crime they are not!The debate about the international students is interesting. Yes of course there are problems in the system there are in pretty much all systems so you generally go with a best fit policy.When I was at uni there were a large number of international students studying and never had a problem. I would in fact have welcomed a few in Geology but there were none. heck even in physics we didn't have any though the chem classes had a few.I am actually wondering at this point if the uni had deliberately seperated us.I am also wondering if this would not actually be a better method than the current one, to actually add to the campus a section for dealing solely with international students. I doubt that it would be though it would certainly shut up the bellyaching by some. I think the result of such a policy would be that the greater income from the international section would end up with more support being put into it to the detriment of local students?Knowing people and having seen the antics of politictians I think we would be shafting our own kids if we did this.Also there is the simple fact that having international students gives our local kids the chance to experience meeting people from different cultures etc.And of course the influx of funds has meant that despite cuts to tertiary education the universities have managed to maintain a high quality of education and equipment.Now I am not saying we give them a free pass or anything but I am saying that we need to help them adjust somewhat to our teaching methods and also supply access to interpreters to avoid misunderstandings in re to the work.This may have been what was meant by "cultural" training. The thing is that without them we would have far fewer tertiary level students simply because there would not be the funds.Now granted not everyone is going to be able to go to uni, lets be honest here at least half the population would have difficulty doing even the "easy" courses. Then there are others who while smart enough are just not of the right temperament.But I do believe that anyone able to qualify should be able to go to uni and do any course they have qualified for without regard for "quota's" like those set by the Australian Medical association.hey I am an old hippie/aussiebattler so I am a bit of a socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldLordPlumm Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 GS mate, All I know about the Morans and like shitbags is what I read about or watch on educational programs like underbelly.We don't get to deal in stuff like that, we get this Society of men who love young boys smashed. We do need overhauling though all of us think that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski the Swift Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I had a dream and griff told us he had been to antartica to work for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 @OLP: My experience in education is that critical thinking and preparedness to engage in critical debate and group discussion are not skills inherent in any culture - they are cognitive skills acquired over time and tend to vary greatly from student to student, whether they are international or domestic students. In other words, there is far more "within-culture" variation than there is "between-culture" variation when it comes to these types of skills. Students I have taught range from domestic students who are unwilling to participate in class discussions or work in a team but excel in accounting to international students who perform well in class and group assignments but then crack under pressure in finance exams. If the author disagrees with these assertions and believes that certain cognitive techniques are lacking in international students as a group or in a particular culture, then she needs to actually test that hypothesis - not just find a gap in the performances of domestic and international students and then make unsubstantiated claims that they are due to cultural (rather than solely language) barriers. The thing is OLP, I agree with many of the ideas you have been alluding to in your posts and concur that many of these issues need to be addressed by Australian tertiary institutions (e.g. greater support to international students struggling with English). But poorly-researched, headline-grabbing studies, which make sweeping (and borderline inflammatory) statements regarding "free riders" and a deficiency in "cultural skills" only serve to confuse the issue and misinform the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldLordPlumm Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ok Pax, I'm not trying to have the last word but I guess I just fail to see what's wrong with her current research methodology. Again the term free ride is a sensationalistic headline by the journalist. I also don't think the researcher herself is being inflammatory. In regard to participation during tutorials I'm sorry dude but while other international students might contribute ideas, in my personal experience (and by the sounds of it people interviewed) I find Asian internationals don't have alot to say (could depend on the unit). It's not demonising them by pointing that out, just acknowleding it's hard for them to adapt to a socratic style of learning when they've largely been drilled in wrote learning. That and also, lets face it, some Asian students are just a little bit more insular due to not having outgoing or loud personalities. All of that would make it hard for them particularly as a first year. But you have not seen that at all? Nobody wants to lose Asian internatinals from our universities, so should we address this problem?Did you watch an episode of Ice Road Truckers Ski?Raiders vs Broncos tonight. Not watching it and don't know who to pick either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Firstly, the term "free-ride" was used by the author herself, not the journalist:"The research provides evidence that international non-English-speaking background students effectively free ride on each other, ending up with higher marks than they would have otherwise obtained," she says.Secondly, I have highlighted the primary flaws in the author's research design in earlier posts: higher marks awarded to international students in classes with a greater proportion of international students are likely attributed to self-selection issues (international students tend to choose units with less emphasis on English and hence perform better). The author's rash conclusion as to "free-riding" is therefore both unsubstantiated and, in my view, deliberately inflammatory with the intention of grabbing a headline (which sadly she has achieved). The second obvious flaw is drawing the conclusion that international students are inhibited by a lack of "cultural skills" without providing any apparent evidence that this is the case.Thirdly, (and I don't mean to offend here) I can't even begin to explain how much I disagree with your generalisations as to the study habits and personalties of international students and believe that you are grossly understating the magnitude of the language barrier. Is it really surprising that "Asian internationals don't have a lot to say" when they are grappling with a foreign language for the first time? I have taught some 500 students in accounting and finance over the past three years (in groups of around 15-20) and the most frequent compliment I have received from international students is that I take the time to explain things in clear, plain-english terms that they can understand easily. As to your points regarding a lack of participation, critical-thinking and rote-learning, I would argue that these flaws are not at all limited to international students. For every domestic student I teach that critically engages with the course material and contributes actively in class, there are two or three domestic students who say little or nothing in class and are happy just to rote-learn the questions I teach on the board. If universities are going to address the issues of non-participation, lack of critical thinking etc. (and they should as you point out), then they should do so across the board, not just in the sphere of international students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gryphon strike Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 GS mate, All I know about the Morans and like shitbags is what I read about or watch on educational programs like underbelly.We don't get to deal in stuff like that, we get this Society of men who love young boys smashed. We do need overhauling though all of us think that!That was GOOD stuff mate I literally applauded when i heard about it :)Regular overhauls should be a part of the system but hey they also cost money thus the gov does not like that.got dinner at a restaurant and then a nice long shower with the GF tonight so I guess that is a good start to the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Winged Shadow Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Just got home from the Graduation Ceremony (which was yesterday afternoon). Feels so awesome to finally get that damn piece of paper that I worked like an ass for four damn years. :laugh:The graduation party was even more awesome. Though I don't feel too awesome at the moment :P . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Just got home from the Graduation Ceremony (which was yesterday afternoon). Feels so awesome to finally get that damn piece of paper that I worked like an ass for four damn years. :laugh:Congratulations! What letters did you get?The graduation party was even more awesome. Though I don't feel too awesome at the moment. :PSuffer in ya jocks, n00b. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Winged Shadow Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Congratulations! What letters did you get?Thanks bud! What do you mean by Letters? :dunno: Suffer in ya jocks, n00b. ;)Well, other than the dehydration, its mainly my stomach. Anything I eat won't stay down! :uhoh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks bud! What do you mean by Letters? :dunno: What degree/qualification... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Winged Shadow Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 What degree/qualification...Oh, right! Bachelor of Civil Engineering with Honours. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormborne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Oh, right! Bachelor of Civil Engineering with Honours. ^_^smarty pants :P(congrats though love! :grouphug: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski the Swift Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Now all you need is a job right? ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brook Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemrion Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Congratulations!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Congrats TWS, soon you'll be ordering Ski around :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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