Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)

[Poobah]

Bast says early in NOTW something to the effect of "all the women in your stories are beautiful" and comments that Denna has a crooked nose.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kvothe says, at some point, all good stories must have some lies.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

More than that, Pat himself has made comments about how Kvothe's a storyteller, not a historian. I don't remember whether or not he explicitly said Kvothe's unreliable, but that was absolutely the impression I got from his discussion.

[Slick Mongoose]

He's an unreliable narrator, at least to some extent. As are, I think, many of the people within the story who tell stories - Skarpi states outright that his Lanre story is mostly true.

I'm not sure if Kvothe is embellishing, as such, or not - He might be doing the opposite. He takes great delight in making the myths surrounding him less than they seem, which may be linked to his general malaise.

[The faceless others]

It just hit me, was all of Kvothe's lovers in TMF all older than him?

[john]

Woohoo, what a thread. Almost as long as the book and just as fascinating. Hurrah for noobs, great work everybody.

I did come away from the book thinking Netalia Lackless was Kvothe's mum and that Bredon was Denna's patron but that was mostly hunchwork. But i didn't really notice any of the clues (apart from Bredon's snarling-wolfshead cane, only baddies have those). Must be the power of my sleeping mind.

Just a few of things to add. First, I noticed Caudicus said he'd recently wintered with the Jakis family (don't think this has been mentioned yet). That means its pretty likely the plot against the Maer and the plot to move the Jakis line closer to the throne are the same.

Also,

Could this be a hint at the difference between naming and shaping? Naming involves the spoken word whereas shaping involves the written, perhaps altering a name and then recording it?

Yeah, i like this idea. The Chandrian seem more bothered about the recording of their names rather than the simple saying of them. And Denna's song is a record of the heroic deeds of Lanre. Maybe shaping involves writing things down and/or recording them for posterity. Therefore singing (the magical kind) would be a form of shaping. and I also think sympathy is a lesser form of naming.

I half expected Kvothe to trip the granny medic he met after saving those girls, after all she was the only one that had gotten away till then :P.

Heh I thought the same. It's like the first book and the first section of the second are full of beautiful women just hanging round Kvothe in a strange fanfictiony way. Then after he gets his schooling from Felurian he just starts sleeping with all of them. Still, it's a good way to get past the problem of your main character losing his virginity. It beats Rand al'Thor's ice hut escapades.

Larne wanted the power to bring Lyra back to life, but till I heard of Iax, I didn't know who could give him some power. Iax, as the most powerful of shapers could change Larne's name, giving him power over names and creating what became Haliax in the process.

This is good too. I like the idea of Haliax meaning "made by Iax" or something. I'd wondered about it because PR is always so careful about his etymology. It also explains how Lanre would find such power as he sought. However he is supposed to be a master namer on his own account so would he go to another one for help?

Question for the group: Is Kvothe an unreliable narrator? Is he telling his story straight? Is he embellishing?

He could be. He definitely tells it as a distant first person narrator, only getting into his thoughts every so often. Like he tells us Auri wiped tears off his face but doesn't tell he was upset. And the whole Road to Levenshir passage was told without any indication of what he was thinking.

[Slick Mongoose]

However he is supposed to be a master namer on his own account so would he go to another one for help?

Was he? I thought Lanre was a great leader and fighter, not a magic user. According to Scarpi.

And the whole Road to Levenshir passage was told without any indication of what he was thinking.

Yeah, I really liked that.

Do we actually know whether Kvothe has realised his mother was the runaway Lockless? I know this has been discussed before. Is it possible that he knows, but Kvothe the narrator is holding it back for a more dramatic reveal?

[john]

Was he? I thought Lanre was a great leader and fighter, not a magic user. According to Scarpi.

Hmm didn't he bind that one eyed guy with magic? But i guess that was after his transformation so you must be right.

[AverageGuy]

Do we actually know whether Kvothe has realised his mother was the runaway Lockless? I know this has been discussed before. Is it possible that he knows, but Kvothe the narrator is holding it back for a more dramatic reveal?

I suspect you're right with your latter possibility, present Kvothe knows and past Kvothe doesn't. And while holding back for drama may be part of his reasoning, I feel like chronology plays a part, too. He tells the story as past Kvothe learns it, very rarely playing omniscient narrator for future events.

[TeaSpoon]

I wish people would stop saying Auri is Faen. She's not. The grate she crawls through every time she meets Kvothe is iron and the underthing is chock-full of iron as well. No Fae would willingly go near it, much less find it wonderful. She's Fae-like, though, which I attribute to knowing the names of things and seeing beyond the mundane.

Elodin has that same quirkiness and sense of knowing the secrets of the world. I think it's necessary to become a true namer. See the interview, for example,

Elodin scowled at them. "What?" he demanded, his voice going hard around the edges. "You want me to take this song and dance more seriously? You want me to ask him questions only a namer can answer?"

The other masters stilled at this, looking uncomfortable and refusing to meet his eye. Hemme was the exception and glared openly.

"Fine," Elodin said, turning back to me. His eyes were dark, and his voice had a strange resonance to it. It wasn't loud, but when he spoke, it seemed to fill the entire hall. It left no space left over for any other sound. "Where does the moon go," Elodin asked grimly, "when it is no longer in our sky?"

We know the answer. It goes to Faerie, because Iax stole it.

To answer this question, you'd have to know about the Fae and about the Creation War and what sparked it. Few other people seem to have this knowledge or recognize it as more than children's stories. Denna pieced it together the history of Lanre from old folk tales, as did Arliden and Laurian. It took them years and they only discovered a small piece of the truth. The records in the archive, knowledge available to normal students, only go back a few thousand years and contain little to no references to the creation war or the chandrians.

Yet Elodin knows. Kvothe learned it while chasing the wind, as part of this education as a namer. The implication is that the ability to discern the true shape of the world (from so little as children's stories or through travel) is necessary to become a true namer.

So Auri does not have to be Fae to know not to go out during a moonless night or to know about the key, coin, and candle.

This is not to say that all namers know about the moon and the Fae. I doubt that Fela knows, for example. The masters might know. Lorren must know, being the keeper of knowledge. The Chronicler wasn't surprised when Kvothe's story went into faerie tale region, despite being the great debunker. All the great, powerful namers seem to know, though.

[EDIT] By the way, is anyone else impressed with Fenton? He's only one rank below Kvothe in Elxa Dal's advanced sympathy class. He made Re'lar about the same time Kvothe did, though I suspect he spent some time as an e'lir. He was invited to Elodin's naming class. I get the feeling that he's like Kvothe, only slightly less brilliant and more conventional.

[Slick Mongoose]

I suspect you're right with your latter possibility, present Kvothe knows and past Kvothe doesn't. And while holding back for drama may be part of his reasoning, I feel like chronology plays a part, too. He tells the story as past Kvothe learns it, very rarely playing omniscient narrator for future events.

Not quite what I meant. Yes, we can be fairly confident that present-day Kvothe knows. My point was, is it possible that past Kvothe knows too, and present-day Kvothe is saving it for later?

[thistlepong]

1. Where is The Waystone Inn located in the 4 corners? The currency used is standard Commonwealth and not Modegan or Vintish. Is that co-incidence or indicative of location?

3. Why did Chael, the maker of Caesura, cast it away?

4. Kvothe shatters the bottle of Elderberry in NOTW. How did he do that without sympathy? Why did Bast go looking for it in WMF and why did Kvothe fail to realise (or pretend not to realise) what happened to the Elderberry?

5. Who is Skarpi and how does he know Kvothe's name?

6. What dealings or knowledge that Master Lorren have with/of Arliden, Kvothe's father?

7. What made the Maer suspect there was something magical occuring in the Eld?

8. Can the Ctaeh lie by placing conditionals on its sentences (mayhaps.,maybe that sort of thing)? What physical form does it have?

9. What are the Ctaeth's motives?

10. What happened to the Sithe around the tree when Kvothe approached it?

11. Why does Denna go from accepting Kvothe's explanation in TNOW for the Mauthen slaughter by the Chandrian to ridiculing Kvothe in Wise Man's Fear?

12. Who/What inspired Nina's dream of the Chandrian?

13. If the Amyr are real, and a force for the good in the world, why didn't they provide any succour to Kvothe when they reached the troupe and found his entire family slaughtered?

14. If there are angelic forces in the world, one of whom is Tehlu, why do they permit Tehlu to be worshipped as a quasi-monotheistic Biblical God and generally allow people to misunderstand theology?

15. What was the mercenary who came to the bar seeking?

16. How does Master Elodin seem to know a great deal about Kvothe's comings and goings (see my previous post upthread?)

17. If Felurian existed before the Fae was created, and Felurian is of the Fae and immortal, how did the Fae people come to be?

18. What bad thing happened on Shep's farm?

19. Was the ever-burning lamp found amongst the Cealdish once upon a time the result of someone shaping fire to burn forever?

20. If more people died a the Blac of Drossen Tor then are currently living in the world, does that mean that entire races were wiped out, and the survivors all share some common habitation or location or geneaology?

21. What is beyond the 4 corners?

22. What is the other name that Master Elxa Dal knows apart from fire?

24. What caused Elodin's breakdown?

25. Was Teccam the founder of the first university, in whose ashes the current one was built?

26. Was Taborlin the Great around in the Creation War, or was he part of the Silver Age of Naming?

27. if the Duke of Gibea was a secret member of the Order Amyr why did the Order Amyr intervene and prosecute him?

28. the Chronicler's real name is Devan Lochees. Which Duke is he related to, and what makes him such an authoritative historian?

29. How is that Kvothe read Chronicler's book on his first visit to the archives, and yet Chronicler attended university so much later that Kvothe's name had already become curse and praise at the university?

30. Why is copper so effective against Namers/Chandrian/Fae?

31. Why does Auri speak frequently throughout meals in NOTW but refuse to speak during any meals during WMF? (I suspect this is a continuity error, one of several, in the books but if there's an explanation I would like to know).

32. Speaking of Auri, what does Auri mean? Sunny? Moon-Fae?

33. Why does Puppet have no recollection, an hour after his performance, that he was not playing Taborlin the Great but someone else?

34. Why is Puppet allowed to be in the Archives at all?

35. What does El'the mean?

36. What does Willem know of the Fae?

1. Averageguy's answer holds. It's Vintish currency.
   
2. Where's 2?
   
3. Given that the rest of the owners have recorded deaths, perhaps Chael simply laid down arms. Or never died.
   Finol, 30-some owners later, fell in the Battle of Drossen Tor.
   Related Question: Chaen means seven in Tema. Is there any relation to Chael beyond a swapped letter?
   
4. Name of elderberry? Glass?
   He also throws a bottle of elderberry at the mercenary.
   And the soldiers who beat Kote take a bottle of elderberry.
   They seem to have a lot of it and Bast has some trouble finding it. Why?
   
5. I'm hesitant to ascribe more meaning to that. I'm constantly reminded that Kvothe's weaving a tale. In particular, a tale transcribed by someone who will be meeting up with Skarpi. Furthermore, the series is called The Kingkiller Chronicle, implying that it's not the story of Kvothe the Arcane and possibly that it's about the acquisition of the tale.
   There is a narrator doing the third person, where Kvothe isn't in every scene, and not even part of it in some. Presumably there's the chronicle itself, as transcribed by Devon via Kvothe. Occasionally the chronicle lapses into second person, speaking directly to the reader, setting a scene or directing the gaze. And there are dozens of stories-within-the-story.
   (just read unJon's post - Yes)
   wild speculation: Skarpi is the ultimate narrator.
   
6. confirmed: He's a bard
   speculative: Arliden approached him about the song.
   wild: He's a traveling scriv.
   
7. confirmed: Vints are superstitious and he'd lost a lot of money and men.
   wild: He needed a lure to send Kvothe on a fool's errand.
   
8. That would fit the pattern of stories. In fact, the Cthaeh more or less avoids facts entirely.
   
9. All we know for sure is that it sows discord.
   
10. Bast says, in the same breath he reveals there were supposed to be Sithe there, "You don't understand them if you use the term 'good intentions.'" Honestly they seem more and more like a Faen counterpart to the Amyr.
    speculation: Both groups have an odd notion of good.
    wild: The Cthaeh was able to keep them busy via some machination.
    
11. She's creating a masterwork that'll be sung for a hundred years. She's scoured the world for pieces of the story; so she has some claim to the accuracy of her version - likely more than Kvothe can claim especially at that point. And he is kind of an obsessed knob.
    
12. Fascinating. Note that she's most afraid of the Amyr.
    
13. confirmed: (In Skarpi's story) None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril.
    speculative: The Amyr are not typical ruach. Selitos makes this clear (again, in Skarpi's story.) They are harriers of the Chandrian.
    wild: They killed the troupe.
    
14. Tehlu gets a lot of press. Again, given the mission statement of the Amyr he probably doesn't care. Perhaps the Menda story has some truth to it, though. He may have done a side project there to encourage folk to behave.
    
15. confirmed: Something to do with "Rhintae."
    speculative: Kvothe (suggested by Kvothe)
    wild: The last thing he says is probably, "Are you /(sought by)/ the Sithe? Are you Chandrian?"
    
16. I don't know. I don't think he's Manet, but I'm stubborn like that.
    There are things he doesn't know. Most surprising, that Kvothe is banned from the archives.
    
17. The shapers created her. Them.
    
18. Wait. What? This is now my second favorite nagging question.
    
19. Yes.
    Food for thought: There's enough Fae in the scenes with Felurian to strongly suggest that ciar means light or fire. The people of the Ceald are Cealdish; their language is Ciaru.
    
20. Short answer yes with an if. Long answer no with a but.
    All kidding aside it kind of depends on what you mean by races. At the end of the war there are seven magnificent cities remaining, and that's some time after the Blac. Thousands of ears ago the Lackless Holdings included all of Vintas, parts of Modeg, the eld, and most of the Small Kingdoms. The family splintered but shares a common ancestry.
    
21. The Tahlenwold, the great sand sea, the Lanett, Arueh, and the Fae?
    
22. That's not something you ask in polite company.
    There might be clues in his lectures.
    
23. Did he really break down?
    
24. Unknown Probably Belen's
    
25. Good question and great nomenclature. We're only given story fragments, so this is all speculative. Taborlin's an enemy of Scyphus after then Chandrian are cursed, so he's definitely present post Creation War.
    
26. The twenty thousand corpses thing was probably getting out. Kvothe assumes that "Ivare enim euge."/"For greater good" confirms he was associated with the Amyr. It's interesting given the focus on scrollwork/braiding in WMF that the words were located in some.
    
27. Duke Lochees? His will and research? He clearly mad ea name for himself with The mating habits of the Common Draccus.
    
28. speculative: Chronicler sought/is seeking the story of Kvothe. He visited after Kvothe "died" to tease it out.
    wild: Kvothe is lying about a lot of things.
    
29. No. Idea.
    
30. This is probably like offering a no-prize. How many times do they eat together in the books?
    
31. Star. Plenty of evidence but I'ma just lob one since that's how we roll here.
    
32. Not enough data.
    
33. Not enough data.
    
34. Good question.
    
35. confirmed: That it's real and he'd like to visit.
    speculative: The Ceald has a closer relationship with the Fae than the other kingdoms do - see ciar above.
    

And right on, TeaSpoon.

[Grant]

Hmm didn't he bind that one eyed guy with magic? But i guess that was after his transformation so you must be right.

From Skarpi:

"Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, lax, and Lyra. Lanre had no gift for names— his power lay in the strength of his arm. For him to attempt to bind Selitos by his name would be as fruitless as a boy attacking a soldier with a willow stick.

Nevertheless, Lanre's power lay on him like a great weight, like a vise of iron, and Selitos found himself unable to move or speak. He stood, still as stone and could do nothing but marvel: how had Lanre come by such power?"

[Misfortune]

About Bredon being that Chandrian who's sign is iron rusting theory, I don't really believe because wouldn't the rings displayed in Kvothe's room rust when he comes in? And what about the iron ring he gave him.

"In iron's thrall" doesn't actually recommend to me that he's the one that makes iron rust. That's probably the one that "knows only decay" or whatever. Remember that the Chandrian don't only make iron rust, they make new wood weak and presumably weaken the integrity of all materials. Stercus' special relationship with iron is probably not to make it rust/fall apart.

[Slick Mongoose]

[*]Name of elderberry? Glass?

Pretty sure he did sympathy there. The fist clenching motion, and I don't recall him speaking any names.

He did it almost subconciously. Which might be the difference. Or it might just be easier to break a bottle than set someone on fire.

[polishgenius]

Kvothe is most definitely an unreliable narrator, but I think there are times when it's difficult to tell apart Kvothe's narrative convenience from that of Rothfuss. For example is the confirmation (or refutal, you never know) about Netalia's mother because Kvothe wants to tell the story, or because Rothfuss decided it's more fun for the readers to work it out? Certainly, while aspects of the story are idealised by Kvothe, at others he's conveniently slow to make connections about things, especially for someone as clever as him. Like Elodin's teaching methods, a particularly jarring overlook from someone as versed in story as Kvothe.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Bast as Kvothe's son has been brought up before, but as was pointed out, he's introduced to Chronicler as "son of Remmen", so it's rather unlikely. Kvothe does have a lot of names but if Remmen is one of them there's no reason for him not to have mentioned it when he listed all his other names at the beginning.

I didn't know it has been brought up before, sorry. As for "Remmen", my theory is that if Bast is Kvothe's son, Kvothe isn't aware of this. Besides, even if Kvothe knew, he could have half a hundred reasons not to want to share this information with Chronicler and thus history.

Just finished, and much as I love the book, the Denna parts just drove me crazy. His constant whining about looking for her, etc, just dragged the book out. Almost made me put the book down a few times. What makes it even worse for me is that he is constantly interacting with women that are so much more interesting than her.

There is probably a reason for it but the constant "random chances" of her meeting up with him just got to be completely absurd. The fact he doesn't realize how utterly absurd it is that he finds her randomly in a town after crossing half the world just made me roll my eyes so hard I almost hurt myself.

I must be the only one here that thinks that Denna is the most interesting character in the book... As for the "random chances", i don't think Denna is even aware she is manipulated. The current Kvothe probably knows, but since the Kvothe of the past didn't make the connection he doesn't mention it in the story.

A dark thought I have always had is that Denna has something to do with the Chandrian. I remember one of the lines from that song mentioned in TNOTW that has a lyric going something like this:

See a girl pale as snow

Easy come easy go...

that pretty much sounds like her to me. Is she thousands of years old? Is she Lyra?

While we don't know much about Denna's past, the things we do know don't really point to such a direct connection with the Chandrian. It's almost certain that the Chandrian have taken an interest on her. Maybe they manipulate her in order to steer Kvothe to their purpose, maybe she is a descendant of Larne and Lyra, maybe she looks like Lyra, who knows ? We don't have allot to go by at this point. Whatever the reason is, she doesn't seem to be aware of it either.

teapot,

I though Denna had trouble with breathing prior to the Denner Resin incident. If I'm correct that means her current breathing difficulties are more likely the same thing she's had difficulty with for some time.

Denna had pneumonia when she was a baby, that's why she has bad lungs.

Ser Scot A Ellison

You could be right, I'd only just read the chapter i quoted earlier today so that part was still fresh in my mind when i read Cypselus' comment.

This is how Master Ash keeps her loyalty. Maybe there is even a stronger or better kind of drug he provides?

Maybe but i think he just beats her into submission like he is trying to train/break a animal ?

The reason she is loyal to Master Ash is twofold. She wants to succeed in her own way, gaining her patron without help from anyone else (including Kvothe) and she thinks she doesn't deserve better. She has been owned in the past (probably when she was a prostitute) and so she doesn't wan't to feel she is owned again, by an implied debt to someone that helped her. As a classic victim of abuse, she also has a very low self esteem, and she believes she deserves whatever misfortune life seems fit to throw upon her, including the beatings in Ash's hands. She even admits as much to Kvothe. When he tells her she deserves better than a patron that is beating her she replies with : "Who knows what i deserve..."

Denna has led a traumatizing life, and she has obviously been a victim of abuse. What we know about Denna is colored by Kvothe's comments and point of view, put some more objective facts can be inferred by her own words and the comments of other characters :

She almost died of pneumonia when she was a baby. In fact, according to her own words, she stopped breathing for two minutes and did die (i assume her heart stopped). She believes she should have stayed dead, but came back for a reason. When she was younger, she fell in love with someone that took her away and then abandoned her (probably Mometh if it's not another name for master Ash). This is implied in the story about the stones she tells to Kvothe near the end of the WMF. That's also an important part of the reason she bolts so easily, not out of indifference but out of insecurity. She then was forced to prostitution in order to survive. She was found and helped by a mentor that taught her how to behave, dress and talk in order to become a courtesan for the rich. According to what she says to the young prostitute she saves, this way she can get gifts instead of money and been treated as a lady instead of a common prostitute. She also remarks that :

“If they want more than you’re willing to give, that’s the only way. You leave, quick and quiet in the night."

offering one more explanation for her sudden disappearances.

Kvothe think she is cruel but that's not true at all. She gives her earings to that noble poet to clear his debt, she helps a prostitude she doesn't even know, and she obviously feels guilt about the way she acts (which a truly cruel person doesn't). In the WMF she tells to Kvothe :

“Sometimes I leave,quick and quiet in the night.”

“It’s what I do, I leave. No word or warning first. No explanation after. Sometimes it’s the only thing that I can do.”

“I hope you know without my telling you, I hope I don’t need to say it ...”

“But for what it’s worth, I am sorry.”

Another fact that can add some perspective to her life is that according to Deoh (who was in love with her at that time), two years ago Denna led the same life she leads today. When Deoh said that to Kvothe, Kvothe was 15 and Denna is probably one year older than him, which means that she was a courtesan at 14, so her troubles started even earlier.

As for their relationship, it's obvious that she really cares about him. According to Wil she finds him more often than he finds her, which is a sign that she is looking for him more often than he is searching for her. She also makes him a gift that's worth as much money as she would need to live comfortably for a few years. It's not just the money, it's the sacrifices to her person and her dignity she had to make to earn that money, giving the impression that in her mind Kvothe is more important than herself.

According to what she tells him when she is drugged in Trebor :

"You're important with your

green eyes looking at me like I mean something. It's okay that you have better things to do. It's enough

that I get you sometimes. Once in a while. I know I'm lucky for that, to get you just a little."

So she obviously doesn't truly believe he sees her romantically and she also doesn't think she deserves him. That last one points to the behavior of a victim of abuse, she cares about him but doesn't think she deserves happiness. Despite all that, till their fight in Vint, she is constantly encouraging Kvothe to be bolder towards her, in indirect ways (the recurring seven words joke she tells him for example) and in one or two occasions in a completely direct manner.

The fact that Kvothe doesn't really have a clue about how Denna thinks, despite knowing a fair bit about her background is obvious in their fight. He not only says all the wrong things to her, the present Kvothe remarks that he still doesn't know what could he do differently to make things better.

And then come the rumors about Felurian and his constant wenching. You have to understand that she spends her time with other men as a means to survive, she doesn't see this as a betrayal to Kvothe. Kvothe's doings on the other hand are a form of betrayal. She has been waiting for him to do something for 2 years and he choses to bang half of Imre before making a move towards her. She knows he cares about her, but how can a girl that has serious trust issues trust him? It's not just his behavior with women either. She knows that he has important things in his life, she might not know about the Chandrian but she can see that he has set an important goal in his life and everything else will have to come second or third.

And then there is music. She comments to Kvothe that no one ever cared about her as much as he cares about his lute and he doesn't even bother correcting her.

[Gaston de Foix]

[EDIT] By the way, is anyone else impressed with Fenton? He's only one rank below Kvothe in Elxa Dal's advanced sympathy class. He made Re'lar about the same time Kvothe did, though I suspect he spent some time as an e'lir. He was invited to Elodin's naming class. I get the feeling that he's like Kvothe, only slightly less brilliant and more conventional.

Teaspoon I agree with everything you've said. Auri isn't Fae. Perhaps she travels back and forth from Fae? There is something strange in the way she manages to completely avoid the bone-tar in the Underthing.

I was actually tremendously impressed with Fenton. He actually does manage to take the top-ranked spot from Kvothe in Advanced Sympathy near the end of WMF (Kvothe hints it's Denna-trouble but I think he's just making excuses). He totally deserves his own trilogy and his own chronicler.

[polishgenius]

I didn't know it has been brought up before, sorry. As for "Remmen", my theory is that if Bast is Kvothe's son, Kvothe isn't aware of this. Besides, even if Kvothe knew, he could have half a hundred reasons not to want to share this information with Chronicler and thus history.

I must be the only one here that thinks that Denna is the most interesting character in the book... As for the "random chances", i don't think Denna is even aware she is manipulated. The current Kvothe probably knows, but since the Kvothe of the past didn't make the connection he doesn't mention it in the story.

While we don't know much about Denna's past, the things we do know don't really point to such a direct connection with the Chandrian. It's almost certain that the Chandrian have taken an interest on her. Maybe they manipulate her in order to steer Kvothe to their purpose, maybe she is a descendant of Larne and Lyra, maybe she looks like Lyra, who knows ? We don't have allot to go by at this point. Whatever the reason is, she doesn't seem to be aware of it either.

Denna had pneumonia when she was a baby, that's why she has bad lungs.

The reason she is loyal to Master Ash is twofold. She wants to succeed in her own way, gaining her patron without help from anyone else (including Kvothe) and she thinks she doesn't deserve better. She has been owned in the past (probably when she was a prostitute) and so she doesn't wan't to feel she is owned again, by an implied debt to someone that helped her. As a classic victim of abuse, she also has a very low self esteem, and she believes she deserves whatever misfortune life seems fit to throw upon her, including the beatings in Ash's hands. She even admits as much to Kvothe. When he tells her she deserves better than a patron that is beating her she replies with : "Who knows what i deserve..."

Denna has led a traumatizing life, and she has obviously been a victim of abuse. What we know about Denna is colored by Kvothe's comments and point of view, put some more objective facts can be inferred by her own words and the comments of other characters :

She almost died of pneumonia when she was a baby. In fact, according to her own words, she stopped breathing for two minutes and did die (i assume her heart stopped). She believes she should have stayed dead, but came back for a reason. When she was younger, she fell in love with someone that took her away and then abandoned her (probably Mometh if it's not another name for master Ash). This is implied in the story about the stones she tells to Kvothe near the end of the WMF. That's also an important part of the reason she bolts so easily, not out of indifference but out of insecurity. She then was forced to prostitution in order to survive. She was found and helped by a mentor that taught her how to behave, dress and talk in order to become a courtesan for the rich. According to what she says to the young prostitute she saves, this way she can get gifts instead of money and been treated as a lady instead of a common prostitute. She also remarks that :

“If they want more than you’re willing to give, that’s the only way. You leave, quick and quiet in the night."

offering one more explanation for her sudden disappearances.

Kvothe think she is cruel but that's not true at all. She gives her earings to that noble poet to clear his debt, she helps a prostitude she doesn't even know, and she obviously feels guilt about the way she acts (which a truly cruel person doesn't). In the WMF she tells to Kvothe :

“Sometimes I leave,quick and quiet in the night.”

“It’s what I do, I leave. No word or warning first. No explanation after. Sometimes it’s the only thing that I can do.”

“I hope you know without my telling you, I hope I don’t need to say it ...”

“But for what it’s worth, I am sorry.”

Another fact that can add some perspective to her life is that according to Deoh (who was in love with her at that time), two years ago Denna led the same life she leads today. When Deoh said that to Kvothe, Kvothe was 15 and Denna is probably one year older than him, which means that she was a courtesan at 14, so her troubles started even earlier.

As for their relationship, it's obvious that she really cares about him. According to Wil she finds him more often than he finds her, which is a sign that she is looking for him more often than he is searching for her. She also makes him a gift that's worth as much money as she would need to live comfortably for a few years. It's not just the money, it's the sacrifices to her person and her dignity she had to make to earn that money, giving the impression that in her mind Kvothe is more important than herself.

According to what she tells him when she is drugged in Trebor :

"You're important with your

green eyes looking at me like I mean something. It's okay that you have better things to do. It's enough

that I get you sometimes. Once in a while. I know I'm lucky for that, to get you just a little."

So she obviously doesn't truly believe he sees her romantically and she also doesn't think she deserves him. That last one points to the behavior of a victim of abuse, she cares about him but doesn't think she deserves happiness. Despite all that, till their fight in Vint, she is constantly encouraging Kvothe to be bolder towards her, in indirect ways (the recurring seven words joke she tells him for example) and in one or two occasions in a completely direct manner.

The fact that Kvothe doesn't really have a clue about how Denna thinks, despite knowing a fair bit about her background is obvious in their fight. He not only says all the wrong things to her, the present Kvothe remarks that he still doesn't know what could he do differently to make things better.

And then come the rumors about Felurian and his constant wenching. You have to understand that she spends her time with other men as a means to survive, she doesn't see this as a betrayal to Kvothe. Kvothe's doings on the other hand are a form of betrayal. She has been waiting for him to do something for 2 years and he choses to bang half of Imre before making a move towards her. She knows he cares about her, but how can a girl that has serious trust issues trust him? It's not just his behavior with women either. She knows that he has important things in his life, she might not know about the Chandrian but she can see that he has set an important goal in his life and everything else will have to come second or third.

And then there is music. She comments to Kvothe that no one ever cared about her as much as he cares about his lute and he doesn't even bother correcting her.

It makes me think; is the big betrayal that so much apparently hinges on not by of Kvothe by Denna but of Denna by Kvothe?

I also have a theory that it might not involve Denna at all but Auri - Kvothe seems to trust her in ways he doesn't Denna and he clearly sees her as an innocent to protect too, but she does seem more switched on than she plays and there are definite hints that she's playing Kvothe in some way, what with the key, coin and candle. It strikes me as odd that, even if he was expelled, Kvothe doesn't appear to care much about his promise to Auri to not leave the University partly because of her, and finding out that she's manipulated him could easily explain that.

There's an interesting contrast between the more-innocent-than-she-seems Denna and the perhaps-less-innocent-than-she-seems Auri.

[SkiesOfAzel]

It makes me think; is the big betrayal that so much apparently hinges on not by of Kvothe by Denna but of Denna by Kvothe?

I also have a theory that it might not involve Denna at all but Auri - Kvothe seems to trust her in ways he doesn't Denna and he clearly sees her as an innocent to protect too, but she does seem more switched on than she plays and there are definite hints that she's playing Kvothe in some way, what with the key, coin and candle. It strikes me as odd that, even if he was expelled, Kvothe doesn't appear to care much about his promise to Auri to not leave the University partly because of her, and finding out that she's manipulated him could easily explain that.

There's an interesting contrast between the more-innocent-than-she-seems Denna and the perhaps-less-innocent-than-she-seems Auri.

Don't get me wrong, i do believe that Denna will be turned against Kvothe, PR is melodramatic like that ;). There is also her surfacing interest in magic ... As for the betrayal towards Kvothe (he clearly says "i was betrayed"), i think sometimes the obvious explanation is the correct one, he is probably talking about Brenton. As for Denna, there is almost constant foreshadowing that things will go bad, and Kvothe seems not only sad about it, it seems to me that he shows signs of guilt as well. Besides, between the two of them the vulnerable one is Denna, Patrick has been trying to establish that from the start, so it makes sense that Kvothe will eventually hurt her. In some ways he's already started doing exactly that with their fight in Vint.

In Skapri's story it was implied that Larne had something to do with/was responsible for Lyra's death, and there are many analogies between the past and Kvothe's story concerning events as well as characters. Besides the Kvothe parallels with both Larne and Selitos, we have Auri's Taborlian gifts, Papet's insistence on helping Kvothe to learn seing instead of looking (he reminded me of the hermit in Jax's story) and so on and so forth.