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Brude

Game of Thrones/Borgias Throwdown

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Why was this thread moved to the GoT's forum? If this has to be the case, can someone create a separate thread to discuss 'the Borgias'?

The thread was never moved, I started it here. I guess it could easily have been put into Entertainment, but I think it's fair to put it here, too, since it's about the shows going head-to-head (or at least their posters going head-to-head). Also, some people might not be going down to Ent. much, and it's a good way to inform them about another similar show they might like.

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Brude's tastes are usually pretty good and phrases like "better than Boardwalk empire" definitely has my attention. I'm sorely tempted to see where this preview is floating around. Looks like a a good spring for TV :)

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The thread was never moved, I started it here. I guess it could easily have been put into Entertainment, but I think it's fair to put it here, too, since it's about the shows going head-to-head (or at least their posters going head-to-head). Also, some people might not be going down to Ent. much, and it's a good way to inform them about another similar show they might like.

I agree; had it been in Entertainment, I'd never have caught it.

Also, this thread can be a fertile field for comparisons. Borgias = Lannisters? Overbearing ambitious charismatic father, affectionate siblings, uhm... no Tyrion, but just from the promos the younger brother Juan could be the loose(st) cannon of the family.

Pity that I know practically nothing about that part of Italian history, but this series might push me to research. From the portraits, Cesare is the one who seems most unlike to the original, but maybe it's because he's presented from an early age and will grow into the character, also looks-wise.

ETA: Goof: historically Juan was the eldest brother. The actor playing him looks so youthful, that's the reason of my confusion. See, I've already begun the research. :)

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Critics who have seen several episodes of the Borgias are, so far as I've seen (I've seen comments from four or five via Twitter so far), almost uniformly down on it. I've read the first episode is beautifully composed and shot (that's Jordan for you), but apparently after that it's not so good.

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I have only read comments on the pilot and the vast majority of them is praise for every department. But I can't imagine how bad it can go after that since Neil Jordan continues to write and produce the episodes, meaning he still has a heavy involvement in the whole project. Don't forget he has been working on it for almost ten years and at different times the project had attracted such talent as Anthony Hopkins, Christina Ricci, Colin Farrell, Ian McKellen, Ewan McGregor, John Malkovich, Jean Reno and Antonio Banderas.

As for the timeslots, the first episode of "The Borgias" will air on April 3rd at 9 pm but after that it will move to 10 pm and "Game of Thrones" will be on at 9 pm, followed by "Treme" at 10 pm.

*23 days to go for the premiere. (I thought waiting would be easier and counting the days certainly doesn't help!)

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Entertainment Weekly's Dalton Ross says he saw the first 2 episodes of GoT and liked it. OTOH, he's seen multiple episodes of Camelot and Borgias and is not a fan. James Poniewozik at TIME disliked The Borgias and Camelot, indicating he'd be much less charitable to them than he is to Mildred Pierce (he referred to having to write one of those if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing interview in regard to MP; i.e., he sees the merit but it's not to his personal tastes, where as it seems he doesn't see much merit to the other two shows). Alan Sepinwall says he's writing a if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing reviews of both Camelot and The Borgias.

I've not forgotten anything regarding Jordan. I am a great fan of his. But not everything he does is going to be gold.

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The thread was never moved, I started it here.

*blinks* Sorry Brude...mental lapse.

I'm not much moved by what critics have to say, so I'll watch the following episodes and judge for myself. I'd advise everyone else do the same. :thumbsup: Personally, I found 'Boardwalk Empire' boring. I'd be satisfied if it was better than the Tudors.

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Entertainment Weekly's Dalton Ross says he saw the first 2 episodes of GoT and liked it. OTOH, he's seen multiple episodes of Camelot and Borgias and is not a fan. James Poniewozik at TIME disliked The Borgias and Camelot, indicating he'd be much less charitable to them than he is to Mildred Pierce (he referred to having to write one of those if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing interview in regard to MP; i.e., he sees the merit but it's not to his personal tastes, where as it seems he doesn't see much merit to the other two shows). Alan Sepinwall says he's writing a if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing reviews of both Camelot and The Borgias.

I've not forgotten anything regarding Jordan. I am a great fan of his. But not everything he does is going to be gold.

Interesting! I trust Poniewozik a LOT - he's definitely the best television critic out there and has taste that is comparable to my own - I've actually written several papers on his work. He's also a big fan of GRRM's books and recently interviewed him regarding the show. I hadn't heard any negatives about Borgias yet but I also hadn't been looking too hard. I will still give it a try, but I'm certainly less optimistic about it now.

As for Camelot, just saw a commercial for it for the first time. Some of it looked decent, some not so much. Hard to tell from thirty seconds, but not overly confident yet. Thank god for Netflix and their Starz dealio, don't have to pay for a subscription so I'll be able to check it out without shelling out anything.

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Entertainment Weekly's Dalton Ross says he saw the first 2 episodes of GoT and liked it. OTOH, he's seen multiple episodes of Camelot and Borgias and is not a fan. James Poniewozik at TIME disliked The Borgias and Camelot, indicating he'd be much less charitable to them than he is to Mildred Pierce (he referred to having to write one of those if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing interview in regard to MP; i.e., he sees the merit but it's not to his personal tastes, where as it seems he doesn't see much merit to the other two shows). Alan Sepinwall says he's writing a if-you-like-that-sort-of-thing reviews of both Camelot and The Borgias.

I've not forgotten anything regarding Jordan. I am a great fan of his. But not everything he does is going to be gold.

We all know how some things work. "Game of Thrones" is a series with a massive fan base, due to the books of course but not only: Take me for instance. I haven't even read a single page of the books and I am hooked ever since they announced the project, almost two years back (at least that's when I learned about it). The press will go along with that, nobody wants to read something that heavily criticizes the thing they love (most critics have been the book's readers too). By swift contrast, when I type "The Borgias" or "Borgia" in the EW.com search machine, it crashes and an error warning appears. It is as if it doesn't exist! But maybe that's just my own browser's fault.

And then you have "Camelot" and "The Borgias" (which shouldn't even appear in the same sentence in my opinion but it fits the point I am making now). Both are considered "The Tudors" follow-ups (Michael Hirst is indeed involved in "Camelot" and was reported to be involved in the making of "The Borgias", nevertheless his name is nowhere to be seen on the credits of the pilot at least), not a very flattering simile. Both are advertised as sex-filled dramas ("The Borgias" pilot had almost no nudity and sex, a little less than what the first half of the "Camelot" pilot had). And "Game of Thrones" is reported to be very graphic in its sex scenes, but nobody calls it "sex-filled". And if sex in a series is considered a catch for viewers why isn't violence the same kind of catch? It certainly works as a catch in videogames, why not in a television series?

Finally, we have the cast. "Game of Thrones" features a stellar cast (and we learned every single actor's name the minute after he was cast. How's that for coverage?): the amazing Sean Bean, the versatile Mark Addy, the seductive Lena Headey, the awesome Peter Dinklage and Aidan Gillen, Charles Dance, Harry Lloyd and Peter Vaughan, James Cosmo, Julian Glover, David Bradley and probably many others I may be forgetting (I only wrote about those I am excited about).

As for the "Camelot" cast? Joseph Fiennes, Eva Green, Jamie Campbell Bower, Claire Forlani, James Purefoy, Philip Winchester, Sean Pertwee, Sinead Cusack, Tamsin Edgerton and possibly others who have not yet been reported, because the press isn't just as interested. Can't that also be considered a talented and stellar cast?

And finally "The Borgias" cast: it stars a little someone called Jeremy "Academy-Award-And-Golden-Globe-Award-And-Emmy-Award-Winner" Irons along with David Oakes, Colm Feore, Joanne Whalley, Vernon Dobtcheff, Bosco Hogan, Simon McBurney, Peter Sullivan, Sean Harris, Lotte Verbeek, Holliday Grainger and veterans Derek Jacobi and Steven Berkoff. Isn't that also considered a very talented and all-star cast?

So, my final point is, with "Game of Thrones" overshadowing all the other epic productions (actually, "The Borgias" have the same budget as "Game of Thrones", spread on 9 episodes, instead of 10), how can someone be really objective towards the projects?

I apologize in advance for the long post and for my language being a little pugnacious or sardonic at certain parts but I am a huge Jeremy Irons fan and I am saddened to see his work (and a good work in my opinion) underestimated due to bad timing. Also, how cool would it be if he was cast as Tywin Lannister? I always imagined him in that part. Charles Dance is wonderful though too.

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Uhm, about that...

Starz has just announced that starting April 1st, new programming will only show up on Netflix 90 days after the original air date. I.E., no Camelot until July.

The general opinion is that Starz severely undervalued their programming when dealing with Netflix, because video-on-demand was still niche and has since exploded. A new deal will probably cost Netflix five times as much. The current deal with Starz ends in the middle of next year, and this announcement is actually being suggested as something Netflix has allowed Starz to do as a good-faith step before they enter negotiations for a new deal.

Urquhart,

I'm sure there's some fine casting, set design, costume design, VFX (I'm actually a Twitter acquaintance of one of the VFX guys), etc. for The Borgias.

I've no problem finding EW's articles on Borgias, BTW.

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Uhm, about that...

Starz has just announced that starting April 1st, new programming will only show up on Netflix 90 days after the original air date. I.E., no Camelot until July.

The general opinion is that Starz severely undervalued their programming when dealing with Netflix, because video-on-demand was still niche and has since exploded. A new deal will probably cost Netflix five times as much. The current deal with Starz ends in the middle of next year, and this announcement is actually being suggested as something Netflix has allowed Starz to do as a good-faith step before they enter negotiations for a new deal.

Urquhart,

I'm sure there's some fine casting, set design, costume design, VFX (I'm actually a Twitter acquaintance of one of the VFX guys), etc. for The Borgias.

I've no problem finding EW's articles on Borgias, BTW.

Would you please be kind enough to send me some? I don't seem to be able to access them apparently.

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I've seen loads of articles about Showtime's The Borgias. Not so many about the Canal + series "Borgia" which is really the only one I'm interested in. I just don't love the casting of the Showtime series. Irons is a good actor, but he's not Rodrigo Borgia, to me.

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I thought they were both on Sundays at 9PM?

dang they are.one question.. if someone doesn't watch got at 9pm, but he does it at 10 pm, is that person counted in the ratings/ number of viewers?

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I've seen loads of articles about Showtime's The Borgias. Not so many about the Canal + series "Borgia" which is really the only one I'm interested in. I just don't love the casting of the Showtime series. Irons is a good actor, but he's not Rodrigo Borgia, to me.

I am excited about the Canal+ Borgia project too, although I fear it may look like the poor man's Showtime version, what with all the unknowns in the cast and the lesser budget. But I 've heard it will strive for historical authenticity, which is always a good thing, so long as they don't make it like a documentary but something more dramatic and interesting than that.

I have checked again, "Game of Thrones" airs Sundays, 9 pm while "The Borgias" airs Sundays, 10 pm (only the premiere will be on at 9 pm due to the double length).

By the way, are there any news on renewal yet? I had read some months ago that the second season renewal by HBO was a done deal and it would be announced at the TCA Winter Tour 2011, but no such thing happened.

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No, no renewals at this time for any of the shows discussed for this thread. Everyone's pretty positive about GoT's prospects, but HBO won't make an official decision for awhile. Not before the premiere, I'm guessing.

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I have seen a lot of people mentioning watching Camelot on Netflix, and I just thought I should mention, in case others didn't know, starting April 1st Starz will be implementing a 90-day delay for original programming between when things air on Starz and when they are on Netflix. So that means Camelot, which starts April 1st, will be delayed 90 days before it is on Netflix.

ETA: oh I see Ran beat me to the news.

And it is good to see that The Borgias and GoT will not air at the exact same time. It allows people who are interested to watch both.

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Don't most people who have cable these days have DVR service, as well? Everyone I know does, but everyone here seems to keep worrying about the shows possibly airing at the same time. There's also OnDemand to rectify that, though it takes a day for them to put things up, usually, and if you are stuck with crappy Time Warner, like me, they for some reason don't have the premium channels like HBO in HD OnDemand, which is just strange.

Still, there are options and if someone has cable but does not spent a bit extra for the DVR service of some sort, they are really missing out on some incredible convenience.

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Don't most people who have cable these days have DVR service, as well? Everyone I know does, but everyone here seems to keep worrying about the shows possibly airing at the same time. There's also OnDemand to rectify that, though it takes a day for them to put things up, usually, and if you are stuck with crappy Time Warner, like me, they for some reason don't have the premium channels like HBO in HD OnDemand, which is just strange.

Still, there are options and if someone has cable but does not spent a bit extra for the DVR service of some sort, they are really missing out on some incredible convenience.

Yes but for ratings that are counted and matter (although ratings certainly don't matter that much to HBO or Showtime) only live viewing plus same-day DVR viewing is counted. So if these two shows were running directly head-to-head then I think we would see different ratings numbers than if they are at separate times.

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Another critic, Jace Lacobs (writes for The Daily Beast and his own blog) weighs in, not "particularly taken" with either Camelot or The Borgias. I'm guessing the latter will prove to be better than the former, though.

ETA: And just for keeping track of things, Daniel Fienberg at HitFix says that what he saw of Camelot is "definitely skippable", while Alyssa Rosenberg at the Atlantic says that it's "AGONIZINGLY BAD". Oops. I think Camelot is just going to be a bit of brain candy, at best. But you know, the first few episodes of Spartacus were really rough (well, the pilot was really rough, and the rest were somewhat rough) and it straightened out. So, who knows.

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Another critic, Jace Labos (writes for The Daily Beast and his own blog) weighs in, not "particularly taken" with either Camelot or The Borgias. I'm guessing the latter will prove to be better than the former, though.

ETA: And just for keeping track of things, Daniel Fienberg at HitFix says that what he saw of Camelot is "definitely skippable", while Alyssa Rosenberg at the Atlantic says that it's "AGONIZINGLY BAD". Oops. I think Camelot is just going to be a bit of brain candy, at best. But you know, the first few episodes of Spartacus were really rough (well, the pilot was really rough, and the rest were somewhat rough) and it straightened out. So, who knows.

Poor "Camelot", it is getting seriously chastised. I actually found it fun but it isn't something that will resonate.

And Jace Lacobs is just determined not to like "The Borgias" (I like how casual viewers ask him to reconsider because they personally liked it), halfway throught he first episode and already mourning about being obliged to see the next 3 screeners. I guess papal politics is not for everybody, but if anyone else compares it to "The Tudors" again (which I deeply despised) means he hasn't seen even a second of it. The good thing is he raves about "Game of Thrones" but that was a given.

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