The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Astalon]

I just posted this in the other thread on accident. (sorry, I'm an idiot)

I've gone through all of the last thread and most of this one, and have to say I really feel like reading the books again after being made aware of everything I missed.

Anyway, here's some things I was wondering that as far as I'm aware of weren't addressed.

1) What was up with the Modegan coin that Kvothe found in his possession near the end of WMF? There was hardly any mention of it except that he didn't have any idea how he got it, and it was quickly dismissed, but it seems a bit too specific to be utterly random nah? It wasn't the one that Auri gave him earlier, because he doesn't recognize it or know how he got it. Any thoughts?

2) It's obvious from when Denna kills the dude that's messing with the girl in Severen that she is a badass, and knows how to use her knife, and generally does not get pushed around. If that's the case... Why does she let Master Ash/Bredon beat her? Yeah she needs a patron, but I think she's not dumb and that's a bit excessive even for her. There's some mention that she feels she deserves it, but again that seems like a LOT for just being a hooker. Maybe she knows what she's doing by involving herself with Bredon/the Chandrian is evil, and that's why she feels like she deserves to be beaten?

3) Is the fact that Kvothe's parents were never officially married possibly relevant to the plot, and his mother being the Lockless heir? I remember thinking when I read that part that it was a bit unnecessary. Maybe no priest would agree to marry them because the Lockless family carries so much power, and there would be repercussions?

I'm probably just grasping at strings here with all 3, but hey, it's fun.

One more thing. The Cthaeh mentions that the Masters of the University have some knowledge of the Amyr (unless I'm mistaken) that they would not divulge to Kvothe. We also know that Elodin knows what's behind the Valeritas door in the Archives, but refuses to divulge that to Kvothe. In my mind this strengthens the connection between the door and Amyr: I think most likely what's behind the door is all the useful information on the Chandrian and/or the Amyr.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

1) What was up with the Modegan coin that Kvothe found in his possession near the end of WMF? There was hardly any mention of it except that he didn't have any idea how he got it, and it was quickly dismissed, but it seems a bit too specific to be utterly random nah? It wasn't the one that Auri gave him earlier, because he doesn't recognize it or know how he got it. Any thoughts?

I live in Texas and sometimes find Canadian pennies in my change. I think it's just meant to be random.

2) It's obvious from when Denna kills the dude that's messing with the girl in Severen that she is a badass, and knows how to use her knife, and generally does not get pushed around. If that's the case... Why does she let Master Ash/Bredon beat her? Yeah she needs a patron, but I think she's not dumb and that's a bit excessive even for her. There's some mention that she feels she deserves it, but again that seems like a LOT for just being a hooker. Maybe she knows what she's doing by involving herself with Bredon/the Chandrian is evil, and that's why she feels like she deserves to be beaten?

Someone theorized that perhaps Master Ash is not beating her in the traditional sense but is actually teaching her swordplay or martial arts. That would allow what the Cthaeh said to be technically true while still properly distorting the meaning, just as Bast said it would.

3) Is the fact that Kvothe's parents were never officially married possibly relevant to the plot, and his mother being the Lockless heir? I remember thinking when I read that part that it was a bit unnecessary. Maybe no priest would agree to marry them because the Lockless family carries so much power, and there would be repercussions?

I would say no. In a society such as the one in the books, I doubt any efficient records exist, meaning that if Kvothe's parents acted married and told others that they were married (or just allowed it to be implied based on their lifestyle) then people would just go along with it. I don't see it making any difference, UNLESS Kvothe discovers his blood and is in some position to inherit, but then it comes out that he's actually a bastard and therefore cannot inherit.

One more thing. The Cthaeh mentions that the Masters of the University have some knowledge of the Amyr (unless I'm mistaken) that they would not divulge to Kvothe. We also know that Elodin knows what's behind the Valeritas door in the Archives, but refuses to divulge that to Kvothe. In my mind this strengthens the connection between the door and Amyr: I think most likely what's behind the door is all the useful information on the Chandrian and/or the Amyr.

Perhaps. But given the Cthaeh's nature, it's also possible that the knowledge that the Masters have is nothing more than children's stories that they don't share because, well, they're children's stories.

[jurble]

2) It's obvious from when Denna kills the dude that's messing with the girl in Severen that she is a badass, and knows how to use her knife, and generally does not get pushed around. If that's the case... Why does she let Master Ash/Bredon beat her? Yeah she needs a patron, but I think she's not dumb and that's a bit excessive even for her. There's some mention that she feels she deserves it, but again that seems like a LOT for just being a hooker. Maybe she knows what she's doing by involving herself with Bredon/the Chandrian is evil, and that's why she feels like she deserves to be beaten?

Read the picnic scene Denna has with Kvothe. She tries to listen for the name of stone, though she plays it off as a joke. Ash is trying to teach her Naming. Her injuries are the result of her training. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say his method involves beating her to awaken her sleeping mind, since trauma is a good way of getting it awake e.g. Kvothe's lute breaking.

[Volsungr]

Just finished the book, Overall I liked it, Rothfuss definitely knows how to pull you in, still parts of the narrative dragged.

I try not to anticipate plot points so I don't have any insight into the future shape of the novel.

I had one part of the story I found very irritating though, the Adem mercenary society. The adem make no sense at all and show a very poor understanding of the reality of martial arts, human sex differences, and how societies function. I found the philosophical side was interesting and for my money did capture allot of the feel of thinking around Tao and Gung fu besides that it was an incredible ill thought out attempt to explore some interesting cultural ideas.

The problem is off course the need in fantasy literature for some reason these days to promote the idea of female warriors. The idea that a certain type of martial art would result in women being better fighters then men is simple untenable. I have trained martial arts for 16 years, martial arts are about the application of force, proper position, timing and leverage allow you to express force as effectively as possible but you still have to have the capacity to develop force. When skill is equal the more athletic fighter wins, size and athleticism are assets in a fight like skill even is skill is far from equal if size and athleticism are also far from equal the bigger more athletic fighter will often win. In jujutisu I have never made it past white belt but I have taped brown belts in matches because I was 70 pounds heavior and more athletic. PRs Adem are all tiny and beautiful and feminine but of course this doesn't matter in a fight its ridiculous.

Furthermore there is a simple and obvious demographic reason that no society like the Adem has existed in human history or is ever likely to exist as long as women bear children. If you lose ten percent of the male population to death by warfare that will have basically no impact on the potential reproductive capacity of a population, if you lose 10 percent the female population in a pre-modern medicine era you are effectively losing about 10 percent of the population in the next generation, if that continue generation of generation you will soon cease to exist.

The free sexuality of the Adem combined with their lack of understanding of paternity and the idea of them sending out lots of female mercenaries takes this whole charade to the height or ridiculousness. Who would pay for a mercenaries service if at any time they might come up pregnant especially if the adem send out mixed sex companies(as they do).

The fact nobody seems to be pointing this out to be is baffling are we really so removed from our biology and the nature of premodern societies that this this level of ludicrous world building is not even commented on.

[Astalon]

Read the picnic scene Denna has with Kvothe. She tries to listen for the name of stone, though she plays it off as a joke. Ash is trying to teach her Naming. Her injuries are the result of her training. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say his method involves beating her to awaken her sleeping mind, since trauma is a good way of getting it awake e.g. Kvothe's lute breaking.

I feel this is unlikely. (I think she was telling the truth when she said she never told Ash about Kvothe. I think if she had told Ash, the Chandrian would know, and the Chandrian can't know about Kvothe at this point simply because he would be dead if they did, knowing as much as he knows about them.) Denna has proven that she doesn't mind asking Kvothe about magic and sympathy, so why would she never bring up naming with him? Master Ash would never even know about it.

Regardless, I think speculating as to the true intentions and abilities of Denna is something of a useless endeavor, as we don't seem to have enough information to go by at all. I do think it is safe to say that she is probably not intentionally trying to spy on Kvothe or sabotage him or anything of that sort. Beyond that all we really know is that Bredon wants something from her, she has a ring that means a lot to her, and knows a bit of Yllish. She is sadly undeveloped for such a prominent character.

[jurble]

Just finished the book, Overall I liked it, Rothfuss definitely knows how to pull you in, still parts of the narrative dragged.

I try not to anticipate plot points so I don't have any insight into the future shape of the novel.

I had one part of the story I found very irritating though, the Adem mercenary society. The adem make no sense at all and show a very poor understanding of the reality of martial arts, human sex differences, and how societies function. I found the philosophical side was interesting and for my money did capture allot of the feel of thinking around Tao and Gung fu besides that it was an incredible ill thought out attempt to explore some interesting cultural ideas.

The problem is off course the need in fantasy literature for some reason these days to promote the idea of female warriors. The idea that a certain type of martial art would result in women being better fighters then men is simple untenable. I have trained martial arts for 16 years, martial arts are about the application of force, proper position, timing and leverage allow you to express force as effectively as possible but you still have to have the capacity to develop force. When skill is equal the more athletic fighter wins, size and athleticism are assets in a fight like skill even is skill is far from equal if size and athleticism are also far from equal the bigger more athletic fighter will often win. In jujutisu I have never made it past white belt but I have taped brown belts in matches because I was 70 pounds heavior and more athletic. PRs Adem are all tiny and beautiful and feminine but of course this doesn't matter in a fight its ridiculous.

Furthermore there is a simple and obvious demographic reason that no society like the Adem has existed in human history or is ever likely to exist as long as women bear children. If you lose ten percent of the male population to death by warfare that will have basically no impact on the potential reproductive capacity of a population, if you lose 10 percent the female population in a pre-modern medicine era you are effectively losing about 10 percent of the population in the next generation, if that continue generation of generation you will soon cease to exist.

The free sexuality of the Adem combined with their lack of understanding of paternity and the idea of them sending out lots of female mercenaries takes this whole charade to the height or ridiculousness. Who would pay for a mercenaries service if at any time they might come up pregnant especially if the adem send out mixed sex companies(as they do).

The fact nobody seems to be pointing this out to be is baffling are we really so removed from our biology and the nature of premodern societies that this this level of ludicrous world building is not even commented on.

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

"A ginger that gets laid? Sure."

"A matriarchal warrior-society? HELL NO!"

[sckma]

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

"A ginger that gets laid? Sure."

"A matriarchal warrior-society? HELL NO!"

^What that person said. My thoughts exactly

[Skia]

Just want to add something to the theory of Auri being a princess "stolen back from sleeping barrow kings." Didn't Fela while talking with Kvothe about the Door in the Archives said she once dreamt that Valaritas is the name of an ancient king? Just remembered.

[Slick Mongoose]

Maybe no priest would agree to marry them because the Lockless family carries so much power, and there would be repercussions?

She didn't want to get married, either because she knew it would cause trouble, or she just didn't want to.

I still think he asked her to marry him with that song, and she said no.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jurble,

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

"A ginger that gets laid? Sure."

"A matriarchal warrior-society? HELL NO!"

Thirded.

[Grogsmash]

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

"A ginger that gets laid? Sure."

"A matriarchal warrior-society? HELL NO!"

I also was struck at how silly the Adem society was. All those other things are different from our society, but they are supposed to be different. The Adem society on the other hand was supposed to be just a group of humans raised differently.

A matriarchal society that didn't understand basic reproductive facts? I mean, for gods sake they have farm animals.

A warrior-society where reach and strength doesn't matter? It doesn't even make sense in the story since the one girl has to use a special break-lion to work against stronger people.

A society where sex is common yet zero venereal diseases?

Again, this is from a group that is supposed to be in every way just normal humans without any magic. I am guessing the author wanted to try his hand at creating a unique culture but it just felt utterly forced and silly.

[thistlepong]

3) Is the fact that Kvothe's parents were never officially married possibly relevant to the plot, and his mother being the Lockless heir?

If and only if it comes to inheritance, yes. Not only will he be inelligible, his maternity will be unverifiable.

One more thing. The Cthaeh mentions that the Masters of the University have some knowledge of the Amyr (unless I'm mistaken) that they would not divulge to Kvothe.

"Why this sudden need? The masters at the University might might know the answers you're looking for. But they wouldn't tell you even if you did ask, which you won't.

The Cthaeh talks a lot of scat, uses a lot of condidtionals, and steers the conversation to and around topics. I think grinachu asked about this in WMFII. Kvothe probably won't ask, now. I'm sure there's important stuff buried in its gibberish, but it's not 100% accurate predictive exposition.

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

Motion passes. The ctiticism is valid, but:

Kvothe himself regarding Felurian: "Was I going to start quibbling now?"

Furthermore, given Shehyn's assertion that the people of the empire were what the Adem were before they were the Adem and the utter lack of surprise when he stopped the wind during his trial, there's a distinct possibility that much of their ability rests on seeing. Wild speculation, I know.

There's also the notible mention of fictional travelogues in both books. Perhaps we should be thankful that the Adem didn't learn the Lethani at the hoof of the Houyhnhnms.

She tries to listen for the name of stone, though she plays it off as a joke.

:There's no emoticon for appreciative grunt:

[reiver]

Is this still intending to be a trilogy? I enjoyed the book but it felt rather directionless for what was supposed to be the second part of a trilogy. Reminded me of WoT a bit in that it ambled along nicely enough but without much focus or progress.

The idea that we weren't really getting anywhere did nag at me a bit due to the worry about how far there was to go.

[Stego]

"Magic? Reasonable."

"Monstrous spiders and fire-breathing lizards? Reasonable."

"Skin-stealing Faeries? Fine by me."

"Dude who lives in a tree and sees the future? Whatevs."

"A ginger that gets laid? Sure."

"A matriarchal warrior-society? HELL NO!"

Jurble has tigers blood.

[Gaston de Foix]

:There's no emoticon for appreciative grunt:

I thought Denna was talking obliquely about herself rather trying to listen to the Name of stone.

[thistlepong]

I thought Denna was talking obliquely about herself rather trying to listen to the Name of stone.

Me, too. Per implied request, I went back and reread it. Later, Kvothe asks about the sunning stone and she says, "This one is telling me what it is like to live in the water and not be a fish." It's impossible to un-see it, now. She anticipates both of his significant questions, answering one (to which he's completely oblivious) and heading off the other.

I'm not nodding in fervent agreement or anything. But I'm occasionally fond of non-standard interpretations.

If you do take a look at it, any guesses what she means to say here?

"Do you bring all of them h-"

[Cause]

Hey

Can someone run me through the evidence that Bredon is actually master Ash? I failed to note that at all.

I also read somewhere that Denna's Yillish knots in her hair were a kind of magic. I had assumed it was just a fancy decoration. Did I miss this as well.

Lastly I have my own theory. Master Lorren is connected to the Amyr. We know all knowledge of the Amyr is being culled from the great libaries of the world. Even the Archives, the greatest library in the world, has not escaped. Who has access to the Archives though? University students, Scrivs, Masters and people with written permission by Lorren. It seems quite secure against people just walking out with books. Further when Kvothe first enters the archives and tries to learn about the Amyr and Chandrian Master Lorren discourages him. He says its to keep him looking like a child but what if its to stop him discovering info about the amyr or alerting Scrivs and Kvothe to the Amyr Cull. Its pointless conjecture past this point but I imagine the Scrivs acquisition department would also be a great place for active Amyr agents to operate.

[AverageGuy]

At the end of chapter 7, in The name of the Wind, Kvothe's father tells him that his name, Kvothe, means "to know". I do not recall reading anywhere else that it meant disaster.

Kvothe does mean "to know." Kote, however, either means "disaster" or "expect." Probably disaster.

The fact nobody seems to be pointing this out to be is baffling

There are enough obvious issues with the Adem I didn't even bother with them, e.g. Kvothe becoming a better warrior than most non-Adem in less than a year.

Can someone run me through the evidence that Bredon is actually master Ash? I failed to note that at all.

Master Ash is an older man who uses a walking stick and is a surprisingly good dancer. Bredon carries a walking stick and has recently taken up dancing. These are the things I can remember off the top of my head, but there may be other clues people have noted in the threads.

I also read somewhere that Denna's Yillish knots in her hair were a kind of magic. I had assumed it was just a fancy decoration. Did I miss this as well.

I've written a couple posts on this. In the interests of not cluttering this thread up too much with copy/paste:

Relevant quotes on "magic" Yllish knots

These are the passages most directly concerned with Denna and written magic, the third in particular relates to her braids. But there are three other times I can think of when her braids are focused on. First, when Kvothe takes her to the barn and says he won't seduce her, she starts to braid her hair. Second, when she and Kvothe fight over her song, she undoes her old braids and puts up new ones. Third, during their picnic on the riverbank, she makes her, "Don't talk to me," braid, though Kvothe can read them at that point and she doesn't finish it.

I've said before that I don't think it actually works, but I may be wrong.

[rdbrown]

So after reading WMF and then reading these threads, then re-reading NOTW and now re-reading WMF, I have some more thoughts.

This is fairly obvious even from NOTW, but I think it deserves mentioning... I think we tend to think of Kvothe as a capital H Hero because this is his story and normally that is the case. But really, he isn't a Hero... he might be a hero sometimes, like saving Fela, slaying the Draccus, etc. but overall, it is clear he has done much more harm to the world than good.

The text tells us that there is a precedent for a sort of evil that can not die, only be contained. The Heroes of the past have contained that evil and locked it away behind stone doors. Now along comes Kvothe, with his tragic flaws- impatience and curiosity- and it appears as though he opens them. Pure Folly.

A bit of wild speculation from me is that because he does this, someone or someones more powerful than him (Elodin, + Lorren, Dal?) strip him of his power. And what do we know of how that is usually done in this world? They contain that power and lock it away... in a thrice locked chest? Now, to speculate even more wildly, is it possible that the rumours of a new Chandrian are somewhat accurate? I think we have plenty of reason to question Kvothe's judgment, added to the fact that he is the one telling us his story. Maybe it IS much, much better off for the world if he does not have any power? I'm not saying he is evil, but it can be argued that Lanre/Haliax is not evil so much as an extreme nihilist with too much power.

Even if that isn't the case, I think it is a bit sad that at least in this trilogy, we aren't going to get a true Hero's tale. Even if Kvothe is able to redeem himself, regain his powers, and try to re-contain what he let out, that certainly wouldn't take place in this series.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

rdbrown,

I also think we are reading a tragedy, not a "hero's journey".